LauraT7

Ryan - "An adult in my troop has told me they have suffered and it is not their job to make them listen, it is mine. I asked him why he was there then." Hooray for that leader! In a truly boy-lead troop - it IS your job as the SPL to 'lead' the boys. the adults are there to drive you where you need to go, be mentors and advisors to you, provide the credit cards and checkbook signatures when needed - and give your parents peace of mind. From your other posts, though, I know you have the difficult task of dealing with mostly younger boys, many of them ADHD and the rest plain excitable and disruptive as many first-year scouts are. they are used to CUBS - which IS adult lead - and I have seen from our own troop - THEY have a problem in changing patterns and accepting another boy leading them - or taking responsibility for themselves. also - they are used to home - Mom and Dad enforce the rules there - so they automatically transfer to another adult that responsibility. What you might do is sit down and talk to your adult leaders. Ask them to 'back' you more visibly. Have them make a 'show' in front of the younger boys that THEY defer to the PLC's leadership. for example - even though the adults "know" the plans for the outing - have them refer all things to the appropriate boy leader. When someone wants to know 'what's for dinner? and Who's cooking?' the adult should say - "I dunno - ask PL Phil." When the kid asks the adult "is it OK if we go down to the beach?" the adult should respond, "Lets ask SPL Ryan what the plans are next" When someone says "Where's the dutch oven?" the boy quatermaster should answer - NOT the adult - (even if they know) It will take a little while - habits are hard to break - and it's amazing to me how "stuck" even young people can get to their expectations! But eventually, they'll get the message (that the adults don't know anything, but YOU do! LOL!) As for the quiet time - same thing. for starters - you might ask an adult to accompany you quietly - while YOU go around tent to tent and explain the rules. Their presence should lend authority - but the message is from YOU. You have a very small group - but in a larger group - you can make the PATROL responsible for the trouble makers. Give the whole patrol a punishment if the troublemakers don't calm down, make the PL keep a thumb on his patrol. Believe me - peer pressure will work quickly on the few noisy ones! - they may threaten to duct tape their mouths shut next outing! Come up with a reward or punishment for noise - the first quiet tent gets served breakfast first? the noisy tent has to be 'mules' and lug troop equipment back to the trailer in the morning? make clear rules and limits and STICK TO THEM. 1 warning, then a consequence. One bit of advice though - don't make the punishments personal - like doing the adults' work - that puts the 'authority' back on the adults. also don't make them regular duties - like dishwashing or latrine cleaning- those are jobs that should be handled by duty roster. If you make those jobs punishments, then the boys that are assigned the duty through regular rotation, feel THEY are being punished for no reason. so chose a punishment that is OUTSIDE the normal camp duties. good luck!

Most of us are probably heading off to camp in the next few weeks, so maybe this is a little late - But does anyone have any tips or suggestions, bright ideas to make camp more fun or go more smoothly for a troop? For example: Our troop has a file box with a file for each boy that contains the print out from Troopmaster showing his advancement record so far, a list & the blue cards for the badges he requested to work on at camp, and any other pertinent info - such as he wants to work on BSA lifegaurd, or if he has special skills to share with the younger boys (some are really good at Nature ID or orienteering, etc). Behind all the files are at least two copies of the Merit badge booklets for all badges offered at that camp - and any that might be done in campsite. and a print out of merit badge counselors in the troop and the badges they cover. the box is kept out of the weather - but available for all the boys & leaders at any time. If a boy comes back to the campsite and has nothing to do - he can pull out his file and work on something - like identifying plants for a requirement. Or he can pull out a badge book and see whether he wants to add it to his list. the ASM's mark on the troopmaster sheets any requirements that were finished at camp (as well as marking the boys' books)and the finished blue cards go back in the boys file - which makes it easier for the Advancement chair to update the records when we get back. this is especially helpful for us, as we attend two camps and have different leaders throughout the 2 weeks. Another thing we do is bring a set of plastic coat hangers to hang up inside the shelter - for each boy to hang his uniform shirt on - out of the weather. As they wear them every day for dinner (and one camp requires them for breakfast AND dinner) - this keeps them looking a little fresher and airs them out. What 'tricks of the trade' work for your troop?

