LauraT7

I was taught to ALWAYS use a groundcloth or 'footprint' which is the newer term tent manufacturer's are using for a groundcloth cut to fit the tents exactly. The expensive backpacking tents sell a 'footprint' seperately so that you can pitch the fly and the footprint, or the whole two-layer system. the footprints they sell for specific tents are nicely trimmed and stitched around the edges to be 1" smaller than the tent floor - some have grommets or tabs so you can stake them down with the tent. the easy way is to buy the biggest plastic rip-stop tarp from K-mart or farm and fleet and cut your own. the rip-stop will not ravel - but you can stitch the edges if you really want. i do feel, in addition to extra waterproofing, they protect the tent floor from some wear, sticks, sharp stones, etc. - and I'd rather scrub mud and moldy leaves off a tarp, than off the tent floor or fold the mess up in the tent and clean it up later. for that reason, on my personal tent - i always fold up the footprint separate from the tent itself. Our troop has a method of folding the tents up IN the groundcloths - which makes sense to keep them dry in a canoe - but which gets mess all over the tent walls when they are folded up wet. More to clean up when we get home. I agree with Mark - the boys can and do learn to take care of equipment - including tents. But it does take some time for it to sink in - mistakes are made, & not everyone goes on every campout - there is a learning curve. which is why our boys decided that IF they get the new, fancy backpacking tents - only the venture patrol will use them on regular campouts, if needed. Because they HAVE already shown they know how to treat tents well. also - kind of an incentive for the new boys to learn and GO on the trips that utilize the newer tents. It has also been suggested that we buy enough tents for MOST of the troop, and allow the older boys to bring and use their own. I can see good reasons for this from a number of angles. A boy who has his own tent is understandably proud of it and WILL do his best to take care of it. Bringing their own tents gives everyone a chance to see and experience different types of tents and get exposure to what they like and how they work. Using privately owned tents lets us use troop money for other equipment. One tip on 'sealing' the seams - use the spray on can of waterproofing spray for single-layers of tent fabric - but for floor seams or stressed seams (corners, ridges) use the heavier stick waterproofing. it looks like an elmer's glue stick (like used in school) and is a waxy-type substance you rub in. it may be a little sticky at first, but it will dry, and will do a better job of sealing those needle holes than the spray in a thick seam.

one of our easier fundraisers is selling bottled water at fairs and parades. We buy the bottled water at Sams Club by the case for about 17 cents each and sell them for $1 a bottle. the day before the sale, we fill the refridgerator at church with the cases of water and chill them. I take home a few cases and freeze them solid in my big chest freezer. the morning of the event, we meet at the church and load frozen and chilled bottles in the patrol coolers, load them up on little red wagons and head down the parade route or to the park, etc. anything we don't sell can keep, store without spoiling and doesn't need to be refrigerated. the troop can also drink it if we want to. another easy fundraiser is 'Cartridges for Kids', http://www.cfktoday.com/ Please, if you sign up for this, mention that you were refered to them by BSA Troop 159 Woodstock, IL. Any group that refers another group, gets additional funds - won't affect YOUR earnings, but adds to ours. There are MANY cartridge recycling organization like this one out there. What you do is collect ink-jet cartridges and laser cartridges from homes and businesses, and send them in to be recycled. this particular group had the wideest list of cartridges they recycled, AND they also recycle cell phones. The recycling organizatrion pays for shipping by sending you pre-porinted fed ex or ups labels - you just box up the cartridges/phones in a box, slap on a lable and call for pickup. If you get enough cartridges from one place - say a crew parent's business - you can set them up with their own contact - CFK will mail shipping labels directly to the business and the business ships their own cartridges. CFK sends your troop/crew a check once a month for whatever they have received that month from all of your sources or whatever you sent in yourselves. Unless you have some really good business contacts - this doesn't make ALOT of $ - but it is very little effort for the return. I box up about 30 laser cartridges and a couple of dozen ink cartridges and ship them out every month, from families just bringing them in to meetings, and we get between $40 and $80 a month from one shipment a month.

Actually - i did tell the boys, put on the camp list and parent booklet, and repeated until blue in the face - BRING paper, pens, a fanny pack, hat and water bottle - over and over - still..... all week I heard "Mrs T? do you have a pen/ paper I can borrow?" me, "where's yours?" kid, "I left it on the bus", (also: i left it back at camp, i lost it, i forgot, i can't find it, mine broke, etc.) Good thing Mrs T knows the scout motto! LOL! Another thing we found handy from one of our fundraisers - we would sell bottled water at fairs and events, and to keep it cold, we would freeze some of the bottles. Well, we always take some 'healthy snacks' along with us to camp, and have lerned to freeze milk jugs and bottled water rather than buy bag ice. Those frozen water bottles are better than a coke on a hot day! you can carry them around on your bike for quite awhile - drink 'em as they melt - and use the cold bottle to cool down the back of your neck or the inside of your wrists, etc. I keep frozen water bottles at home for road trips now! laura

I'd be interested in getting any info you are willing to share, or a list of resources you used when you get it all compiled - We have sent some boys to JLT camp - but we have not done any training inside our troop - and after a hazing incident at camp this summer - I think knowledge of troop positions and responsibilities is in order - and especially teamwork training. if you do get something together - e-mail me at tlaurat7@hotmail.com

Bob - i suppose i COULD see that - assuming that they did ONE campout per year in addition to summer camp - but it sure wouldn't leave room for anyone missing that ONE campout.... and i can't imagine it being a very fun troop..... the thing is, I believe it was BTPS that said they weren't a 'camping troop' and that they did NO camping or outdoor activities, and only went to summer camp. Practicality says that not every boy in the troop makes it to camp either. so how can they possibly 'deliver the promise'? And if they DON't camp OR do outdoor activities - then how can they earn their ranks and badges (particularly 'Camping' which is Eagle required) and have even a chance at Eagle?

