Kudu

Fishsqueezer, yes, BSA applications for membership clearly indicate that what appears on the form is an "excerpt from the Declaration of Religious Principle (DPR)." http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-501.pdf You agree to the full DRP in the same way that you agree to all of the rules & regulations of the BSA sight unseen, only some of which appear in bold print in various BSA publications available to the public. When I looked up the Declaration on the BSA website it has this definition: That is from "Scouting Terms and Style," an informal collection of Scouting definitions. Essentially it is the same text. I would emphasize that is says "willing to subscribe to THIS declaration" indicating that it is THE declaration. Well, I would emphasize that the full sentence reads "Only adults willing to subscribe to this declaration of principle and the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of leadership." The Bylaws are where the full Declaration of Religious Principle appears. You may read them by making an appointment with your local Council office. They are as follows: "National Council Boy Scouts of America CHARTER AND BYLAWS OF THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA 'A SCOUT IS REVERENT' SECTION 1 Declaration of Religious Principles: Clause 1. The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law." The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary for the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely non-sectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policies that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life." At one time, the full DRP appeared in many places on the BSA's Website. I believe that the only remaining instance is in a "Board of Review Training" pdf file which (for the time being) you may find by searching "18-625WB.online.doc" As far as a free marketplace, your organization is an existing and operating scouting organization. How are you being prevented from operating as an independent alternative? All Scouting associations in the United States that use the term "Scout" eventually receive the same "cease and desist" form letter from the BSA's legal representative. The potentially precedent-forming case to watch is that of the "YouthScouts," which is being heard in San Francisco. If the YouthScouts get a favorable ruling, the BSA must appeal to the 9th Circuit, and from there to Ralph Nader's new Supreme Court, see: http://youthscouts.org/news.html Dan, "sod surfing"? Kudu

Trevorum writes: You said that by signing the DRP, Scouts have affirmed "... they believe in a god who putters around with their daily lives..." This is dandy rhetoric, but I think it vastly misstates the BSA position. When you signed your application, you agreed that "The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members." I don't see how you can possibly parse those words to mean anything other than belief in an active, intervening god who is not only personal, but needs to be gratefully acknowledged for his personal favors and blessings. "BSA does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion" There is NO contradiction between these two policies. Once you have signed a statement recognizing God as the ruling and leading power in the universe, and agreeing that people who do not acknowledge his favors and blessings are bad citizens, then you are free to define "God" any way you like. The Declaration of Religious Principle (DRP) limits Scouting to people who will sign just about anything in order to get in. If a six-year-old's father refuses to sign the DRP, the BSA will go to court to deny Scouting to that six-year-old (as you certainly know!). Now is turning your back on a six-year-old boy the action of well-meaning people who do "not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion"? No, it is the action of those do not define what constitutes belief in God only for those who are willing to sign a Declaration affirming that "the recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship...." Once you have signed something like that, who cares what you say you meant when you signed it? Kudu Establish a free market that allows alternative Scouting associations based on progressive spiritual values, and free minds will follow.

