Kudu

Kahuna is correct, but he fails to mention that the Wood Badge Beaver Patrol is always the first, and therefore the best Patrol! Congratulations on your standing up for the right to fly the flag. n4ari said flay the US flag, Kahuna: to criticize harshly, to excoriate or censure scathingly :-/ Kudu

Instructions on how our Troop makes the 32" "full square" neckerchief, plus two different early histories of the BSA neckerchief (including long lists of practical uses for the full neckerchief) can be found at The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/uniforms/neckerchief The last time we made them, they cost us about $2 each. If you study at the old Norman Rockwell paintings, you will see that it is the full square neckerchief (when worn correctly over the collar), that gives Rockwell's Scouts that classical "Boy Scout" look. likewise, if you look at the neckerchief in the beginning of the Indiana Jones movie that features the young Indiana as a Boy Scout, you will notice that the neckerchiefs of that era often did not have any printing on them. However, if you want to add a design, consider ordering the inverted triangle patches designed for neckerchiefs. Baden-Powell and James E. West probably turned over in their graves when they heard that the BSA's dress designer had demoted the BSA neckerchief into a fashion accessory by designing Scout shirt collars that required that the neckerchief be worn under them :-/ Wearing It Right James E. West, Chief Scout Executive, says "We are anxious to have the co-operation of every Scout and Scout Official in making effective the regulations covering the Official Uniform, Insignia and Badges. To tolerate a conscious disregard for requirements, even in simple matters, breeds disrespect for law and order. "When I have found boys wearing the neckerchief, under instead of over the shirt collar, it developed that invariably the Scouts, and indeed their own Scoutmaster, did not understand the correct way of wearing the neckerchief. I am anxious that every Scout and Scout Official study the diagram, wear the neckerchief in the right way, and that he invite the attention of other fellows to the right way, when he finds them wearing it wrong." http://kudu.net/uniforms/neckerchief/swn1.htm#west

The Uniform Method was reinstated with Hillcourt's new Scoutmaster's handbook then, but they didn't allow him to restore the rest of his Methods of Scouting. Hillcourt was still an outsider. I'm not sure how much a historian can dig up. I suspect that the national uniform committee exists only on paper, and I also believe that Irving Texas has less control over BSA Supply than most of us assume. This move toward modernization wasn't limited to the United States, although the fact that the BSA is run by corporate managers probably had a significant influence. As the number of Scouts declined worldwide, WOSM associations around the globe abandoned traditional Scouting techniques in an effort to appeal to the perceived values and interests of the new "youth culture." The first thing to go was the uniforms. I once saw somebody's hand-typed graduate thesis at a Scouting patch collectors' trade-o-ree. It was a national survey of different people's impressions of the Scout Uniform, done during this era. I could kick myself for not buying it! Kudu

I would be interested in Miki101's account of this. It seems like the Oscar de la Renta Uniform was part of a progressive-modernist movement that began in the early 1970s with the goal of reforming the "outing" out of Scouting. Kudu

There is no provision in BSA for a unit to develop its own "troop uniform". More importantly, there is no rule against it. Reality Check: Depending on where you live, you may never meet these negative Internet "Uniform Policemen" in real life. In fact back in the mid-1990s there was a running joke among the District Executives in our Council Office. They said that they could always tell when I was debating the Uniform in Scouting forums by how upset their secretaries would get when they had to take messages from "people from the Internet" who telephoned the SE to report that my troop was wearing BDUs :-/ Back when nylon zip-off cargo pants were first introduced as a high-end product in stores like Eastern Mountain Sports, I wore an olive-drab pair to a week-long national Okpik training course. One of Irving's top senior BSA executives noticed them and told me that they had already tried to introduce them as an official BSA product! So the moral is, you will probably discover more like-minded BSA professionals by wearing the uniform the way you think is right, than you will by wearing it the way the Internet "Uniform Police" tell you. Do you ever have anything positive to say about BSA? Click on the "Posts" field under my name and you will see that I have plenty of positive things to say about William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's BSA model of Scouting. I believe that the 1970s liberal modernists who deconstructed Hillcourt's contributions, and the equally clueless neo-conservative religious fundamentalists who now control the BSA, don't really have that much of an influence on what happens week to week in our own units. Those who support this Scouter.Com website by purchasing back issues of Scouter Magazine can read in Issue #5 (the "Scout Out the Net" issue) my article "Marijus" and Scouter Terry's accompanying piece to judge all this for themselves :-) http://www.scouter.com/catalog/backissues/default.asp Kudu