We also have a scout who is asthmatic and has heart trouble (had 4 open heart surgeries before age 6 or something)And I started looking into alternative requirements for him, because he also has a BIG problem with swimming...as well as other 'physical' requirements. Our concern wasn't the swimming TEST - we figure that eventually he might pass that - it had more to do with the Eagle requirement for the Swimming/Hiking/biking badge - all of which would be very strenuous for him. What I've found out so far makes sense to me, so I'm not trying to rush into 'alternative' requirements yet - From what I can figure out - National / Council / district encourages you to have the boy do ALL requirements he can before applying for an alternative. This gives him time to work on the tough requirement, and also doesn't put the troop/district/ council through getting an alternative approved, only for the boy to not complete the rank for other reasons. It also sets the standard to the other boys that he legitimately earned the rest of the rank or advancement, and made his best effort (within his abilities) to do the same work they did to get there. So he should get ALL the first Class requirements, and only then, if he has made an effort to get the swimming requirement, should you come up with, and apply for, an alternative. In the case of our boy - he should get ALL the other Eagle Required badges, and THEN the troop should ask for an alternative to the Swimming/hiking/ biking badge, if his health problems still puts those badges out of his reach. I don't believe that means that you don't THINK ahead about possible alternatives before you reach that point - but you don't put the cart before the horse - so to speak. But in the end - I think you also have to look at the boy in question and the alternatives out there. SHOULD someone get to be First Class, or an EAGLE without completeing ALL the requirements as written? what does it mean to be an EAGLE scout? the following is my personal opinion - but I have to wonder if ALL the boys SHOULD have the opportunity to be Eagles, or get any rank advancement, if they have severe enough handicaps that prevent it normally. Think about it - some boys with handicaps can make Eagle with only some adaptations that really only make the Eagle award HARDER -not easier - such as using a braille handbook. But for those with emotional disorders, or ADD, or asthma - they APPEAR able to do anything the 'normal' kids can, and yet, they get special help getting there. Are we LEVELING the playing field for ALL? or are we letting some kids drive while others have to walk across that field; hills, ruts and all? I have an ADD son - I KNOW how hard he has to work to get good grades and keep up with organizational things - IF he makes Eagle, he will have REALLY earned it, because the organization and positions of responsibility required will be really difficult for him to stay on top of. I know it will be an extraordinary effort for him. Right now, he's not very 'into' rank advancement - he likes fun badgework, but is not really interested in the Eagle badges he has left to do - they're too much like schoolwork. But he COULD do them if he really wanted to. He needs POR to advance, but he's such a goof-off at meetings, and forgetful, so the boys don't vote him PL and he's not really interested in a more 'organizational' position like librarian or scribe. He DOES have a 'legitimate' handicap, gets special help at school with organization, and possibly, I could appeal for alternatives for him - but he's got another 5 years 'til he's 18 - plenty of time. Lots of our troop get their Eagle at 15 or 16, but maybe his abilities and maturity level are just on a different timeline. I'd love for him to be an Eagle Scout - but it's not ME who has to earn it - only HE can decide if HE wants it - and he's got time. If I push him, or pave the path for him - what has he really learned? and is he REALLY what people think of when they think of an 'EAGLE SCOUT'? Whether he ever advances in rank or gets another badge really doesn't matter - he has already learned so much from scouting, that I know scouting values have become a way of life for him. Just seeing him make his way through a WHOLE WEEK of summer camp without losing ONE SINGLE thing is a major advancement to me!

They way boys use tents - even if they are taught to properly care for them - is HARD on any tent! Coleman is a well-known brand name - but they are marketed to occasional family campers - not scouts and commercial groups. A family probably wouldn't use it as hard, and would take better care of the tent or replace it sooner than a scout troop would. I would NOT buy a coleman tent for a troop. (some other Coleman stuff, yes - but not a tent.) What KIND of tent to buy depends on how your troop is going to use them - are you going for light weight - as in canoeing and backpacking? or do you do more car camping and camping in boy scout camps and state parks where you are not carrying them as far & need durability over light weight? the Timberlines are not the optimal backpacking tent - but the smaller ones CAN be broken down to share between packs and can be used in backpacking - we've done it. We also swear by the Eureka Timberlines - but be sure you ask for the OUTFITTERS. they ARE more expensive -but there's a reason Timberline Outfitters are considered to be THE 'boy scout' tent. at a glance, they look the same - but the fabrics, floors, poles and zippers are heavier and tougher. In addition, parts are easy to get and many things are easy to repair yourselves. (because ANY tent WILL break or parts get lost) They can get you a grommet kit, patches, replacement zippers, etc. Timberlines can also be ordered with Vestibules - which give you an outside small, dry storage space for packs and shoes, etc.But they also have a great guarantee. the 4 man are not large enough for a 14 or 15 yr old to stand up in - but that does not seem to be a problem with most boys. I like a tent i can stand in - but then, I'm tall and have old knees and back that doesn't deal well with crawling around to get dressed in the AM! LOL! Most tent company's idea of '4 man' is 4 sleeping mats using every inch of floor (about 2' X 5' per person) - no room for gear or the fact that no one likes to sleep with their head in a narrow angle between the sidewall and the floor - (one reason I suspect dome tents are more popular now - straighter walls)So as a 'rule of thumb'; for a weekend campout, I would suggest one or two less than the recommended capacity of the tent. Definately two less for a whole week - like at summer camp. We recently looked at backpacking tents for our troop - and in the end, the PLC couldn't make up their mind and opted for adding two, 6 man, 2-door Timberline Outfitters to our troop tents so we'd have enough for summer camp. They are REALLY commercial quality and are roomy and tall enough for an adult to stand in the center. As for other tents - I'm sure there are others that are good - but look for the same kinds of things - extra stitching in the seams, better zippers, stronger fabrics, "bathtub" floors, aluminum poles instead of fiberglass, etc. On our 'shopping trip' to REI, Galyans and Gander Mountain to compare tents and brands We saw a number of 2 - 3 man pack tents that were worth the $200 -$400 and up in quality and weight - but even the expensive backpacking tents are going to take more "care" than the Timberlines. Not only cleaning and airing them properly after use - but clearing the ground better before they erect them, not yanking the zippers open with one hand, not jamming stuff up against the sides, making sure they're not 'pulled' askew when erected - stakes and guy lines right. When they looked at the Marmot, North Face, Kelty, REI, and Eureka backpacking tents - the BOYS came to the conclusion that IF they got those kind of tents, that they would be used only for backpacking or by the older boys - as they KNEW the new scout 11 yr olds just don't take the care the older ones do. I have a 10 yr old, heavily used, $79, cheapie 6 man dome tent i got from Sam's Club. I have camped in it 12 months of the year, in all kinds of weather, and took good care of it. Even so - it's on it's last legs - because it is a cheap tent. i've repaired tears in the floor (from loaning it to someone else) repaired seams and stake tabs that have pulled free (when it was still new - they weren't sewn solidly in the first place)added velcro tabs to keep the poles from twisting, replaced poles & shock cords(common -fiberglass poles break easily) Most scout troops would have given up on it long ago! LOL! To make it last out one more season - I'm going to be 'taking up the slack' where the fabric has streatched out and lays over on the floor and leaks. I can make these repairs myself, because i'm a pretty decent seamstress and good with this kind of stuff - but most people wouldn't attempt it - they'd send it out for expensive repairs or get a new tent. So your best 'value' is to spend the money to get a really good quality tent, like the Timberline Outfitters, to start with.