Bobanon writes: I know the BSA does not allow atheist, however you never read or see anything on the subject of agnosticism. What is the BSA policy on Agnostic Scouts and Scouters. When you joined the BSA you agreed to obey its rules & regulations. These rules are not widely distributed but if you want to read them you can make an appointment with your local BSA District Executive to view them under his supervision (eyes only). Of course wanting to know what the rules are may brand you not being "Obedient" and "Loyal" :-) From what the BSA writes on its website ("What allows the Boy Scouts of America to exclude atheists and agnostics from membership?"), it is reasonable to assume that it is against the rules to be agnostic. Not only is it against the rules to express the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknowable, but when you signed your Scouter application, you affirmed that: "The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this FUNDAMENTAL need of good citizenship should be kept before them. [emphasis added]" Most of the Buddhists, Unitarians, and Reform Jews that I know would have a problem with that, especially the second sentence, but that is what you signed. Perhaps there needs to be a concerted effort from within the organization to change. The BSA will eventually have to move into the 21st Century.... The BSA has no incentive to change. Those who refuse to sign the Declaration of Religious Principle are not in Scouting, and those who are in Scouting have not only affirmed that they believe in a god who putters around with their daily lives, but more importantly, have affirmed that children should be instructed that people who don't believe in this kind of god are not good citizens. The BSA, fresh from its victory in the Supreme Court which affirmed that as a private organization it can set its own membership rules, has no need to change its policies. Moreover, Bush just signed the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2006 (H.R.1815), which includes the "Support Our Scouts Act of 2005" (Section 1073), which helps insulate the BSA from local anti-discrimination laws. So, 21st Century legislation is already moving in the BSA's favor, and the looming mid-term elections "get out the vote" issue of gay adoption promises to move Congress even further to the right. I voted Libertarian in 2004, and will do so at the mid term elections, and in 2008. Then you should understand that the BSA is absolutely delighted with individuals and reformist organizations (such as "Scouting for All") that merely seek to change the BSA, be it from within or from without. For libertarians the problem with the BSA should not be its polices. The problem libertarians and moderate Republicans should have with the BSA is that the government established this self-described "religious organization" with a monopoly on Scouting. The "faith-based" BSA has "special rights" to the word "Scouting." Establish a free market that allows alternative Scouting associations, such as Baden-Powell Scouting, based on the progressive spiritual views of Baden-Powell and his father, and free minds will follow. Kudu See "B-P & Nature Knowledge": http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm

My question is why do conservative xtians feel this need to be persecuted? Obviously because we lost the war on Saint Patrick and Saint Valentine :-/ Kudu

I find it hard to believe that many people would give a "thumbs up" to a post with which they disagree, no mater how high its quality :-/ So what you have is an index of the popularity of a person's ideas, rather than the actual quality of his postings. Kudu

"The page cannot be displayed" Has anyone else been having mixed results in the last few days trying to get to "Topics from Last 24 Hours" from a bookmark? Kudu

Scouting Terms: US: Rank UK: Award US: Advancement UK: Progressive Training US: Leadership Position UK: Rank US: Election to PL or SPL, Appointment to APL, ASPL, TG, etc. UK: Promotion In Baden-Powell's Scouting, "Ranks" are appointed by the Scoutmaster Kudu

It should be noted that an actual "Polar Bear Swim" (cold weather jump into a cold lake) can be fatal. Some excerpts from Bob Amick's article on Polar Bear Swims at: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/winter/activities/polar_swim.htm I would recommend discussing this with your Council's Risk Management Committee and/or Scout Executive to be sure that they are aware of the proposed activity. I would be surprised if they would approve it. They in turn, may also want to review it with the National Director of Health and Safety/Risk Management. A lot depends on the actual water temperature. As you probably know, immersion hypothermia occurs about 30 times more quickly than wind chill conductive/convective hypothermia due to a complete lack of insulation and direct exposure to chilled water. Remember that children are far more susceptible to hypothermia than adults are due to lack of musculature and fatty tissue which serve to better reduce heat loss and generate heat more quickly. Immersion hypothermia also results in impaired breathing, and impaired ability to move muscles. Although many "polar bear" clubs do conduct such events in winter, there have been cases where individuals (usually adults, but youth are not immune) suffered heart attacks or other dramatic and severe responses from this exposure. There is no "direct" recommendation/restriction about these issues in the G2SS probably because it is a very uncommonly attempted activity and/or no mishaps have been reported that would create a need to address the activity in G2SS. As you know, the guide is frequently revised to address new findings and restrictions resulting from mishaps. There is the notation that exposure to very cold water (e.g., falling into the water on a river raft trip during Spring runoff where water may be 40 degrees F. or less) can be dangerous or fatal. Routine swimming activities in water below 65 degrees F., is generally prohibited by BSA camp inspection guidelines, so that might be an avenue to look at as well. Kudu

Be happy they brought in $1,500. Save the "parents or Scout" ethical soul-searching for the cubs' pinewood derby cars and advancement requirements :-) Kudu