Elvis was sighted at the Statue of Liberty? WOW! did his purple suit have lots of sequins? did you get an autograph????? Are you sure he's not muslim? maybe he's a SPY! ;-)

I think that no matter what limits someone puts on something, the ones who are likely to bend the rules will find a way around even those limits. And if a counsel tries to add additional limits - it could cause as many problems as the limits are intended to address. Our troop used to just wait and let adults volunteer for Merit Badge counseling when they felt moved to do so. But our boys had such a hard time getting hold of merit badge counselors outside of the troop (our district "list" was nonexistant - so outdated that most were no longer active) that we started looking for merit badge counselors from within the troop adults and actively recruiting them. It is sad to say that most people aren't into volunteering - those of us deeply involved in scouting are a rare breed. Average people are terrified of being roped into something bigger than they can handle, so many of our badge counselors have limited themselves to our troop only. If they were forced to work with ALL troops in the district - many would not have said 'yes'. many of our troop leaders - myself included - have stretched their capabilities to cover as many badges as their skills make possible. We may not be 'experts' or "professionals" in every field - but we know enough to effectively follow the requirements of the badges we counsel. We also try to double up whenever possible - so that adults can try to avoid counseling their own sons if they feel uncomfortable with doing so. I AM available to other troops - but I have never gotten a call from anyone outside of my troop - I guess because our district has not gotten the 'list' out to troops since before i joined three years ago. the one time my son DID get hold of a counselor outside the troop - for Swimming MB - it took MONTHS to get a return call from any - and by then, the MB had been re-written. He had only 1 requirement to finish, that of instruction hours - and that requirement was dropped in Jan 2002. We had a number of other boys who had to finish up that badge, so the boys asked if the counselor could meet with all of them at a meeting. He did - and proceeded to re-test them on everything that had been signed off at camp. Just because someone gets approved by the council - doesn't mean they uphold the standards that are set by BSA.

you can get one in the BSA catalogue if you take any poster to most educational supply stores - the ones teachers use - you can often get them to laminate the poster - then it becomes a wipe off board. Not quite as slick as a whiteboard - but that's good - at least you can make changes without having to re-do the whole poster.

Since Boy Scouts can't play paintball anyway - What does this have to do with Scouting? Am i on the wrong board? I'm confused.....

I had a hard time identifying who was who, also - which is why I ALWAYS wear a nametag - Of course, I'm such an outspoken loudmouth anyway, people seem to never forget me... has it's good points and it's bad points.... And I'm trying to encourage others to wear nametags, too. Not getting very far. At least i make sticky ones up and paste them on people when we have parent nights and recruitment - I think it helps. Communication was a problem - my son missed the first few campouts because it wasn't explained to us that he could attend the camping part of a trip even if he didn't bike the 40 miles. there was no way he could do 40 miles the first time on his bike in the spring - he just wasn't used to it. Once I got the names and jobs down, figured out how to get information, etc. I got into working with the troop - reading, training and getting involved - I realized too - that our troop was not a "Boy Scout" troop. It was a boy's club in uniform that followed some dads on trips, surviving mostly on past reputation and ancient history. the adults planned & carried out the whole program the boys did not use patrols for anything (except flag ceremonies and small stuff. Campouts the whole troop planned meals and usually the younger boys cleaned while the older ones cooked - unless one needed cooking for a rank advancement. PL's were elected - but they didn't do anything but start a phone chain - SPL and ASPL were elected and attended Committee meetings. there was no PLC - the boys who were interested in putting in their 2 cents worth came to the committee meetings, where they could talk but not vote. the committee made ALL decisions - where and when campouts were, what summer camp to attend, what fundraisers to do and when, what the money was spent on or saved for, what equipments was boought or replaced (though none of them ever went on the campouts to see that equipment used) what the cost of campouts were - and seldom (if ever) asked what the boys wanted. there was lots more - when a few of us recognised the need for a boy lead BOY SCOUT troop - there was almost a war - but the adults DID wrest the leadership from the committee and gave it back to the boys. We now have a great boy lead troop - it's not perfect - they're learning - but it's THEIRS.