in another thread, someone said theirs was NOT a camping troop - How can you 'deliver the program' if you don't camp AT ALL? If any of your boys want to go for Eagle, Eventually, they must get the camping badge and to do so, they MUST camp 20 nights - and only ONE week (6 nights) of summer camp counts. so much of scouting advancement is scoutcraft - knots, knife and axe, compass, swimming, etc - Why would the boys want to learn those things unless they get a chance to use them somewhere ( like camping?) I don't get it.....

Two things struck me - "My frustration last night had more to do with parents blaming ADD or ADHD for their childs behavior. I've already had plenty of that this week. I believe that either they control their behavior, or it will control them." and "He just crossed over three months ago and is only 11 years old. " "John" had just earned his totin chit that afternoon. Both myself and his father had specifically addressed the fact that a knife is a tool and not a play thing. However, the boy just made a bad decision - a rather foolish and immature decision. He was in the dark whittling on a walking stick to give his dad. Using a knife in the dark itself was not a smart idea." I have noticed with the new boys and Totin' chits - that they are SO EAGER to get them and use those knives that IMMEDIATELY after earning them, they come back to camp and start breaking the rules they just "learned". (using the knives near traffic patterns is the most common one - they set up carving in the main area and people walk into their safety circle, they do the safety circle with an open knife, they walk around with an open knife, stuff like that) Not intentionally - but they have not had the time or the practice to absorb and internalize the information. they are young and excited, impulsive and seldom think beyond the immediate moment. They don't even have to be ADHD ! But BEING ADD increases the impulsivity. Just because they have EARNED the chip and are ALLOWED to carry and use a knife now - doesn't mean they SHOULD. (I also can't count the number of 'lost' knives the day after totin'chit day - ADHD or not) i take offense at the comment "I believe that either they control their behavior, or it will control them." you are stating your 'belief' that ADD kids CAN control their behavior - and at 11 yrs old, 3 mos new in the troop, with the excitement of camp, an exciting game / competition, a new knife and totin' chit - a charged up atmosphere - someone is overloading this kid's 'control" button, beyond what he can handle. He has a lower tolerance level than most. Also, ADD kids need ALOT of repetition for something to sink in - they have a hard time FOCUSING and PAYING ATTENTION in the excitement of earning his chit - I'm sure alot of the info just blew right thru his head. A troop leader may not know that - it depends on the individual child - had it been MY ADD child - I would know that it would take much more than ONE afternoon's lesson for him to know the proper use of a knife, and i would not have left him open to temptation or typical ADD forgetfullness by letting him carry it around. (I would not forbid it - but I would point out the advantages of leaving it in a safe place.) I didn't hear any indication that the boys' parents used ADD as an excuse for his behavior - but it IS a contributing factor. No matter how 'normal' someone with ADD appears - because of medication or learned coping mechanisms - they STILL struggle with it all the time. I try not to use my son's ADD as an "excuse" - but he has special needs and I try to make our troop aware of them and not let him get set up for a situation that overloads his circuits. He has now reached a point where HE knows when things get to be too much for him and most of the time, can extracate himself. I am not in any way condoning or making excuses for this boys' pulling out the knife inappropriately - it was WRONG. But maybe Dad and the scout leader should have given him some pre-prep and special instructions knowing that this kind of temptation would be tough on his impulsivity.