Safety Afloat might be of passing interest to a Scout working on First Class requirement 9a: "Tell what precautions must be taken for a safe trip afloat." This was probably covered on his first day of Swimming Merit Badge (Requirement 3), but signing FC 9a off now, six months later, may not be automatic. Safety Afloat is an adult leader training. There's little benefit in it for a boy. All of the following Merit Badges require that the Scout review and discuss BSA Safety Afloat: Whitewater Small-Boat Sailing Lifesaving Rowing Canoeing When I go to pick him up and ask if he got them signed off, he says "he didn't want to" or "he wants to work on them for one more week." Try pairing him off with a more assertive buddy. Ideally these requirements should be signed off by his peers, an approachable and responsible Scout such as the Patrol Leader or Troop Guide. Limiting sign-off to adults only is part of the "Troop Method" and such adults should at least make an extra effort to reach shy Scouts if the Patrol Method is not in full swing. Real "Adult Association" is being practiced when the Scouts are running things well by themselves and the adults seem to be invisible. Kudu

Some years ago, the Red Cross rectangular "Emergency First Aid" patch was authorized for wear on the Scout Uniform on the right sleeve below the positions for the flag and region/local emblems (position 3 in current insignia guide parlance). This emblem is no longer available from the Red Cross, however. Since this patch has already been authorized by the BSA you might: 1) Try the patch traders' forum to see where you can purchase a used one. I couldn't find one on eBay, but I'm sure that there are boxes of them somewhere. 2) Investigate the process of making patches from a computer scan of the original patch. I can get a scan if your are interested. I believe that this kind of equipment is even available to sewing hobbyists, so someone in your community (your church or sponsoring organization, for example) might do it for free. 3) See what is involved in getting the Red Cross to reissue the patch. If they are unwilling, see if the Red Cross's competitors would be willing to step up (Fortunately Congress did not grant the Red Cross a monopoly on the words "Emergency First Aid"). You might already belong to such a public service organization. 4) Given the common perception last summer that the BSA could be more "prepared" in making the safety of their Scouts a priority, perhaps this is the perfect time for some good deed doer to use his connections to create a new official national badge of some sort, or to at least make available the Red Cross badge one way or another. Of course, you could just wear a commonly available EMT patch on your right "temporary patch" pocket. I doubt that anyone would object, but to make it official you might talk someone at your local Council into "authorizing" such a local temporary patch. Kudu

I've been in that Scoutmaster's position before. As new people join the Troop and old people leave, the newcomers assume that lanterns, stoves, Dutch ovens, backpacks, and even tents, must all belong to the Troop. Even recently, a couple of years ago when our Venturing Crew brought in new outsiders, the question "May we use your propane stove this weekend?" became "Where is the propane stove?" It seems obvious, but if you loan equipment to your Troop: 1) Mark your personal equipment in some way. 2) Keep your receipts (if you still have them) where you can find them in the future if necessary. II. If your Troop has little money and you purchase new equipment with your own money with the understanding that you will some day be reimbursed: 1) Submit the receipts for consumables (neckerchief material), things that are likely to disappear (used backpacks), and things that you would not want to take with you before you submit receipts for stuff that you would not want to donate to your Troop if you moved. 2) Keep copies of any receipts that you submit to your Treasurer for reimbursement if the check is not always written at the same time as you submit the receipts. III. Organize fund raisers or equipment donation drives so that the Troop can obtain their own equipment. Kudu

I wear backpacking boots 7 days a week because I need ankle support due to an old injury. Mine are about two pounds per boot. I don't feel comfortable without a pair of tightly laced, indestructible boots on my feet! If you get the right size hiking boots (usually 1/2 size larger than your regular shoe size) and wear a pair of heavy non-cotton socks with a pair of non-cotton sock liners, you won't get blisters (the socks rub against each other rather than your skin). The sock liners wick off most of the sweat even in hot weather. Most people recommend wearing a new pair of boots for at least a few weeks before backpacking. The only time I ever got blisters as an adult was the one day I wore official BSA hiking socks at summer camp :-/ They are expensive (though thrift stores are a good solution) You should also goggle "used hiking boots" (with the quotes). Evidently they are also available on Ebay and MSN, and you can sort by price. Kudu