Wow - alot of things to think about and address - First though - your comment " We have scouts come to camp on meds and they don't list them on the forms." A class II form is good for 3 years. As I am the activity coordinator and keep 'the book' updated (and because we don't want this personal info in the hands of the boys) this IS an adult job. I know on my son's form it does NOT reflect his current medication - as ADD meds can change. (or be diagnosed & added!) He's also changed his allergy meds. Because I am aware of this - rather than get a new form (& a Dr visit) every time he changes, I keep a medicine card in his file reflecting any changes. Also - whether parents INFORM us of medications, uses, etc. or not - our troop REQUIRES all medications sent along to be in the original prescription bottles, or OTC bottles so they can be identified by medical personel. I don't have to be able to pronounce that medications name or know what it is for - but the label tells me when to give it to the child - and I can give the bottle to any health professional that has to treat the child and THEY will know what they are dealing with for the purpose of drug interactions. that being said - I am very open about ADD in my family - and I work hard at maintaining an open and non-judgmental attitude with the parents in our troop; which encourages them to TELL me of their childs specific medical needs and requirements. (Sometimes I get told TOO much! LOL!) We have a couple of asthmatics, lots with ADD - one with ODD (sure can't see it - he's VERY cooperative), a bedwetter, one with Tourette's, a couple who have been on anti-depressants, Allergies (from hay fever to shellfish), one lactose intolerant, one who swears he's allergic to cabbage? I have seen all the troops forms - I don't "read" them. I look for the proper signatures, dates - are the appropriate blanks filled out? if not, is a school form attached? I don't even bother to look for medications on the forms - I ASK the parent when they turn in the (new) forms - "are all his medications listed?" Before we go to summer camp, I ask when accepting medication to go to camp "is there a list of medicines, dosages and times? Are all the original labeled bottles included?" We go to two camps - one in Wisconsin and one in Illinois. State laws differ. In Wis medicines MUST be turned over to the nurse's office for dispensing by medical personnel. In Illinios, a troop leader is designated to dispense meds. We usually look for the parent of the kid with the most medicine - and they get the job for all. for troop campouts - it's up to the scout himself - unless a parent ASKS us to remind or dispense meds. Obviously, an ADD kid is not going to 'remember' to take his meds! LOL! You can 'dictate' rules all you want - but on this kind of issue - people aren't going to disclose information unless you ASK and unless you make them comfortable in revealing the information you ask for. they have a 'right' to privacy - and they also have the 'right' to expose their child to possible drug interactions - or even to emotional upset because someone doesn't understand a problem that wasn't disclosed. That IS their choice. you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar - ASK - and explain why the info is helpful - and you'll probably get all the info you think you need.