hmmm - without all the details - a tough call. Why? because we have a pair of boys, who are good friends of my son's and who live in the apartment complex across the road from us. they are in and out of my house, (along with their older brother who is NOT a scout) many times a week - including overnight. The parents work nights, and these boys are responsible for getting themselves to alot of meetings and events. So - as a 'parent' I give them rides to and from meetings - when I can't, sometimes other parents or leaders have picked them up 'on the way'. When I get to the meeting - i put on my ASM 'hat' and am no longer a 'parent". BUT this is well known and arranged in advance with the full knowledge and consent of the parents and other people in the troop. usually the boys are together - sometimes one has other plans and it's only me, my son and one. As we are good personal friends with the whole family - the boys are often over here, or i have given them rides, even when my son is not around (at his Dad's or Grandma's). With the camp situation - there HAD to be other boys being picked up from camp - why couldn't another set of parents with other boys have given him a ride? even if they had no room for his 'stuff'- the SM could have carried "stuff" to make room for this boy as a passenger in another car with more boys in it. We are lucky to have a troop bus. It is a troop policy that EVERY boy rides the bus to ALL events that we use the bus - even if his parent is driving another vehicle up. (I often pull trailers for the troop - but my son and his friends ALWAYS ride the bus - no exceptions) When we do not use the bus and use personal vehicles, I will admit that we often do NOT have two leaders in each vehicle that carries boys - but we do travel within sight of each other, stop together, eat together, and maintain contact by walkie or cell phones. and it is NEVER 1 leader, 1 boy - always multiple boys in the vehicle together. Pickups carry equipment and never passengers. I also agree with BTP's comments - rides should have been arranged before GOING to camp - But emergencies and miscommunications DO happen - maybe Foster Dad had a flat tire and no cell phone? Also, the other scout leaders should not have left the 1 leader and 1 boy - this should have been discussed and decided as a "what if?" before they were left with no other options.

Thank you everyone, for your support - It means alot that you don't think I totally muffed everything - hopefully the adults in my troop see it the same way - only time will tell. Mark - I like your ideas about having the SPL and older boys 'pal-ing" with the "odd-man-out" - and as I had already calmly talked to the SPL and patrol leaders and other 'ringleaders' about this throughout the week - I actually think my outburst shook them awake more than anything else had. I also think you are right about the pranks - some pranking and jokes add to the 'romance' of summer camp memories. I remember having my undies run up the flagpole, and running up someone else's! I also remember (as a counselor) taking one counselors' bed, trunk, table and everything and setting it up on the swim float out in the lake! I like your idea of "EVERY prank that is to be pulled is OKed by the SM or acting SM before it is done" - this lets the boys have their fun - but assures some forethought and awareness of consequences of the prank. the biggest thing with the boys and these kind of pranks -is that they do something impulsively and never think of 'what happens next?' also- you gotta be able to 'take it' if you 'dish it out' and you have to make sure no one gets really hurt - physically OR emotionally.

ok - here's what i found useful at camp - ALL your advice! but also - the lost and found box - esp since it rained everyday - an empty extra cooler became our lost and found. a rubbermaid box or even a cardboard box might work - but i like waterproof.... esp for mildewy stuff. waterproof matches extra tarps! you can NEVER have enough extra tarps! for Shade, rain, wind - or to just sit out on - or for the boys to make their own shelters and sleep out in... lots of reasons. Also - at the last minute we were mysteriously locked out of the storage area where we keep the troop shelter/ tent. So we didn't have it at camp and it rained all week. Luckily I had brought a HUGE extra tarp and some other tarps, and the boys made a shelter out of them - or we would have really been wet all week! waterproof matches a heavy staplegun and/ or pushpins for bulletin boards and notices a dry erase board for announcements and duty rosters, notes - etc. a battery clock We didn't check on toothbrushing - but a couple of us did start a 'toothpaste spitting contest' one night that I'm sure encouraged some to get out their toothbrushes that otherwise wouldn't have... We did tell everyone that they 'must' get a shower on tuesday and stretched it to wednesday - most did. we suggested the boys turn funds over to us and we'd put them in marked envelopes - but we didn't follow thru on it - we forgot the the envelopes. We did have LOTS of lost wallets, actually - lost everything! One boy made me smile though - he said - "mrs T? will you hold on to my last $10 so i won't spend it? i want to be able to get something to eat on the way home! LOL!" so i did. waterproof matches

Doesn't that just give you that warm, fuzzy feeling? Watching them bloom like that just makes everything worth it, doesn't it?