I can't imagine backpacking without hiking boots. If for no other reason, if you sprain your ankle or injure your foot you will be a burden. I require my Scouts to wear them when we head for the back country. If a Scout simply can't afford them, I get his shoe size and buy a pair for $5 in a thrift store and charge it to his account. If you are not in a hurry, you can find some really good used boots, why not? Kudu

Lisa'bob writes: Does anybody build specific sign-off time into their meetings? For us this is just part of the testing process. Sign-off means they knew it when it was signed-off, so if they forget their handbook, then they will get briefly tested again when they finally bring it to a meeting. Usually testing happens a week after instruction but not always. For instance the Five Mile Hike is part of our First Class orienteering requirement in which each Scout leads the group while bushwhacking on three different bearings of at least 1/4 mile each on a local orienteering course. By the end of the day they know their stuff and are signed off right away. In theory this is how every requirement should be covered: outdoors as a natural part of the program camping year. Does anybody do any kind of "skill refresher" specifically for those scouts (or adults) who are in a position to be signing the books? The easiest way is to just have them instruct the skill with the book open. You don't really learn anything until you teach it. The spiral-bound BSA Handbook is great for that! At one time we took the older Scouts on overnight "Green Bar" campouts September, January, and April (leave Friday night, return Saturday evening), and had them practice teaching each other the skills they would be teaching at the next three or four campouts. These were very relaxed campouts and they liked not having younger Scouts along. This practice made a big improvement in the quality of instruction. Before 1972, teaching boys how to lead their Patrol in advancement in such a manner was part of a six-month Patrol Leader Training course, back when we taught them "how to run a Patrol" rather than "how to be a leader." Such a "Green Bar" instruction course can be found at: http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm Kudu

CNYScouter writes: If you look at Kudo's post he ends with a quote: "The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method!" I've seen this attributed to both BP and his contempory Roland Phillips so I am not sure who exactly said this. William Hillcourt, the father of the BSA Patrol Method, attributes it to Roland Phillips on page 161 of the 1936 Handbook for Scoutmasters. Recent BSA publications mistakenly attribute it to Baden-Powell (as they also did "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose"), but you won't find either quote in any collection of B-P quotes in which the original source is cited. Kudu

For me, authorization to sign off requirements is a matter of personality rather than policy, because BSA Patrol Leaders & SPLs are elected, rather than appointed as Baden-Powell intended. The ideal is to have the Patrol Leader sign off because, as William Hillcourt noted, it is one of the tangible elements of his authority over his Patrol. At that time, however, much instruction was done by the Patrol Leader at independent Patrol Meetings and Patrol Hikes. Currently I only allow our Troop Guide to sign off requirements because his standards are higher than most of our adults. He is usually at every meeting and outing, but if not then I allow adults or older Scouts to sign off on the skills that they have instructed. I like to see some time pass between instruction and testing, however. SueM writes: One day he showed up with his handbook requesting a SM conference and had requirements signed of for 2 1/2 ranks...all signed off by his older brother, who is one of our Eagle Scouts and still semi-active with the troop. I have serious doubts if all requirements were done as the scout couldn't demonstrate to me that he had a clear understanding of some of them but a scout is trustworthy, so I had to accept what I saw and sent him for a BoR. Yes, you "had to" because of the BSA dictum against "retesting" :-/ In Baden-Powell Scouting, retesting is part of the early requirements. The last Second Class requirement is to re-pass all of the Tenderfoot requirements, and the second-to-last First Class requirement is to re-pass the Second Class requirements. As a practical matter, this retesting is usually done in the form of helping the Patrol Leader instruct these skills. As for the older Scouts, their Proficiency ("Merit") Badges are worn on the Uniform rather than a sash. The Badges indicate current proficiency, and may no longer be worn when the Scout looses proficiency in a subject. For instance, a Scout may not wear a first aid badge if he does not annually undergo first aid re-certification. As the Scout progresses through the program, the final test of his or her outdoor skills takes the form of progressive "Journeys" or "Expeditions" of increasing difficulty, beginning with the adult-free eight mile Second Class Journey. During the overnight "First Class Journey," if an adult interacts with the Scouts for any reason, then this 15 mile backpacking trip must be taken over. Kudu

