Kudu

It means that no other society in the Western World considers the BSA's fundamentalist religious policies to be moral and normal. The problem is that activist judges have interpreted the BSA's Congressional Charter as establishing religion with an artificial monopoly on Scouting. Americans should have the freedom to create Scouting associations with Scouting values as they are understood in the rest of the Western World. Kudu

"Show me one society where homosexuality is considered moral and normal." Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that in the Western World ALL societies except the United States forbid discrimination against Gays in Scouting. This includes not only larger mainstream WOSM Scouting organizations such as the UK's Scouts' Association, but smaller conservative Christian Scouting associations like the British Boy Scouts as well. If the reports that Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the United States are true, and if in the future fundamentalist Muslims were to follow the Mormons' example and adopt Scouting as their youth program, then someday in these forums conservatives will be patiently explaining to us why in addition to the prohibition of the 3 Gs, The Guide to Safe Scouting prohibits women from driving, and men without beards are barred from the BSA because they are inappropriate role models :-/ The problem with the BSA is not its fundamentalist "faith-based" policies (if the recent elections are any indication, about half of the voting population is at least comfortable with these red state values). The problem with the BSA is that for too long it has been assumed that the government of "the land of the free" has established religion with an artificial monopoly on Scouting. Freedom for Americans with blue state values may come from the efforts of Gregory Wrenn, who is mounting a significant legal challenge to the BSA's monopoly on Scouting. For details of the case (updated as recently as today, June 27th) see: http://youthscouts.org/news.html Especially: "Youthscout's Motion for Judgment on the Pleadings" For example: http://tinyurl.com/mkw52 Kudu

Why Can't I Own a Canadian? When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them: When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die? I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. http://www.humanistsofutah.org/2002/WhyCantIOwnACanadian_10-02.html

Yeah, what Double Eagle and Trevorum said: take a break for a while. That's what I've been doing recently, only posting once a week or so. One nice thing about stepping back for a while is that when the server that presents the postings in the last 24 hours produces its usual error message, it is easier to just shrug your shoulders and try again the next day. Kudu

Like Anarchist we switched to monthly permission slips when one weekend years ago a 12 year-old Scout forgot to tell his parents that he was going camping. He was an independent kid who paid his own way, and just forgot to tell anyone before he left the house with a pack on his back :-) Our permission slip has a 8 & 1/2" X 4" coupon at the bottom that the Scout returns with his money. The coupon has a space where parents indicate if they are available as Friday and/or Sunday drivers if we need them. After the campout the coupons along with receipts go to the treasurer which makes it easier to keep track of who actually went, and to balance the books. The portion of the permission slip that the parents keep has information about the campout including driving directions, and a "Special Considerations" area that emphasizes any special equipment or anything unusual about the campout. I also include general information about camping for new parents such as the importance of non-cotton clothing, but I'm thinking that maybe this is too much to read through. We try to get the permission slip back on the Monday meeting before the campout, but the only real deadline is 3 PM Friday afternoon when the cooks do the shopping. This kind of deadline means that "fair-weather" Scouts may cancel if the weather looks bad or they decide to do something else that weekend, so the Scouts must plan something exciting every month. We also have one Scout assigned to finding out when all of the competing birthday parties are scheduled (evidently this is a big deal these days), and another Scout who looks for school and professional sports conflicts (we lost a couple of Scouts last campout due to the NFL draft). Our Council issues an automatic tour permit when camping at Council camps. They are mostly interested in driver information for other destinations. The number of Scouts attending can be a "best guess" estimate. Kudu

Fred, The passage that you quote is only an excerpt from the Declaration of Religious Principle (DRP), and in the past was always clearly marked as such. When you join the BSA, however, you must agree to all of its bylaws usually sight unseen. The entire DRP, below, which the bylaws indicate is the definition of "Duty to God" and to which you must agree in order to join the government-established religious Scouting monopoly is clearly a description of the Middle-Eastern "Bible god" named "God." Try substituting "Allah" for "God" (even though in theory it is the same god) and see how many people in your own congregation feel comfortable signing a statement that those who do not recognize Allah as the ruling and leading power in the universe are not the "best kind of citizens." That's why BSA can support religious awards to Hindus, Buddhists and Unitarians, among others. If Buddhists were to explain to their children within the context of their religious award the differences between the BSA's definition of "Duty to God," below, and the idea that it is not essential to being a Buddhist to believe "any concept of a ruling and leading power in the universe," then permission to wear the Buddhist religious award on a BSA Uniform would be yanked as quickly the Unitarians' was when they explained to their children the inconsistencies between their beliefs and those that the BSA mandates. BYLAWS ARTICLE IX, SECTION 1. Declaration of Religious Principle Clause 1. The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law." The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization of the group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. For those who are unfamiliar with what Buddhists "believe," here is the Prajna Paramita or "Heat of Perfect Wisdom," which for some Buddhists is a sort of "Nicene Creed," or concise statement of "belief" (it is really more of a description of unclouded human perception on Earth). See if you find any description of God running the universe, demanding grateful acknowledgment for good karma, and judging people who hold other world-views to be less than the "best" citizens: THE HEART SUTRA The Bodhisattva of Compassion, when he meditated deeply, saw the emptiness of all five skandhas and sundered the bonds that caused him suffering. Here then, form is no other than emptiness, emptiness no other than form. Form is only emptiness, emptiness only form. Feeling, thought and choice, consciousness itself, are the same as this. All things are the primal void, which is not born or destroyed, nor is it stained or pure, nor does it wax or wane. So, in emptiness, no form, no feeling, thought or choice, nor is there consciousness. No eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind. No color, sound, smell, taste, touch or what the mind takes hold of, nor even act of sensing. No ignorance, no end of it, nor all that comes of ignorance, no withering, no death, no end of them. Nor is there pain, or cause of pain, or cease in pain, or noble path to lead from pain, not even wisdom to attain. Attainment too is emptiness! So know that the Bodhisattva, holding to nothing whatever but dwelling in prajna wisdom, is freed from delusive hindrance, rid of the fears bred by it, and reaches clearest Nirvana. All Buddhas of past and present, Buddhas of future time, Using this prajna wisdom Attain full and perfect enlightenment. Hear then the great dharani, the radiant peerless mantra, the prajnaparamita whose words allay all pain, hear and know its truth! Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhi Svaha!