Please do not take offense at the following - BUT - Cheryl - I don't know you or what experience / knowledge you have of ADD / ADHD - but i suspect you, like many - only know what you have read in magazines -Or you wouldn't suggest "The other is to give him his medication later in the day so that it lasts later into the night and hopefully until he is asleep" ADD meds are STIMULANTS - he will NOT sleep with them in his system. (there is only one brand-new medication out that is NOT a stimulant - and it doen't work for many and is VERY expensive) There are so many people who read one or two articles about ADD in a magazine and want to pass on the information to me about how I am abusing my child, or should change his medication, or discipline him differently, etc. It just makes me steam! if any lay person came up to me and suggested changing (or adding to!) my sons or my medication (we are BOTH ADD)- the mildest reaction I would have is roll my eyes and turn away. Most likely I would turn on them and give them a lecture on the intracacies of ADD, the details of the effects and purpose of the medications, the long, long history of all the research I have done for my son and myself and wait for them to pass out in shock (or boredom?) or run away screaming. Because I am (usually) fed up with people who know nothing about it, presuming to lecture me - when I have lived with it every day for 40+ years. 'Well meaners' are so persistant and prevalent - that it does not surprise me AT ALL that by the time these boys get to Jr High and Boy Scouts - the parents have built up a hard shield of resistance to outside influence - even if it is well meant- it is usually very ignorant. Every parent of an ADD child that I have EVER talked to or heard of, went through an extensive research and questioning process before making the agonizing decision to medicate their child (or themselves). NO loving parent EVER willingly gives their child serious drugs like these without a considerable amout of forethought. Using these drugs is an extrememly personal thing - medication is not determined by size or weight, or by clearly defined parameters like antibiotics or some other medicines. there is no way a Doctor can determine, without patient trial, observation, error and adjustment what kind and amount of medication will work. (if ANY will - sometimes nothing works) In addition, there is still a huge stigma attached to being diagnosed with any perceived mental disorder - that most parents will do whatever they can to avoid having their child labeled - especially give them medications. Medications are almost ALWAYS a last resort - yet as soon as 'the outside' finds out a person is medicated - their attitude is often to expect total 'fix' of the problem (not possible) or to shove more medication at the ADD. the joking remarks people make when someone goofs something up, " didn't you take your pill today?" HaHa! or 'what are you, Hyper?' or the jump to the conclusion by ordinary people that any kid who can't sit still is ADD - these things HURT. and these attitudes make it even harder for parents and kids to honestly inform and help SCOUTERS to effectively deal with their kids. Medication does not 'cure' ADD medication does not even 'control' ADD medication stimulates the brain so that the ADD person does not have to seek as much OUTSIDE stimulation in order to focus. medication is a tool that allows someone with ADD to make SOME choices in their behavior - rather than being overrun by impulse. Medication provides a bridge to learning BEHAVIORS with which the ADDer can cope with the expectations of the "normal" world. One of the best things a scouter can do for a 'difficult' child - whether ADD or just going thru hormone changes - is to listen, be patient, work with the parents - keep an open mind. If you are not able to deal with the situation - be honest and pass it on to someone who can, or tell the parents honestly that unless they work with the troop, you can't help or deal with their child. For all that I am a strong advocate for scouting for ADD kids (I feel Scouting is and ideal outlet and it is not fair to sacrifice the program for the rest of the troop to deal with one boy, regardless of his needs - it is fully reasonable to expect the family to help. they don't necessarily have to work with their son - each kid is different - but the family could do SOMETHING for the troop, that in turn, frees up someone else to work with their boy.

Hey Dave - how's Harry Potter coming along? we got ours on Sat. too and started reading it - sometimes Jon would get ahead, sometimes I would - some we read aloud ( they are GREAT books for reading aloud - they have great cadence and rythmn)But Sunday night I got too hooked, and stayed up until 3 am to finish it. it was AWESOME! now I'm dying for more..... I just hope she doesn't take another 3 yrs for the next one! laura

Hi all - It was one of my scouts that has the 'black belt' yet has asthma and heart problems severe enough to prevent him from participating in other sports. I don't know what kind of "black belt" this youngster has. I HAVE known him since kindergarten and he is a terrific kid. a GOOD kid. a good SCOUT. I suspect his belt is the Jr kind - as I don't know sqaut about Martial Arts but do know his folks some - and know that this would fit in with their educational philosophy for him. His mom says he has been in karate since before kindergarten- so it would make sense to me, that at 13 and 7th grade, he would be getting a Jr Black Belt. wouldn't it to you? Anyway - the point of my badge post though - is that since there are so many badges anyway, that represent so many different areas - it surprised me that there was no Martial Arts Badge. One of the things Scouting does so well is recognise acheivements and present avenues of learning that other organizations do not. when I was a Girl Scout - I belonged to a troop and council where i felt that ANYTHING I wanted to try, I could try through Scouting. BSA does a good job of that, too - but I felt that there was reason to add some badges in specialties that were not represented.