Running one's personal version of Scouting and intentionally violating the letter and spirit of BSA hardly seems to be an honorable basis upon which to teach boys to make ethical choices over their lifetimes. The whole point of this thread is to design Troop Uniforms that do not violate the "letter" of BSA policy. As for the "spirit" of the Uniform Method, in the 70-year history of the Boy Scouts of America prior to the introduction of the dress-designer uniform, except for swimming is there a single photograph or drawing depicting a Boy Scout camping out of Uniform? My books are packed right now, so I don't know the answer to that question. I invite you to look and then report back. Kudu

Thanks for the advice FScouter, it means a lot coming from you :-)

Now, I do have to make some assumptions that Christ's actions have been relatively accurately portrayed in the Bible, but I find it more likely that his words might be distorted than accounts of his actions. I'd say just the opposite. The accounts of his supernatural miracles are suspect, but his moral allegories as recorded by his chosen disciples may be intact. Most people do not realize that B-P's father, Rev. Baden Powell (first name "Baden," last name "Powell" -- no hyphen) was more famous (or infamous--he was charged with heresy, after all) in the 19th century than his son was in the 20th century. He was the first cleric in England to support Darwin. It was this liberal pro-evolution, anti-supernatural theological movement (of which Rev. Baden Powell was the spearhead) that gave birth to the Bible-literalist backlash which is so well represented in the BSA today. So you could say that we have Baden Powell to thank for Christian fundamentalism. It is ironic that religious fundamentalists now have control of the government-established monopoly on Scouting in the United States :-/ From Tim Jeal's biography Baden-Powell: "In The Order of Nature he finally abandoned his earlier attempts to find satisfactory rational proof of the validity of Christian belief. Instead he now stressed the personal spiritual appeal of Jesus' teaching, claiming that the only 'proof' Christianity required was contained in the moral truth of the Gospels. Such arguments placed him far closer to the Unitarians and to radical theologians like Blanco White and Francis Newman than to his old colleagues in the Anglican Church. "During the 1850s, many clerics explained away evolutionary theories by arguing that the gaps in the fossil record and the apparent suddenness of changes in species could only be explained by God's decision to create anew every time conditions became unfavorable for existing species. In The Order of Nature Baden Powell poured scorn on such last-ditch arguments. In the October issue of the influential Quarterly Review his book was savaged by the Archbishop of Dublin and others. Far from recanting, Professor Powell sent off a still more trenchant essay--in which he demolished the historical authenticity of the miracles--for inclusion in a collection provisionally entitled Essays and Reviews." See: http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm Kudu

"It might be very different if worn by some scouting reform organization." Like the Kuduscouts? Baden-Powell Scouts! http://www.1sttarrantbpscouts.org/Info.html Baden-Powell's system had an entirely different approach to insignia, so there is no need to use the BSA's badges. If I was going to "reform" the BSA, I would base a "Traditional" (back to basics) Scouting movement on William Hillcourt's name or nickname: "Green Bar Bill Scouts" maybe :-) "Traditional Scouting" is usually defined as a return to the founder's original program (Hillcourt in this case), making changes only for reasons of health & safety, environmental concerns (Leave No Trace), and advances in fabrics & lightweight equipment. The skeptics are correct, however. An organized effort to return to Hillcourt's program within the BSA would be quickly nipped in the bud. It is better to just read his books and quietly follow his advice in your own unit. Kudu