I've heard that before - from many people and places - that my experience with girl scouting was unique - and it's a shame - because I and my friends got SO MUCH out of it. there was not alot of pressure to learn to camp - or even to LIKE camping. But i happened to come from a camping family. Much of our grade-school level camping, (3rd through 5th grade Juniors, and Jr high Cadettes -we didn't have Daisies then and Brownies were not allowed to camp - only day activities)was the kind of wimpy car-camping most boy scout troops would sneer at. In many ways - they were cheapie girlfriend sleepovers - many in family backyards - but it did give us an early 'taste' independance and skills- we learned to build fires, put up a tent and tie the knots needed to make it stand up, chop vegtables for stew or sloppy joes, work in patrols - all at a much earlier age than boy scouts do. Our patrol system was different, too - a patrol was assigned a job for the whole troop - one patrol cooked for the whole troop, one patrol cleaned up (but everyone did their own personal dishes), one did latrines, etc. instead of individuals doing jobs within the smaller patrols. I think it promoted more of a 'teamwork' mentality, earlier in life. Girl scouts also did not require 1 on 1, child/parent on overnights - ever. maybe 1/4?or 1/6? I think this is a big reason why cubs don't go camping as much - it's tough to get 1/1 consistant parental involvement - especially when you have more than one kid in the family! I'm not saying that they should move the boy scout program downward - just that they should do less "crafty" junk (and believe me - i LOVED the crafts!) and more practical skills in cubs- just to introduce them earlier. I think the Cubs would find it more fun, too - than making paper plate halloween skeltons, etc. At the age of 11/12 - 6th grade - all kids are already dealing with HUGE changes in their lives - Jr high, changing classes, hormones, if the scouting program had a less abrupt change from totally adult driven Cubs where the boys are passive pawns expecting parents to direct every move, to a place where some of the skills and traditions are a more stair-stepped upward trail - from day camping, to car camping with a high ratio of adults, but not 1/1, to troop camping with less and less adult involvement - I think we would retain more boys and families. Picture this - a boy comes into a troop: not used to planning and directing himself - but he already knows how to put up some kind of tent and has slept in one often enough not to be scared by normal night sounds, he has used a latrine before and isn't totally freaked by the smell, he knows how to light a match without getting burned fingers and some basics about what makes a fire stay lit or go out, and has used a paringknife to chop veggies & he has cooked something more difficult than hot dogs on a stick on said fire at least a few times. it would be so much easier to build on that previous knowledge gained at more tractable ages, than to try to pull over the whole changeover at once. Does anyone see what i mean? all of these are skills well within the reach of the average 4th grader, and at the younger age - they are more likely to listen and obey the adult leaders on basic knowledge ans safety issues. But we make them wait until they are in 6th or 7th grade - when they are starting to fight everything & everyone for independance and everything is new and strange. Instead they come into the troop, and school, parents, scouts - all of a sudden everyone expects them to 'grow up' and learn all kinds of new things and new rules and SELF DIRECTION and CONTROL. One guide hands 10 - 11 yr olds a box of matches, shows them how to lay a fire and then wonders why they want to 'play' with the fire - it's new, they think they know everything, and they don't have enough supervision, that's why! Do it when they are 4th graders and you have 2 or 3 leaders for this size group - and they learn better and the novelty will have worn off some by 6th grade! Like i said - i came from a camping family - and my son came from a camping family - the reason i took my Webelos with us on our personal family campouts was not just so Jon could have a buddy along to play with - it's because so many working families are NOT campers - and they have so much to do with multiple children families to care for - that they often 'do for' a kid rather than teach him to do for himself. It's easier. I have seen so many 11- 13 yr old boys who have not cracked an egg? used a paring knife? afraid to lite a match? Someone on this board said he knew an Eagle Scout going off to college who's mother wouldn't LET him touch the washing machine and soap for fear he's ruin the clothes? Who's going to wash his clothes at college? I just think that the boys are capable of more than the ADULTS want to be bothered with - and in the end - it makes it tougher for everyone. And BW - I DO know of the NSP and have mixed feelings about it. Our first attempt with it has not been good - as the dynamics of the boys in the new patrol reinforced POOR behavior as much or more than it reinforced GOOD habits. We do not have enough ASM's- we should have an adult advisor for each patrol - especially THAT one - and no one stepped forward. We also SHOULD have a troop guide or instructor that could help guide them - and we don't have a suitable boy leader for the position. Our past habit of mixing new boys into existing patrols seems to work better for us - but i don't think we're ready to give up on NSP yet. Even so - I think it would be better if the boys in the NSP had some inkling of what to expect in Boy scouts, some groundwork - and they didn't have a clue. Cubs is just TOO different.

Thanks Matua - and everyone - Some of these steps - including the majority of apologies, came before we even left camp. After final (All camp)campfire friday - back at the unit, the older boys and the SPL came up on their own with written notes of apology to me and to the other leaders and to the boy who was hazed. At the troop campfire that night,and at the committee meeting the following monday, I apologized to all the boys and parents for 'losing it' knowing that no matter how shocked or dissapointed I was, I should not have lost control of my temper that way. I do think that my relationship - at least with the older boys - is going to be OK. I went this morning to see some of them off to their second camp of the summer - and they were laughing and joking with me as usual. I've talked to many of them since camp, and open talk, forgiveness and apologies are going a long way toward mending the rift. The new boys who don't know me so well, may not have yet learned that I don't hold grudges and what's past is past - they may take a little more time. Plus, the yonger ones aren't 'in the neighborhood' and in and out of my house with my son,like some of the others are. I'm not sure the adults will be so forgivng - they weren't there - and frankly - alot of the adults, especially the "old scout" fathers - didn't think this 'hazing' was all that serious - especially in light of the fact that the boy who was hazed has been a behavior problem himself, and this kind of behavior was commonly accepted (?!) years ago - even in THIS troop. AS for the boy who was hazed - and his lying to us - that was on a campout prior to going to summer camp - in fact it was his third campout with us - and each time we have had some rule-following / discipline problems with him. Usually it was a matter of pushing the limits just a little too far - going off a marked trail, not taking a buddy when leaving camp, playing with the fire - stuff alot of new scouts push until they figure out the system. But in this case - on that campout in June when he lied - were dealing with water safety. I can be lenient and 'bend the rules' - like I don't think they need a buddy to go to the latrine when it's visible from the campsite - and some teasing is fun and expected - waterfights, a rubber bug on a sandwich, and the fake 'hand' that always seems to go along on campouts.... but i draw the line at personal insults, bad language and anything that physically hurts people or property. But on safety issues I am by-the-book or even stricter - and this boy took out a canoe on his own when he was expressly told NOT to; he didn't even ask for or accept a Buddy when someone offered. For some reason he wanted to boat alone, he harped on this the whole weekend - that he should be allowed to take a boat out by himself and would NOT accept the rules. (picture a 70 lb 11 yr old out on a lake in one of those old tall, upright paddleboats meant for two,in a wind, and they didn't steer well anyway) he just would not accept the physical fact that even an adult could not steer a one sided paddleboat! ALL the boys are well aware that the buddy system is basic sense - even the best boater/swimmer can roll a canoe and get beaned by a paddle - it has nothing to do with skill or trust or knowledge. So when he snuck a canoe out alone, came back in before the adults could catch him doing it, and then lied when confronted, the adults beached him for the remainder of the weekend. As we promised we would when we set the rules for everyone. on a side note - later, at camp -he DID pass his BSA test, he IS a strong swimmer and he got his swimming badge. Doesn't matter - at the time, he was an unknown risk - so he was classified as a beginner. Even now - ESPECIALLY now,knowing his skill level & knowing his disregard for safety rules, he would be on my special watch list. no one goes boating without a buddy and a buddy boat.