jmenand writes: The rhetorical question at stake: Should I cut off my Scouting nose just to spite my BSA face? We all make compromises with the conservative religions that control Scouting in the United States. We all draw the line in different ways and unless we are religious fundamentalists ourselves, these lines tend to change over the years. I suspect that most non-fundamentalists make a distinction between the passive acceptance and the active enforcement of the BSA's bylaws, including the Declaration of Religious Principle (DRP). For instance would you force a Unitarian Scout to remove his UUA religious medal from his Scout Uniform? Would you report a Scout who had confessed to you in a Scoutmaster Conference that he really no longer believes in God? Baden-Powell himself was forced to make compromises because so many of his Scout Troops were sponsored by churches. In his early writings he suggested that boys could come to know God through Scouting in two ways which are universal to nearly all religions: outwardly by helping other people at all times (which he called "Practical Christianity"); and inwardly through encountering the wilderness (which he called "The Religion of the Backwoods"). Catholic and Anglican leaders threatened to destroy his Scouting Movement in 1921 because this pantheistic approach to spirituality was not based on "revealed wisdom" which is the bread & butter of organized religion. Baden-Powell's views were based loosely on the writings of his famous father who had been charged with heresy before his death, and as a boy B-P had grown up hearing famous religious conservatives declare publicly that God had denied eternal life to his father because of these "pantheistic" writings. Unlike his father, B-P quickly recanted rather than see his movement subjected to similar charges. See: http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm Many people are working behind the scenes to challenge the BSA's legal monopoly and to establish alternatives to the BSA. Individual Scouters who belong to United Church of Christ, Episcopal, Reform Jew, Buddhist, Unitarian, or similar congregations often find that the compromises that they are forced to make in order to join the BSA contradict the beliefs of many members of their congregations. Such Scouters may rethink these compromises when alternatives to the BSA become available and their congregations begin to consider sponsoring a Scouting Troop. Does the BSA's practice of going to court to exclude a six-year-old boy from Scouting because of his father's religious beliefs best summarize your congregation's approach to fostering spiritual growth, or would you as a group consider other perspectives on the treament of children if you had the choice? These questions will come out of the closet when alternatives to the BSA exist and American Scouting is no longer defined by the BSA's Declaration of Religious Principle. Kudu

eagleSM writes: i never intended my post to be quote, "helpful, friendly, kind, and cheerful." OK, so your mean-spirited attempt to discourage other people was intentionally unScout-like. but i did intend it to be "brave". to speak the truth, as i see your comments. "Brave" was not one of Baden-Powell's ten Scout Laws. Maybe he had "eagleSMs" like you in mind :-/ as i recall, the Lord of the Flies movie has half-naked-boys running around the campfire William Golding (the author of "Lord of the Flies") believed that boys are inherently bad. Baden-Powell believed that boys are inherently good. I am in Baden-Powell's camp. "When done right, the Scouts lose their self-consciousness and the ceremony reaches a spontaneous fevered pitch like something out of "Lord of the Flies." i question as to the desire of the Founder that his wish for Scouting was to witness boys in such a state. You would be exactly wrong: "Although the war dance and songs may seem at first sight to be gibberishespecially to those who have never had much to do with boysyet there is a certain value underlying them as a corrective of self-consciousness. "If you want, for instance, to get discipline among your lads it means their constantly bottling up some energy that requires an occasional vent or safety-valve. A war dance supplies such vent, but still in a certain disciplined way. "Also it forms an attraction to wilder spirits who would never join a band of quieter boys. "Mr. Tomlin, "the hooligan tamer", catches and gets his lads in hand entirely by the force of energetic singing and action in chorus." See: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/campfire/songs/war_songs.htm sorry, I accept your apology. hmmm, no apology here, Kudu. Too late. You said you were sorry twice and I have already accepted both of your apologies. No take-backs. Kudu

eagleSM, hmmm, your post was helpful, friendly, kind, and cheerful. or maybe not? Yeah, maybe not. sorry I accept your apology. Kudu