I understand that National has taken the GTSS away from the professional scouting staff and hired a professional from the Risk Management sector to revamp the entire guide. I thought the Guide to Safe Scouting (GTSS) was written by lawyers to protect the BSA's assets, rather than risk experts from the insurance industry. If so, I doubt that anything would change unless it is decided that pioneering projects six feet off the ground are far too risky now :-/ Do you think that the politically correct rule against "laser tag" will soon be evaluated purely on the actual "risk" involved? :-/ Kudu

Kaji writes: Kudu: Where's this monopoly? ...I do beg to differ about there being one. Campfire ...Royal Rangers...Spiral Scouts The monopoly centers around the BSA's special rights to any word based on "Scout." This does not effect Campfire or Royal Rangers, but the existence of programs such as Spiralscouts will hinge on a legal challenge launched by a group named Youthscouts. The case will be heard in San Francisco, and if they get a favorable ruling the BSA will have to appeal to the Ninth Circuit. So it is possible that Americans might soon become aware of the fact that other countries allow freedom in Scouting. See: http://youthscouts.org/news.html If you don't like the fact that they don't have the prestige that the BSA has attained, then perhaps that's a sign that people in those programs need to go out and do great things as well, and not be ashamed of their associations with the program. I agree completely, although a Scouting association based on Baden-Powell's ideas would be all-volunteer except for clerical positions. So, almost by definition a Baden-Powell Scouting association would not be interested in the corporate numbers game "prestige" of the BSA. Eagledad writes: Boy, lets just say we are on to completely different planets here. I agree! Anger was the farthest emotion from my mind. Me either! Isn't that a coincidence? :-) Confusion best describes my reaction to your post. Thank you for your efforts to understand. Most readers probably just skip on to the next post. I just couldnt see how you were answering my question on the subject of the BSA going coed. I'm not. I believe that it will take less effort to establish new Scouting associations than it will to change the BSA. So I assumed I didnt ask the question clearly, thats all. I am still learning how to write clearly. You know what new Junior Leaders often say, "I explained it perfectly, but nobody understood." Your last explanations makes a little more sense on your thinking of program problems, but a bit of a reach for the justification of two major youth organizations going coed. Perhaps #4 should read: "4) To solve these problems, a minority should consider the option of establishing alternative Scouting programs that:" I believe that an American branch of the UK Baden-Powell Scouts Association would solve most of the problems that Americans have with the BSA. I dont see how it solves your monopoly complaint, which seems is the base of your post. Im lost on your format of thought here. So again, my bad? The thing about government-established monopolies is that they are so all-pervasive that people are not even aware of them. It reminds me of the movie "The Matrix." They say that nobody knows who discovered water, but it certainly was not a fish! Kudu

What? My bad, I was referring to problems that a coed program would fix. Still, I get the feeling you are little angry with the BSA, and that is fine because I hear there is a line, but maybe this discussion is not the right place to express that anger. No, Barry! I insist that it was my bad for making you a "little angry" with me and forcing you to speculate on what my feelings must have been when I made you so, um, "angry." And that is fine, Barry, because I hear there is a line, but maybe this discussion is not the right place to express that anger! :-) I was referring to problems that a coed program would fix. OK, in a nutshell: 1) One "problem" that a coed program would fix is that American girls are short-changed because the GSUSA has few if any outdoor advancement requirements that are, you know, required. 2) Likewise boys are short-changed because a BSA Scout may progress all the way to Eagle without ever having walked into the woods with a pack on his back. 3) A Scouting program is best measured by its advancement requirements, not by what Scouts are allowed to do as an option when they happen to stumble upon a Troop with an inspired outdoor leader. 4) To solve these problems, a minority might consider the option of joining a Scouting program that: a) Uses Baden-Powell's Advancement program, based on more rigorous outdoor Advancement requirements than are currently practiced in the United States. b) Has identical requirements for both boys and girls. c) (My own preference is to have) male and female Troops within a Group that function independently enough from each other that adult supervision does not interfere with a truly adult-free Patrol System. d) Most importantly, does not involve convincing Americans such as yourself that there is a problem with their association that a coed program would fix. In other words, the problem with Scouting in the United States is not the program, the problem is the monopoly. Kudu