as for the boys WANTING to do sewing merit badge or something similar - I may have spurred an interest in sewing skills this summer at camp - with my new BSA uniform pants - you know how we all complain about the uniforms? the sizes, materials, design and prices? and how they make the pants un-hemmed in all sizes? Well they had enough length, even for someone tall like me, to chop 'em off and make them into zip-off leg pants. I've never had a pair of these type pants - to be honest - they just don't MAKE that kind of athletic wear in larger women's sizes - and even larger men's sizes just don't fit! I LOVE my new shorts/pants! I'll get alot more use out of them with the dual length! and they would be an easy and very useful project for an elective badge requirement!

hey, if there can be a 'duct Tape" badge - why not anything else? seriously, where and who would you present an idea for a new merit badge to in BSA? is there a procedure for that? i like the idea of a self defense merit badge - maybe it could be combined with a section on avoiding substance abuse, Youth protection and the like?? I know alot of our homeschoolers struggle with that Drug awareness requirement if their kids aren't in public schools with the DARE program.... Sadly, I have had to teach my son self defense moves - and not just because of possible bullies at school - he's used them sucessfully on his stepmother and dad who have been abusive. whether they ever HAVE to use self defense or not - it is empowering for their self esteem to know they CAN have some ability to protect themselves.

It's great when the boys have enough integrity to stick to their standards in working on badges and rank advancements, etc. But how do they LEARN that if they are constantly confronted with leaders and Badge counselors that set up a sub-par program? Or if they are boys whose parents don't care if they slid thru or not? I still think the badge counselors - especially at camp, need to be held accountable to a standard. No more, or less than the badge requirements given. an example that galls me - is my son's Leather Work badge at summer camp. In some badge areas at the same camp - if work was done outside of camp on a badge they asked for and accepted documentation of the work - as SM i vouched for a boy in our troop who had participated in local theatre productions for the THEATRE badge, some boys brought photos of projects, actual projects they had done or notes from parents and teachers. Jon had done quite a bit of Leather Crafts at a Church camp we frequented alot as a family. he had done leather tooling, dying, painting, made a belt and bible cover with buckles and snaps - really completed all the 'craft' requirements. So I went with him to Leather Work to vouch for his work with the counselor at camp. the counselor told us that he had to SEE the work Jon did - so Jon had to buy a kit and do the work there since he didn't bring the belt and book cover with him. OK - so we went and bought the kit - which had the snap already on it, and the pieces already cut and punched. then after Jon had tooled them, he could not dye or paint it because they were out of paints/dye. So out of the 8 requirements, he was supposed to do 5, and he actually only did two at camp, because they did not have the materials or tools to do 5 requirements - yet the counselor was willing to sign off on all - he said " he doesn't have to do them - he just has to have a project that includes it". Isn't that the dumbest thing you ever heard? I don't have a problem with Jon getting credit for the work - because he and I both KNOW he had done the requirements for the badge (and more!) on his own elsewhere - but it steams me that the counselor would not give him credit for work done, yet insist he do an incomplete project at camp for credit? many of the badges at this camp were inconsistant between counselors and program areas - And i did bring it to the attention of the program director. This same camp sent us home with about 15 - 20 missing merit badge cards and partials.

KWC57 - you sound almost like me at that age - for me, it was scouting that stepped in and helped. Like many kids, at the time i was in Jr. high, my MOM was more interested in keeping me in Scouts than i was. though I had been in Girl Scouts since Brownies, I did actually drop out of a troop in 7th grade - Mom convinced me to keep my membership active - in case i changed my mind, i guess. And SHE stayed active on the district & council level - she didn't force me to participate - but hey - if she was going to spend the whole day out at day camp setting up the nature hut, she wasn't going to let me stay home all day alone, either. To pacify me, she allowed me to bring a friend or two along, and the next thing we knew, we were happily involved in a project out there. I DID like kids, and dreamed of being a teacher someday - but I was painfully shy, and had very low self esteem. However - everyone knew my mom - and most of the 'mom' scout leaders were new, hesitant and unskilled - they were thrilled and made a fuss over me when i could lend a hand, keep the kids occupied, show them how to start a fire, or tie a knot or put up a dining fly. I got sucked into being a CIT because they were so desperate for help (I'm sure, orchestrated without my knowledge, by my mom) the experience was wonderfully ego-building for a girl who was unpopular, shy and gawky everywhere else. I was blessed by a council and scout leaders in my teen years that made me feel i could do ANYTHING thru scouting, and gave me successes to build on in other areas of my life. My Mom, and some other SCOUT LEADERS recognized and encouraged me - and because of that experience - I have tried to do the same for my son and his scouting friends. Look for some spark of skill or interest in this boy and encourage it, draw it out - give him some place to shine. He doesn't have to be the most popular or the star of the team for someone to make the difference in his life that he needs.

our area used to depend on Weblos participation with a Scout troop at district Klondike every year for the Webelos Arrow of Light requirement of "one activity with a BSA troop" - this was sanctioned by or district and council with their full knowledge - but just because they DID allow it - doesn't make it right. It has been against BSA national policy for years - if not always. of course - the council put a stop to it the year my son was in 5th grade - which left us scrambling for an 'activity' for our den to participate in before March crossover that year- as not a single troop in the area had ever had to actually PLAN something themselves to include webelos before! We have planned recruiting activities in the years since - including campouts - but we have made them specific to Webelos level and every Webelo must be accompanied by a parent. We have found that pre-planned things work best for webelos for overnights - cabin camping, museum overnights, lock-ins, things like that. One recent huge success was an overnight program in a museum WWII submarine. I took my Webelos den camping - with their parents, and individually with me and my son - just as friends - not as a scouting event. Cub scouting and Webelos, IMHO, is deplorably lacking in teaching camping skills. In Girl Scouting, the way I was taught camping skills - I knew more in 3rd or 4th grade than most of the 8th grade Boy Scouts i know now! Webelos come into Boy Scouting totally unprepared - unless they happen to come from a camping family, and one who allows their children to learn to do things for themselves! i believe, and hope, that some of the changes coming across from BSA will include a better 'bridge' between the cub scout and the boy scout programs and the skills they teach. I think we lose alot of first year boys because of the 'culture shock' difference in the way the two programs are run.