Hi all - some good ideas - i agree that there should be more career exploration areas - and not just in the trades, and professions such as law and medicine - what about real estate? financial / banking/ stock? I DON'T know anything about martial arts - but isn't Judo a martial art? whats the difference? As for BSA not liking punching and kicking - that it's bad - but it's OK to swing a sword at someone? (Fencing is allowed on the 'sports' list) - and I really don't see any difference between punching/kicking/wrestling/ flipping/ pinning/ or poking someone with a sword..... I do know that someone in our troop mentioned that this boy was recently in the paper for getting his black belt - he's been taking Karate for years since preschool - he's 1/4 japanese and i suspect his parents got him into it partly for cultural purposes, as he is adopted. He does not appear to be handicapped - other than being kinda small 7 uncoordinated for his age - all i know is that he had a number of open-heart surgeries as a child which cut and damaged chest muscles and he has limited lung capacity because of that and severe asthma - he is prone to sinus/throat/etc infections that can have very serious repercussions for him because he doesn't have the staminia to withstand them and keep breathing. He may have some other developmental and possibly physical problems as well - but like most, his parents want him to be treated as normally as possible - so they try not to advertise his problems until and if they become problems with what he needs to do. for that, I highly commend them. it's tough to ride the rail between challenging your child to reach for the moon and protecting him from falling from it! the biking/swimming/hiking badges all require stamina (50 mile trips?) and lung capacity that he will never have. Right now, he's also slightly developmentally behind in his coordination - again, biking and swimming is very tough for him. Backpacking with a 40lb pack? I doubt he even weighs 70 - 80 lbs. himself! i could see where Karate - though disciplined and strenuous - could be paced to HIS capacities.

Swimming is first in our troop - our boys like the water. the ones that have trouble with swimming get first aid or one of the Cit first and take 2 yers for swimming (or more) the Cit and 'paperwork' badges, are all offered at Merit Badge colleges done once or twice a year in our council - and easy way to get them if you apply yourself and do the prerequisites ahead. Perts fitness and pers management are the last - I suspect because of the individuality of them - they are not usually offered in a camp or 'class' setting and MUST really be done without outside structure or a group setting. Electives though, vary - but again, our troop is heavy into water - canoeing, rowing, even small boats, waterskiing and Motorboating are popular early electives. and of course - the shooting sports - Rifle, Archery and shotgun.

We have a boy who qualifies for handicap adaptation in our troop, and I was researching what he could do instead of the Biking/Hiking/Swimming badge requirements for EAgle ( another thread on the General board) this boy happens to have a black belt in Karate - but is not able to do strenuous activities because of heart and lung problems. when looking for alternatives, it surprised me to find that there is no "Martial Arts" badge; there's even 'Athletics' (track and field) & 'Sports' (team sports, mostly) and 'Sports' specifically excludes Karate (but includes 'Judo?' & "Wrestling"? in it's options). Why? hey, if they have a badge for GOLF - why not one for karate or other martial arts? I would think the self control required for martial arts would fit as well with the Scouting value system as anything else. I could see a need - or a gap in the program, as it were - that needs to include the following badges: Martial Arts or a general Sports badge desinged to encompass any recognised 'Sport' of choice - what about Tennis? or maybe and "individual sport" badge and a "team sport" badge? Mathematics Chess? Divide 'Pets' into specifics - they have 'Dog Care' What about "Cats" Domestic Birds Home Aquaria Small pets (rodents and amphibians - pets - NOT the same as the Reptile and Amphibians Badge) If they have Auto repair - why not Small Engines - like lawnmowers and go carts? amd we can't forget - the "Duct Tape" badge! LOL! But seriously, what kind of badges would YOU like to see? Is there somewhere/ somehow we can let BSA know we need to add some?