Kahuna asks: So, how do Scouters go about calling for a uniform revision? There is a national uniform committee. Has anybody raised this issue with any of them? The people on the national boards are people who live in our communities, although we don't always know who they are. I would be happy to explain the process for you, Kahuna! As you know, in the olden days almost everybody knew somebody who knew somebody who knew somebody rumored to be in the national uniform committee. You don't hear about that anymore because the bipartisan Friends of Scouting in Congress (FOSC) was able to add a provision to the Patriot Act which now ties the design process of the Official BSA Uniform to the security interests of the United States. The actual name of this national BSA committee is classified, but it is referred to by informed outsiders as the "secret committee." Despite all the secrecy, the committee is still comprised entirely of Scouting volunteers, just regular guys who live in our own communities in sleeper-cells among us. As you can imagine, the identities of the members are a closely guarded secret. In fact if I, Kudu, were a secret committee member, I could never reveal it. But let's just say that the next time you snap a button on the tiny Merit Badge Cargo Pockets of your Official BSA Scout Pants, or feel constrained by the elastic on your Official BSA Scout Shorts, you would not be completely amiss to say "Thank you, Kudu!" Believe me, I speak from experience when I say that one person can really impact the lives of millions of Scouts and Scouters! Due to national security concerns you can no longer contact the secret committee, so obviously if you want to influence the design of the Uniform you must first become a member of the committee yourself! I am allowed to reveal to you that the selection process is completely relevant to the task at hand. Call it coincidence (hint, hint), but all of the secret committee members were recruited while golfing at the Irving Texas Country Club where the Religious Right walks their BSA lap dogs! Once you visit this pastoral paradise, you will realize how completely groundless are the vicious rumors that BSA Scouting executives spend their entire lives in air-conditioned cubicals under fluorescent lamps, out of touch with the great outdoors! On the famous "back nine," precious contributions are wooed away from other, equally worthy neo-conservative causes by these busy BSA executives while they "field test" the BSA Uniform on the fairways for its suitability for the rugged wilderness conditions found at Camporees held in neatly manicured public parks. To improve your own chances of being selected for the honor of working within the system, consider spending all of your vacations at the Irving Texas County Club, allowing yourself to be "spotted" in a 1980s golfing outfit contemporary with the Official BSA Uniform. These un-loved, garish outfits (un-loved 1980s 100% polyester golf clothes, that is, not the equally un-loved 1980s BSA Uniforms) can still be found in thrift stores here on the mainlands retirement areas! To improve your own chances of this secret signal being noticed, look for golf clothing in fluorescent greens like our Scout Pants; and the bold, unnatural combinations of colors found in the BSA Scout Shirt Christmas tree devices. Red epaulettes, for instance, are always an appropriate homage to our beloved BSA dress designer. The most important detail is a good GOLF HAT! For mine, I created a miniature replica of the Battle of the Alamo, but you will have to come up with your own design. Just think in terms of an over-all fashion statement that screams "TEXAS!" and signals your respect for the fashion tastes of the secret committee members who have labored so hard for so long to keep the current "vintage" Official Boy Scout Uniform from ever being changed. I can't make any guarantees, but if you take the time to understand the logic of the BSA Uniform, by this time next year you too could be working within the system rather than just talking about it! Kudu

Ed asks: The god Saturn? And pray, what does this god do that would make anyone want to celebrate it? Well, for one thing, he has the coolest-looking planet. Kudu

By your reasoning, anyone who does anything that can be remotely tied to some pagan holiday (i.e. take time off from work, light candles, or dance), is celebrating that holiday. Thats ridiculous. Rooster, like most secularists, all you can think about is getting out of work, lighting some candles, and dancing! You fail to acknowledge the deeply spiritual aspects of this holy day: the celebration of peace on earth, gift giving, helping those less fortunate, and--of course--bringing evergreens into the home on the winter solstice to celebrate the rebirth of life. These are the deeply meaningful traditions of December 25th that make this day uniquely the celebration of the god Saturn. As Ed points out, Jesus was not born on December 25th. Christians just happened to pull the same day out of a hat, so to avoid all of the confusion, why not move it to the third Friday or Monday of December and make a three day weekend out of it? Kudu

Saturnalia was basically a sex & booze orgy! Ed, you are confusing Saturnalia with Christmas office parties. Kudu