We had a hazing incident at camp this summer - unfortunately i did not handle it as well as I should. Sorry this is so long - but i gotta get some of this off my chest - and this forum has been so helpful to me in the past... We have a very young, very bright, but very annoying first year scout who has taken some 'boys will be boys' teasing since he has started with the troop in March. to be honest - the kid does his own share of deliberatly goading the boys into teasing him, disregards serious (safety)rules himself,(Like taking out a canoe on his own when told specifically not to, and hiding and lying about it to me & the SM on a campout) while tattling on others for minor indescretions. the teasing continued at camp, and while the other leader and I stopped it whenever we became aware of it - it continued behind our backs - and was supported and encouraged by the SPL and the older boys who SHOULD know better. We were terribly understaffed - 2 female leaders all week, one Dad for the first three nights, and 21 boys. It rained every day all week, and the camp was new to all but 3 of the boys, and huge - with over a mile and a half up and down hills from our campsite to the waterfront and nature program areas. The boys did have their bikes for these distances - but the trails were very rough and the rain was very depressing to them. the Camp program was poorly organized and because many of our boys took the 'cooking' badge - they were actually HUNGRY most of the time (one breakfast for teenage boys consisted of ONE small pancake? 60 boys cooking with ONE large frying pan?) Morale STUNK. (Didn't bother me - I kinda like rain - as long as I'M dry.) And it really only rained a little each day - not ALL day. It really shocked me, however, how poorly the scouts i had so far thought so highly of, reacted to some negatives in our camping situation by being negative and allowing a little rain to affect them so much) Anyway - the poor morale, problems with our site and the weather, and the teasing of this younger boy and his taunting back - culminated in a few of the boys actually physically restraining this boy, duct taping his hands behind his back and taping his mouth shut, and shoving him down behind a tent! The ringleader was one of the oldest boys in the troop - who SHOULD have known better - but who had endured a similar kind of hazing when he joined 4 or more years ago. the SPL, who is usually very responsible - was one of the most negative - and while he didn't participate - this was done with his knowledge and he made no attempt to stop it or help the younger boy - even when I chance upon the scene. I literally walked into it when i came into camp just before dinnertime to get everyone into ther Class A's - and this younger boy stumbled across my path with Duct Tape around his neck and hands, and the other boys there were laughing at him - including the 'venture' patrol boys and the SPL. When they made no attempt to apologize or help me or the boy get the tape out of his hair, tears streaming down his face, or the tape off his hands - i lost it and started screaming at them. i did NOT swear at them - but i did call them something to the effect of being no better than worms and not worthy of their uniforms. i also told them I was ashamed of them and disgusted with them. Screamed it at them - rather - I was livid. When I realized i had totally lost control - i gathered my stuff and went to the nearby parking lot(we were supposed to be loading the bike trailer at the time) a few of the younger boys - the one who was taped up included - went with me to the bike trailer. The other leader walked in at about the end of my tirade, and she started questioning the boys and piecing the story together. when I returned, we decided to take the whole troop to dinner early, and ask the camp directors help in dealing with the incident. After dinner, we had other troop adults arrive to help with driving back home - Fathers - and between the Directors' talk with the boys and the Father's later prescence, the end of camp was pretty subdued. The boys who instigated the hazing of this younger boy were contrite and terrified they were going to be expelled from the troop - and on their best behavior. The monday after we got home from camp - a committee and parents meeting was called to deal with the discipline of the boys. though the parents of the boy were furious - they did NOT want to expel the boys from the troop - nor did their son want to leave the troop. They did want to push the troop to make some changes - some of which will be implemented - some are still up in the air. One good thing out of this is that I think it has shaken the complacency of many of our scouts parents to re think their OWN involvement in scout FOR their sons. Certainly I don't think this would have gone so far if we had more adult supervision at this camp - 2 women and 21 boys may be the minumum requirement - but it is NOT enough for a whole week of camp! I and this other mom ASM have done MANY trips with the boys where we were the only ones who stirred themselves to go - and for one or two nights, we've been fine. but with all the blows to the morale of the boys by this tough week at camp - it just was NOT enough. There were many things, some controlable, many not, that contributed to this normally GOOD group of boys losing morale so thouroughly that they lost civility. Right now - the whole troop is walking on eggshells. I feel that i let the boys down by not controlling this situation - yet i don't really see how I could have stopped it - it was like an avalanche. I also feel that my troop - the adults - no longer trust me. Like THEY feel I should have stopped it. Yet I defy anyONE person, male or female, to control 21 wet, demoralized boys after a week of torment by weather, wet clothes, shoes and tents, no proper shelter, really bad food, large distances, etc. There is a point at which - even as boys - they have to take some responsibility for their own attitudes. And ATTITUDE is what did everyone in. Actually - I did not think the rain was all that bad - the weather was hot during the day - cool enough to sleep comfortably at night - the coolness meant no mosquitoes - no sunburns, either. Unlike the other 500 people at camp, we had the ability to bring our bikes - which cut down enormously on the long distances between various program areas. We had planned ahead - program wise - better than we EVER had in the 3 years I've gone to camp with the troop. Every boy was prepared with the pre-requisite work he needed for merit badges, materials, documentaion of work done outside camp, etc. I stayed very positive and encouraging to the boys, accompanying them to various program areas whenever they slumped into apathy over the rain. they didn't want to take their swim tests, they didn't want to participate in the new camper program, they didn't want to try for any troop awards or even personal awards. they dropped out of badge classes right and left - because of the rain - they said. The other leader stuck with the boys in cooking class - seeing that difficult badge through with them - but outside of that class, she worked with her son - who is a special needs kid. I got to spend part of ONE afternoon with my son. I stayed "UP", until thursday night - when the cough I had started camp with sunday, came back full force and i went to bed early. But by Friday - their attitudes had worn me down, - and i just wanted to go home, too. Where do I go from here? how do i regain the troops trust in me? how do I regain the confidence i USED to have with these boys? they mean so much to me!