C.O.P.E. courses are great - but most require boys to be 14 - I think most of your boys are 11 and 12? you can use some of the technics used in such courses, or you can look for something similar elsewhere - for example, a Christian camp we like to use for our younger boys has a similar low ropes course that does not have such an age requirement. In the short run - at meetings and such - you can always do team building relays and such - skill tests - knot tying, or the one where you tie a knot with a HUGE (read FAT) rope and the boys cannot let go of their section - and one has to direct the others - there are quite a few games that challenge teamwork in a group. Problem is - most of the boys stick with a "friend' for these, or they still cheer on the strong and ridicule the ones who make a mistake, and once the 'game' is over - they don't apply that "game" teamwork mentality to getting along and making dinner! When we were first trying to re-introduce the patrol method - and trying to get our boys to work together -we had a campout that was planned with team activities & team goals. At that point in time, we were still very much adult lead, but were breaking away from it. At that point in my experience with the troop - we had only used patrols to line up for flag! honest! LOL! our boys totally did NOT understand "team" here's how it worked: In our case, the campout was about canoeing skills and we had a number of 'games' or contests that the boys earned points for in groups of 2 or 3, or whole patrols. the final score was computed with a total of "event" points - but you could also raise your patrols score by "Living the Law". Each adult , Jr leader, and the SPL(as he didn't belong to a patrol) - was given a bag of poker chips worth so many 'points'. When a leader witnessed a boy or group of boys 'living the law' they could award a chip - which were then turned in to the scorekeepers. The idea was that even if a team were poor canoeists - they could still "win" the competition by helping out their team mates, doing a good turn, being courteous, kind, obedient, etc. It got them in a mode of constantly thinking about team work and the Scout law - over the entire weekend; not just during the competitions. what happened is that two patrols tied for first place in the canoing events - but when they searched their pockets and turned in all their 'chips' - one was a clear and definate winner. their award was certificates for a trip out for ice cream that night. In another thread - you mentioned that you have alot of ADHD or similar behavior boys in your troop. that 'instant reward' of a poker chip or token is something I have used with my ADD son often over the years. It works! the idea is that they get instant feedback & recognition of getting the Chip or 'reward' and yet; rather than some useless little thing like a sticker or dorky McDonalds junk toy - they can 'save up' the rewards for something worthwhile, and learn to build on their sucesses. it helps them in goal setting, and helps them in that they can only GAIN points - not lose them. if they backslide or have a bad day, their goal doesn't get further out of reach, discouraging them - they only have to KEEP TRYING. many boys with a higher maturity level will think it's a dumb idea - it sounds like it, I know. but it DOES work. you can use it for all kinds of things, for specific outings, or for meetings - like for uniform inspections. the key is to pick a reachable goal, and give rewards that have meaning to the boys in question.

Sorry i missed you, Dave - I was online, too - just not here that long.... maybe we'll catch you next time? Laura

Besides, isn't BSA coverage supplimentary coverage? in other words - BSA covers only to the extent that your personal insurance does NOT cover an injury or illness? On a similar issue - we require that every adult and boy invited to go along with the troop fill out and application and a health form appropriate for the trip. They also must fulfill any requirements - such as a swim test on a float trip. This makes sure that they are prepared for the event and that we have knowledge and permission to treat them should something happen. Cub scouting might be a little different - as so many things include family participation.

Besides, isn't BSA coverage supplimentary coverage? in other words - BSA covers only to the extent that your personal insurance does NOT cover an injury or illness? On a similar issue - we require that every adult and boy invited to go along with the troop fill out and application and a health form appropriate for the trip. They also must fulfill any requirements - such as a swim test on a float trip. This makes sure that they are prepared for the event and that we have knowledge and permission to treat them should something happen. Cub scouting might be a little different - as so many things include family participation.