ScoutingAgain, There might be room in the laser-tag section of the Guide to Safe Scouting for your proposed rules! Kudu scoutingagain writes: Hmmm, use the uniform method, just not with the official uniform.... So which group lives the scout law in it's everyday life. The unit that uses the uniform method, using a non-official uniform,(which as Kudu points out, seems to be within the rules of the BSA) or the unit which requires wearing of the official uniform at meetings and activities to maintain membership and achieve advancement within that unit, which is clearly against BSA policy? So what happens if everyone in a particular unit decided to wear T-shirts and BDUs while camping? We may need a rule that says BSA scouts and scouters shall not wear clothing that is not officially sanctioned by the BSA that would be similar in nature so as to give the appearance that the group is wearing a uniform. When not wearing the official BSA uniform, no more than two persons may wear pants of the same color or of similar design and appearance. No more than two persons may wear the same color shirt or a shirt of similar design and appearance. Units that choose not to wear the official BSA uniform must make every effort to appear as if they are not wearing a uniform. Units that disregard this rule shall be invited to form their own organization that may not appear to be associated with or to be or be considered similar to the BSA. Or they must wait until all members turn 14 years of age and form a Venture crew. Such a rule would save us from Kudu's uniform conspiracy. SA

Beavah, Mike Walton is AKA "Settummanque" or "Black Eagle," See: http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/mwalton.htm It was a long time ago, but I believe he was appointed by a local Council to accompany the police and go through the possessions of a molester. As I remember, he said that the warrant specified that they could seize everything with a BSA logo on it, but not third-party Scouting paraphernalia. Kudu

I am a Buddhist, but I have Christmas decorations up and I send Christmas cards...The trees are Christmas trees. So the Buddhists have declared war on Saturnalia? Our mainland Shangas didn't get the memo :-/ As Stephen Colbert said in his Traditional Christmas How-To Guide, the Roman practice of bringing an evergreen into the home and placing candles on it is such a traditional Christmas activity, that it predates the birth of Jesus Christ himself! Kudu

Could the problem be related to the semi-transparent login screen that reads "Please login to Scouter.Com to enjoy several new customized features and locally targeted content"? I didn't notice that until about the same time as the server errors. Kudu

It's not just you, the problem is also being discussed under the heading "Today's Active Topics" http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=118485 Kudu

And Saturnalia is celebrate where now? If you decorate your home with images of Santa (aka Father Time), light candles, bring greens into your home, take time off from work, celebrate peace on earth, give gifts, help those less fortunate, or dance in the new solar year, you are celebrating Saturnalia, even though some people in this increasingly secular age have forgotten the true meaning of this holy day. The Roman Empire no longer exists. Whereas Christianity does. Christianity was a product of the Roman Empire, and we celebrated that with mangers and angels until the Christians lost the war on Christmas in 2005, didn't we? Is Fox News showing any film footage from their embedded reporters in the war on Christmas? Kudu

Break down the word Christmas and you get Christ festival. Seems pretty apparent to me. Ed, break down the word "Saturnalia" and you get the neuter plural of saturnalis of Saturn, from Saturnus. Seems pretty apparent to me :-/ The term "Christmas" was only a temporary victory in the Christian's war on Saturnalia, 336 A.D. Fox News is reporting that they lost the war to the secular humanists in 2005. So if Christ was never born we wouldn't have Christmas! If Christ was never born we would still be celebrating Saturnalia on December 25th; the Feast of Sol Invicta, the Unconquered Sun on December 25; Brumalia, Winter Solstice on pre-Julian calendar (December 25); and (of interest to the Scouting community) the associated holiday festival of Dies Juvenalis, Coming of Age for Young Men (mid-December). Legacies of Saturnalia in contemporary holiday celebrations: Religious Rituals -- joining in spiritual community to honor the Divine. Honored Figures -- Santa and Father Time -- Saturn; Holy Mother -- Ops. Sacred Flames -- candles lit and new fires kindled to represent new Solar year. Greens -- Holly given with gifts, homes decorated with wreaths and garlands. Time Off from Work -- government, schools, businesses closed; multiple days off. Peace -- dispensing of punishments suspended and courts closed; wars ceased. Relaxing with Family and Friends -- renewing bonds, sharing celebration. Gift Giving -- dolls to children, candles to friends; fruit symbols representing increase. Feasting -- sharing food with family and friends; on-going eating and drinking. Helping Less Fortunate -- class distinctions suspended; food for all; masters waiting on servants. Exhuberant Play -- masquerades, gaming, gambling, mock king, jokes, partying, letting loose. Paper Hats -- soft hats (pilei) worn at Saturnalia banquets to signify informality. Dancing in the New Solar Year -- music and dancing. http://www.circlesanctuary.org/pholidays/SaturnaliaInfo.html Kudu