Barry asks: So I have to ask, what is the problem that needs fixing? The BSA program is already accepted as one of the best youth values programs in the US. Its not as if our youth need releaf from a segregated world that doesnt allow them to mix at school, church, band and even some sports. So what values will be gained by making a major change to our already successful program? The same thing would be said by Microsoft if Congress had granted them a monopoly on software: Why force us to make major changes to our already successful command line DOS just because other countries allow graphical interfaces? Or McDonald's if Congress granted them a monopoly on hamburgers. Why force us to make a major change to our already successful fried hamburgers just because some people like them flame-broiled? Or America On Line if Congress had granted them an online monopoly: Why force us to allow our members access to non-AOL content just because some people want to connect to the actual Internet? The problem that needs fixing is the monopoly, not the program. The BSA has special rights that allow religious conservatives to define Scouting, and exclude from Scouting any Americans who do not sign a pledge to support those values. This religious choke hold on Scouting protects the BSA from the corrective forces of a free market economy. I have met Girl Scout troops in the backwoods that can out-march my Scouts, but the problem with both the GSUSA and the BSA is that they do not have deep woods Advancement requirements. This means that there is no standardized backpacking element, just hit or miss. Believe it or not, you no longer have to go backpacking to earn the BSA Camping Merit Badge! If you believe that putting a pack on your back and walking into the woods with all of the equipment you need to enjoy the wilderness close up is the whole point of Scouting, then in America you must motivate your Scouts to do so, because it is "adding to the requirements" and not a universal element of either program. So the advantage of a free market economy is that if you want your girls (or boys) to experience backpacking as a standard part of their Scouting program, you could choose Baden-Powell Scouting which still retains Baden-Powell's original expedition Advancement requirements. These have been dumbed-down and out of the BSA. But look up the First Class requirements in old BSA Scout Handbooks and you will find the BSA's version of Baden-Powell's "First Class Journey". In B-P's version of Scouting, these expeditions continue on with increasing difficulty as a Scout advances: an unsupervised eight mile hike for 2nd Class, the 15 mile overnight "First Class Journey," and an unsupervised 20 mile overnight journey through rugged territory for the required Senior Scout Venturer Badge. Kudu

Polar opposite of the traditional uniform? I don't think so. Except for some cosmetic adjustments over the decades, it's basically the same uniform my dad and grandad wore. That may be true for the Cub Scout Uniform which was designed for the indoors. The Scout Uniform is the polar opposite in terms of function. William Hillcourt wrote that the all-green BSA Uniform was designed to be worn outdoors where it blended in with the colors of forest. The current Uniform was created by a dress designer for cosmetic indoor use. What is the traditional uniform? In most of the world this would be the khaki shirt and dark blue pants as designed by Baden-Powell and worn until the world-wide WOSM program popularizations in the late 1960s. The Traditional Uniform is changed only for health & safety concerns (i.e. cotton), advances in technology, and economic reasons (like the availability of off-the-shelf uniform shirts and pants). In the BSA the Traditional Uniform would be an outdoor Uniform in the context of the Methods of Scouting designed by William Hillcourt and practiced until his program was gutted by popularists in 1972. The military-style that was worn in the 10's and 20's? Well, they had the right idea: abundant, inexpensive, state-of-the-art outdoor clothing. The problem of the ugly BSA hothouse pants could be solved most easily by having them manufactured by the same factories that produce "military-style" olive-drab BDUs down to size six (6). Put a few BSA buttons on them and presto, you have outdoor cargo pants that boys want to wear, are more comfortable, more practical, and better constructed. See: http://www.inquiry.net/uniforms/bdu.htm Note on the above URL, that for the same retail price (but not the same profit margin, I am sure) you can find in good outdoor companies like REI and EMS, off-the-shelf high-tech breathable nylon outdoor clothing. The Rockwell paintings are great and inspiring, but I have noticed that those old neckerchiefs were much too big. I have to admit I have never heard that complaint before :-) Usually adults find that the "half-necker" size is too small. The Traditional Neckerchief size of 32" (square) was designed for practical use as an arm sling, head bandage, and 21 other first aid uses, plus 10 general and 23 Scouting uses, see: http://www.inquiry.net/uniforms/neckerchief/matching.htm But hey, that was the style and they enjoyed it. Like the rest of the Scout Uniform, style followed function. The Traditional Scout Uniform was designed to be a practical icon of outdoor adventure, and that is why they enjoyed it :-) Kudu