I have read the part about 'alternate requirements' being available for First Class - but it is not specific. I can understand why - adjusting the requirements would HAVE to be different for each boy -depending on what exactly handicapped the boy in the first place. As far as the Swimming/ Hiking/ Biking merit badge is concerned for Eagle - I think you can substitute another equally difficult badge with council approval. It's a shame there isn't a Martial Arts Badge - surprising, actually - I would think it was right in keeping with Scouting.... If there were - we could substitute that. But I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions as to what might be an appropriate substitution in this case for the advancement requirements? he HAS managed to do all except the swim test - he HAS done the rescue demos, the safety rules, etc. His family lives on a small Pond/Lake with a small beach, and they have a canoe available to him. I think canoeing would be good for him - in fact, when I was a kid and my older brother had severe asthma - that's how my family got into canoeing - the family Doctor told mom it would help build up his chest muscles. since my son and this boy are kind of friends at school - they sit together at lunch - His mom has invited us out for some fishing and canoeing. We've also talked about trying some short treks on the bike trails - to build up his strength. As coordination on a bike is a problem - and his mom and I have bad backs - I suggested that we try a short version of a trail where they rent recumbent bikes and recumbent trikes and two seaters. Kinda cool - but less strenuous. I rented one of the recumbents for one of our scout trips and it was REALLY easier on my back! - ALL leg work, and the seat was better for us with "wide loads". LOL!

What time of year do all your troops do their annual planning? our troop does it in summer - and actually - I think that's a mistake. the school calendar is out for holidays and teacher inservice days - but the band, choir and sports schedules aren't out until closer to school starting. between vacations, summer camp and activities - alot of members are not available for such a meeting - and it's the LAST thing a boy wants to do on a summer saturday! the boys come up with ideas off the cuff - mostly repeats of previous years and don't come prepared. so they "plan" stuff like "backpacking in August" or Devils Lake in June" without details - and the committee then takes it away and 'plans' the rest for them. I've been trying to encourage the SPL and PLC to come up with more definative plans - I figure if it's 'done' the committee is less likely to try and take over from the boys. I'm wondering if we plan the fall, and plan a full year planning session IN the fall - and then KEEP the annual in the fall - it might work better? suggestions? comments?

ps - I know they can take Swimming OR Hiking OR Biking - but they require more stamina than swimming - and he can't heft a pack or do even 5 miles on a bike - he doesn't have the coordination or the strength.

We have a boy in our troop who is a severe asthmatic and has had heart problems as well - lets call him Joe. As an infant, Joe had a few open heart surgeries - I think he is ok now - except that He is small for his age and not athletic. He doesn't have a great deal of stamina from under developed lungs and chest muscles. Joe has worked on many badges requiring scholastic knowledge but he has trouble with manual dexterity - basketry was really tough for him. However - he's persistant and intellegent - having worked thru the Chemistry, American Heritage and Aviation badges and others. He has started doing Archery through a group here in town, and almost has a black belt in Karate. His mom says he is prone to infections and has allergies - so he doesn't get on alot of campouts - but his Dad has started coming along so he can participate more. I don't know the whole story, but I've become friends with his mom and have found that he is adopted, and that his birth mother had quite a few problems he has inherited. Swimming is VERY difficult for him - the coordination and stamina required. His parents have him in private lessons now, and rather than working on the badge - want him in lessons at camp. This will be the first year ( of 3 with the troop) that he is signed up for a full week of camp. So they are doing whatever possible, within his abilities, to give him as much scouting and other experiences they can. Problem is - 1st - his mom is afraid that even having him try to take the BSA swim test would overtax his stamina, putting his lungs and heart at risk. she thinks there is no way he can pass the test (and from what I have seen, she is correct - not just overprotective - but I have no medical background, either) 2nd - if he doesn't pass the swim test - he can't get his first class. 3rd - he can't canoe at camp or with the troop - which all his peers - even some who were slow swimmers, have managed to do now. The rest of the troop is planning a couple of day canoe trips - culminating in an overnight river trip. he and his parents are both trying to get him to stretch his abilities - but they may never stretch as far as our requirements. so what kind of accomodations are acceptable in this kind of situation? As pointed out in another thread - swimming skills and being able to save yourself from a dumping in a river with a life jacket on are two different things. this boy is no athlete - but on the kind of rivers we are looking at- mostly shallow streams - most you can stand up in and possibly the wisconsin river (no whitewater), and in a lifejacket, I think would be able to get himself upright and to shore. ASIDE from scouting rules - if we could ride him with two adults in a canoe - one being his parent - I would be willing to take him. But we have to deal with scouting rules. While we have plenty of Safety afloat trained adults, we don't have an adult who is a lifeguard and are not likely to get one. Ok - so my question is, how do we get this boy thru his ranks and give him the same opportunities as the other boys? to try for Eagle if he wishes? - adapted to his abilities? What if he can't get the swimming badge? or parts of it's requirements? suggestions? comments?