Fox News' John Gibson's book The War on Christmas got a very favorable review on the "Colbert Report." To see the video, click on "Xmas" at the following URL: http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/the_colbert_report/videos/most_recent/index.jhtml Ed writes: And if Christ wasn't born we wouldn't have Christmas! I believe you are thinking of the god Saturn, Ed. Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus was born on December 25th? This year, let us all remember the original holy meaning of the holiday, and put "Saturn" back in Saturnalia! Rooster7 writes: What does the "separation of church and state" have to do with a private organization's goals of mentoring young boys? Constitutional arguments aside, Congress established a monopoly on Scouting for a private, self-described "faith-based" "religious organization." Leftists, liberals, and moderate Republicans do not talk about it because they share with neo-conservatives the security that comes from having the government pick the best corporations--they would merely prefer that the monopoly reflect their values :-/ Rather than trying to change the BSA (which only strengthens the BSA's perceived legitimacy), churches that do not share the BSA's "deeply-held" fundamentalist values should turn their backs on mere reformist organizations like "Scouting for All," and instead organize alternative Scouting associations that share the positive Scouting values found in most (if not all) Western democracies but ours. Kudu

Eamonn writes: Clause 9 states that all badges and Insignia shall remain the property of the BSA Beavah, believe it or not, Eamonn and FScouter are correct about the BSA's claim. Mike Walton once wrote a first-hand account of his participation in a raid to seize BSA uniforms, publications, and badges from someone who had used his position in Scouting to commit criminal acts. However, I suspect that such warrants are only issued in situations where the "controlling law" is not likely to be contested by the defendant. clause 12 talks about authorization, saying that the national office shall have the sole right to authorize the use of insignia. I'm sure that alarm bells are ringing in National Headquarters as we speak, but currently there appears to be no rule that prohibits sewing BSA badges on "unauthorized" Troop Uniforms. The best thing to do is get a copy of both the Charter and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America and a copy of the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America (57-491 and 57-492) They used to cost $1.50 each and you can order them from the National Office. I believe that these publications are now restricted, but they sometimes do slip through at local Scout Shops. Has anyone actually ordered a copy in the last few years? That the only Official Uniform is the one you buy from the BSA or from stores that are authorized to sell BSA uniforms Yes, but you only need an Official Uniform for National Jamborees, and probably most local Council JLT courses. and that the BSA owns all the badges and insignia, so as such they can say where they can be worn. Yes, but they don't say, do they? Uniform discussions always revolve around how the official Uniform can be worn. Nobody has ever thought of just skipping the hassle and buying their own generic uniforms from manufacturers. I don't think that anyone will ever come up with the perfect uniform. Breathable nylon works for just about everything but bushwhacking through thorn bushes :-/ What might be fine and dandy in Florida isn't going to be so great in Wyoming. The advantage of Troop Uniforms is that you can adapt them to your local environment. The important thing is to get out and experiment outdoors, where all true Scouting takes place! Kudu