but it's a 'dry' heat - right? I dunno - hot is hot - I don't think the heat bothers me as much as the humidity - With our families allergies and my weight - it seems when it gets really hot and humid i just can't BREATHE - it really gets to me. Last summer at camp we started the week with high 90's to 100+ temps and high humidity. Many of the boys were sick - headachy and diarrea in the beginning of the week. midweek we had a storm and it backed off to 95 - but the humidity and the skeeters were horrible. It was too hot & sticky to sleep - the minute you left the lake or the shower I was drenched in sweat. We had alot of rashes from kids walking around in wet clothes - trying to cool off by waterfights and dousing themselves at the pumps. this year, to prepare, i kept our AC off as much as possible - as last year I had been working every day in a refrigerated office prior to camp (have to keep it cool for those lawyers to wear their suits)I do think the AC acclimatizes your body to not be used to the extreme differences. I also tried to work outside in the heat everyday some - But this year at camp it rained. EVERY DAY. Actually, we only got dumped on the first day or so - after that it was occasional drizzles, mists, or cloudbursts, just once a day. kept it cool - nights got down to high 60's and low 70's - great sleeping weather - kept the skeeters down too. I thought it was great - the boys were very depressed by the rain, though. i was really surprised by how much they let a litle water affect their fun. They only got really wet once - and i took everyones uniforms into town and dried them in a laundromat. nobody's tent leaked, no one had wet clothes or sleeping bags - except by leaving their own stuff out or not taking rain gear with them when they left camp. some of my best memories of scout and family camping trips are facing the challenges of weather, rain, missing equipment or other unpredictables. I'm thinking the ease of our push button, climate controlled life is really spoiling everyone for the realities of life?

Doesn't he have to do a conservation / camping related service project as well as the 3 badges? Seems I read that somewhere... But we're getting ready to go off to camp and our books are all packed.... Anybody else know the requirements?

I think the idea of "how many" boys would choose sewing or tailoring as a life career is a moot point - how many choose basketry or pottery as a 'career'? they don't all choose to be financial planners, either, but Personal Management is Eagle required and covers many necessary-to-life skills. I worked through college as a seamstress doing alterations. I was making $12 - $15 an hour in the early '80's part time working for myself - easy stuff like hemming jeans, sewing on buttons and letters on sports jackets, and replacing busted jeans zippers for people who could have done it themselves easily. "Tailoring" or "Quilting" are high art forms. "Sewing" is a necessary life skill. It's truly pitiful to see a grown man toss aside perfectly good, expensive clothes because he's too lazy or ashamed to learn to sew on a button or mend a ripped seam. When I was in college I had 3 male friends buy their own basic sewing machines and learn how to use them. They didn't want to make their own clothes - they just got tired of buying new stuff when something no longer fit or got torn. They viewed it as an investment in maintaining their independance. the facts are that people often don't marry (or find a mate) until long after they establish households of their own nowadays. not all women know how to sew, either, so Mom, wife or girlfriend isn't going to be around to save your (exposed) butt from that torm pocket! If a guy has to learn to cook for himself and do his own laundry, maintain his home (or apartment) and manage his finances, it makes sense that he should at least be able to do minor repair sewing. I've started making my son do his own laundry (seeing as he WEARS everything he EATS) - i'm getting tired of scrubbing stains and washing his stuff twice. he's now learning to use a napkin and not his shirt - because HE's starting to realize it's not so easy getting his favorite shirt clean again! He's fascinated with my sewing machine - it's a machine! it does cool stuff! he loves anything mechanical. and as he learns how hard it is to FIX some of the stuff he rips - maybe he'll think a little before using his shirt to play tug of war with the dog! maybe sewing doesn't deserve it's own badge - but it should be included in some kind of household management / life skills badge. Tailoring has it's values too - as someone pointed out tailoring is construction - you don't 'sew' a suit - you 'build' one. "Textiles" really doesn't cover any of this at all - it has to do with manufacturing and chemistry of fabrics.

you mean you rough it without a DVD player? seriously - I always have a spare set of clothes and shoes left in the car or bus or trailer - just in case. We once did a family camping week where it rained - HARD - for 6 straight days. We were up near Watersmeet, on a canoeing trip. no shelter except tents - and they were the old fashioned canvas kind. everything was wet - my tennis shoes were singed on the inside & had "US FOREST SERVICE" melted into the bottom of them from standing on the rim of the firebowls trying to warm up my wet feet. After 5 days of downpour, we gave up, paddled out, and checked into a motel. Also - i really, really like a sheet liner in my sleeping bag. it feels cooler than the hot flannel lining on a hot night,and not as sticky as nylon, it can be a light cover to keep off mosquitoes, i can drape it over my head to keep the bugs off, wad it up for an extra pillow, it keeps my sleeping bag cleaner, use it to be a ghost in a skit, or a 'curtain', loan it to a boy whose sleeping bag got wet, in winter it keeps the drafts out and absorbs moisture, i can drape it over my face for warmth without moisture accumulating and it dries faster the next day than the sleeping bag.