We don't have a "feeder Pack," so I recruit in the public schools where Scouts usually join because they want to go camping with their friends. If after a year the NSP is functioning as a tightly bonded Patrol of best friends, then I don't break them up because such a group is the very definition of the Patrol Method! We also have mixed-aged Patrols. The advantages are: 1. Mixed Patrols are usually a result of the older Scouts recruiting younger brothers and their friends. So these different-aged Scouts are already accustomed to playing street football and other activities together despite their differences in age. Incidentally, we don't usually have a problem with brothers in the same Patrol. 2. These younger Scouts are completely immersed among older role models who know how to camp. 3. As the Scouts get older, they can't always make it to campouts due to jobs, sports, and other commitments. Mixed-aged Patrols insure a greater turn-out at campouts, and the survival of the Patrol. 4. Ideally, it is the Patrol Leader who teaches and signs off requirements. Ideally, this is the natural result of of a good camping program. Ideally :-) Kudu

There is no evidence of the "icon" neckerchief going away that I can tell. By "icon" I mean the Norman Rockwell image, not the indoor, under the collar custom which James West hated so much :-) http://www.normanrockwellvt.com/BoyScouts/b040.gif http://www.normanrockwellvt.com/BoyScouts/b038.gif http://www.normanrockwellvt.com/BoyScouts/TheDailyGoodTurn.jpg http://www.normanrockwellvt.com/BoyScouts/b031.gif Of course at this time the whole Scout Uniform was an outdoor icon, and the Neckerchief was promoted as part of a robust tradition that went back to the "buckskin pioneers" and the later "plains scout" settlers, see: http://inquiry.net/uniforms/neckerchief/swn1.htm One exception is adult leaders tend to avoid them for less formal gatherings or active outdoor activities. Overall, Troops enforce them as a part of the full "Class A" uniform. Yes, the de la Renta Uniform is the polar opposite of the Traditional Uniform. Kudu

Before a man named William Hillcourt brought the Patrol System with him from Denmark, the BSA experts published official "Grouping Standards" by which the "Scout Master" arbitrarily divided the Troop into Patrols, If height is used, boys of fifty-six and a half inches in height and classifying under ninety pounds in weight, might be grouped together. Also boys of sixty-three inches in height and coming within the one hundred and ten pound weight. Presumably loyal BSA Scouters carried tape measures with them to be sure that a Scout didn't break official BSA policy by remaining in his Patrol when he grew from fifty-six and a half inches to fifty-seven inches :-/ From your description it sounds like your new Scouts have been in the Troop long enough to have some idea of what the different Patrols are like. If you are not using a "New Scout Patrol (NSP)," has anyone asked them which Patrol they would like to join? We use both methods: some Patrols are all the same age and some are mixed, but we never break up the NSP. All things being equal, older boys don't always want to associate with younger boys. For what it is worth, I have found that they are more interested in recruiting younger Scouts into their Patrols when you convince the PLC to do away with the idea that Patrol contests need to be "fair." For instance, if you play a game like dodge ball at your weekly meetings, why do the sides need to be even? Play by Patrols even if only a couple of Scouts from a Patrol show up. In fact we sometimes pit the entire Troop against a Patrol of only three or four older Scouts :-/ We also use the same technique when I recruit a dozen Scouts into the Troop at one time, pitting the new Scouts' Patrol against the entire Troop for at least one game to give them an idea that their Patrol is a team. It breaks the ice to see that the older Scouts are not invincible. But I digress :-) Kudu