So, if you're going to "make your own Troop uniform" when are you also going to write your own handbook? I already offer a free 2,000 page supplement, just ask FScouter! You're already doing away with part of the program, might as well come up with your own. Speaking of better handbooks, try William Hillcourt's 3rd Edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters. This two volume masterpiece by the man who brought the Patrol Method to the BSA from Denmark is a thousand pages longer than the current Scoutmaster Handbook (even counting all of the current edition's pictures, blank pages and index)! As Hillcourt would point out, if you don't wear the Uniform while camping, it is you who is doing away with a significant part of the program. Very early in his career Hillcourt even admonished James West and West's senior staff for not wearing their Scout Uniforms every day at National Headquarters. One thing is certain, if the corporate BSA executives pulling down six-figure incomes in Irving Texas had to wear the "field uniform" every day, we would have a useable uniform. At any rate, if one of the biggest outdoor youth programs in the world is not interested in marketing outdoor clothing, then indeed you "might as well come up with your own." There aren't any rules against it! a member of the Boy Scouts of America and show it proudly when I don the uniform. The problem with the BSA Uniform is that (in common with a flag) its only use is as a symbol. It is worthless in implementing the Patrol Method as the creator of the Patrol Method intended. The place to show your pride is in the great outdoors, not while your are parlour Scouting. without the Boy Scouts of America, would there be Troop XXX? Well, we are working on an option for Troop XXX, check back with me later in 2006 :-/ Join the program, or don't. That kind of unScout-like taunt just doesn't have the same sting if you can't cite a rule violation, does it? :-/ Kudu

your jeans. My jeans? When my Scouts catch me wearing jeans at the mall, they can't believe their eyes. They point at my jeans and scream "COTTON KILLS!!!! COTTON KILLS!!!!" Your plan sounds as if you want to pick the uniform apart and only use what you like (ie the patches). That about sums it up :-/ The idea of a Troop Uniform is to use the Uniform Method, but not the official Uniform. If there is no regulation that specifically prohibits using the BSA patches on unofficial uniforms, then use them! If they are specifically prohibited, then use BSA metal badges, or import the corresponding badges from a free country. If following the rules leads to a Troop Uniform that Scouts want to wear, and at the same time annoys fundamentalists who cite the rules in their efforts to convince Scouters to force their Scouts into ugly uniforms, then so much the better! The best of all possible worlds! Give them a taste of their own medicine! Simple solution to your camping difficulties and wearing the uniform--- on campouts don't wear the uniform! A perfect example of the bankruptcy of the post-Hillcourt hothouse Uniform policies! Scout Uniforms should be designed for the outdoors. They should scream HIGH ADVENTURE and serve as a recruitment tool to attract boys into Scouting, rather than driving them away. if I'm just wearing a t-shirt, you could almost argue that I'm in uniform at most Boy Scouts events The idea of T-shirt "activity uniforms" is more bankruptcy. At the very least, an outdoor Scout Uniform should indicate a Scout's leadership position, rank, council, unit, and Patrol; thereby reinforcing Leadership Development, Advancement, unit cohesiveness, and the Patrol Method. These things take on a special meaning in the great outdoors, where all real Scouting takes place. Like it has been stated before, you're not going to find a uniform that works for everyone The idea that there is no Uniform that will work in all weather conditions is a myth. Nylon zip-off cargo pants can be used in any extreme condition: from windbreakers over snowsuits in the winter, to bathing suits in the summer. Likewise the higher-end breathable nylon hiking shirts (with mesh venting under the armpits and under a flap between the shoulder blades) can be used as a layer in sub-zero weather (which becomes the outer layer in a winter cabin), and as a hiking shirt while backpacking in the summer. They cost about the same as an official Uniform shirt (presumably less if purchased in the millions of units). An example of a breathable nylon Troop shirt can be found at the following URL (but unfortunately is mostly covered with a backpacking vest). see http://www.inquiry.net/images/DSCN0564.jpg or that everyone would agree on. Those who argue against an outdoor uniform lack vision and don't understand William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's Uniform Method. Kudu

Kudu: No one is stuck with the uniform, and who is this we you are talking about? I would be happy to explain that for you, Dan! "We" would be those of us who understand why our Scouts are stuck with an over-priced, inferior uniform. From the Christmas tree red epaulettes to the blister-causing cotton socks, the hot-house parlour-Scouting BSA Uniform is first and foremost a symbol of dress-designer values. But when worn properly, the BSA Uniform serves as a symbol that all Scouts can understand as to why their freedoms as Americans depend on a free market economy. The BSA Uniform is a life-long lesson as to what happens when a government gets into the business of picking corporations, and granting them a monopoly which shields them from the corrective forces of the marketplace. By the way, when a Scout complains about how ugly the Scouts pants are, the proper reply is "Don't blame me, I'm a libertarian!" Kudu