oohh! 2cubdad - that SM has a wicked sense of humor - I LIKE it! LOL! Dancin fox - your method would work, too - only thing is - who is getting punished? the SM that has to get up early to get the boys up early? or the boys? Hmmm - thinking it over - I'm against anything that punishes the adults in having US meet out consequences to the over-active boys. We're just starting to be boy lead and really getting it to work - but I'm certainly going to pass these two ideas on to our SPL. and I will back the 'consequences' he decides to use .... from the comfort of my sleeping bag! LOL! laura

Dave - you haven't been camping with us! our Adult patrol motto is "what's for dessert?!" We are always trying to prove to the boys that you can have GREAT meals on campouts! Besides - when the boys start complaining about how long a bike ride / hike is and how hot / tired they are - I can always point out "are you going to be out done by a 40 yr old fat lady?" Stops the complaints in their tracks. ( oh my aching knees!) LOL!

As the parent of an ADHD son - I can tell you that ALOT of the things people teach about dealing with ADHD Don't work. Why? because every ADHD child is different, and even with NON- ADD kids - they ALL have a slightly different approach to learning styles. Plus working with ADD kids take a LOT of consistancy and persistance. it isn't a 'trick' you can do tonite and have it work NOW to mnake a kid settle down and behave - once you find something that reaches a particular kid; you have to do it consistantly night after night and MOST of the time it might work - it's just as likely he'll figure out what going on and change to a different behavior that needs yet a different approach. It's not something i would expecct ANY SPL to handle on his own! especially in those kind of numbers! 1 - 4 or 1 to 9? 1 or 2 ADDers can set off the whole group, and you have 4? my sympathies are with you. Making an ADHD kid part of the program REALLY helps. Making them feel important helps them focus. Make one of the worst offenders your 'victim' in a first aid demo. find a skill or knowledge that he excells at and have him teach it to this peers (one on one). pair him with a more serious partner and have them research and teach something to the group. Give him a simple responsibility (one that can hold HIS interest) and hold him accountable for it. Don't yell at him if he "forgets" or harp on it. simply ask (privately) for a clear plan what he is going to do so he doesn't 'forget' again - and let his peers take care of the guilt trip (but don't allow abuse) when he succeeds, give him another, larger responsibility. Some things we have learned in changing over this year to a boy lead troop, and having our first new Scout patrol in years - of 8- 5th graders: Keep it simple: you may have to tone down the program (add time, teach basics, be less complicated) to meet the skill levels of the 5th-6th grades. We have found that Webelos does NOT do a good job of preparing the boys for Scouting - especially camping & planning skills. as you are finding, the maturity level is severely lacking. so give them a grace period to learn - plan patrol outings geared JUST for them. There is always 6 months to a year of adjustment to thinking for themselves. and they are constantly asking me "MrsT - when? where? how? what?" and i constantly tell them - 'I dunno - ask Will (SPL) ask Kevin (PL) Ask Joe (Quartermaster)" your job as SPL is kind of like our job as leaders. It's really tough to "let go' of control, live with mistakes, and resist the urge to supervise everything personally. BUT YOU MUST DO SO. lay out the plan, learn to delegate jobs to the appropriate people and if they fail - let them & try again - don't take over and don't get mad. otherwise you'll burn yourself out, get frustrated and no one will have fun.