Anne in Mpls writes: As I understand it, the tradition is that only those actually present at the campfire may receive ashes, so I would be loathe to contribute - it just doesn't feel right to me. My guess is that this "tradition" was started by the same person who made up the story about how Baden-Powell would always take a small amount of ashes from a ceremonial campfire and then spread these ashes into the next campfire. This claim has been edited out of some scripts. So the moral of the story is that if believing that Baden-Powell started the tradition (or that the ashes can only be distributed to people that are present), adds to the mystery of the ceremony for you and your Scouts, then fine. But for many of us the most important aspect of the sharing of fellowship is to be found in the magic of the long list campfires itself. Kudu

...a campfire ashes ceremony that I have head which also includes the story that Baden-Powell would always take a small amount of ashes from a ceremonial campfire and then spread these ashes into the next campfire. However, when I talked about the accuracy of this tradition with the Chief Commissioner of the international Baden-Powell Scouting Association (headquartered in England), he said that as far as he knew the story was purely an American invention. Given the information that you mention, above I am interested in seeing the legend that you use, so I can make modifications/improvements in mine. I discourage Scouts and Scouters from ever reading anything from a paper at a ceremony. What we like to do is have everyone march to the campfire in a line, then form a circle around the campfire, all the while singing Baden-Powell's Scout (Zulu) War Song, "Eengonyama." Everyone then uses a stick or Scout Stave to keep time as one or two Scouts within the circle near the fire silently pretend to stalk and do battle with an imaginary wild animal or foe. The first time I did this was when I talked my Beaver Patrol into it at Wood Badge. B-P's detailed description of this War Dance, plus the music notation and a audio file can be found at: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/campfire/songs/war_songs.htm (I would like to add a sound file to the above URL of "The Scout's Rally" and "The Scout's Call" if anyone can read music & record it.) When done right, the Scouts lose their self-consciousness and the ceremony reaches a spontaneous fevered pitch like something out of "Lord of the Flies." At some point before the Scouts have had enough, I take the ashes and explain that the Eengonyama war song was sung on Brownsea Island at the very first Scout campfire at the end of the very first day of the very first Boy Scout campout. I mention some of the dates and places that I find interesting from the list, and then add the ashes to the campfire. Kudu http://kudu.net/outdoor/campfire/helps/index.htm

Last call! There is still time to participate! I am helping in an effort to combine different lines of campfire ashes in an international St. George's Day celebration, April 23, 2006. If you are interested in including your campfire ashes and their history list of campfires, Email us at: Ashes(at)Kudu.Net replace (at) with @ In return we will send you ashes from the St. George's Day campfire and a master list of all of the campfire lineages included in the campfire! Kudu The Kudu Net http://kudu.net/outdoor/campfire/helps/index.htm

"The Legger Snake and the Googly Frog" is a skit for boys from The Birch Bark Roll of the Woodcraft League. This is the Woodcraft Indians handbook by Ernest Seton, from which Baden-Powell copied some of his material for Scouting for Boys. This is not the pun and "put-down" humor that we now associate with Scout skits, but if you have a talented "snake head" and fat boy, it can be very humorous and thought-provoking as well. It may be easier for the two boys to remember their lines if they recite them with a rap beat. See The Inquiry Net: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/native/bbr_plays/legger_snake.htm Some other alternative Native American skits can be found below that, under the heading "Peer- Level Topic Links" Kudu

SueM writes: B & C in #1 are a issue at the moment..boys are either going and eating other patrols food...and sometimes leaving and wandering from site to site at night and there are other issues too that have been ongoing. As far as #2 goes, If I'd let them, it would end up being a one patrol troop When you attended Wood Badge, I'm sure someone told you that when you get back to your Troop, go slow! One step at a time! Since you are asking for subjective advice, I would start with keeping them in their Patrol Sites for cooking and sleeping, and making sure that each Scout is (ideally, of course) in a Patrol with his seven best friends. Hillcourt mapped out several ways of doing that, if you are interested. I wouldn't restrict them to their Patrol sites when nothing is planned that really requires being separated from the rest of the Troop. For Patrol Competition ideas, see The Inquiry Net: http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/competition.htm A good collection of 84 Wide Games are at: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm 42 Night Scouting Games are at: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/night/index.htm It sounds like discipline is a problem. Discipline is not discussed very often outside of Safe Swim Defense, but the Patrol Method does not work without it. Are the other adults on board with the Patrol Method? It sounds basic, but many adults are hostile to the idea, either openly or secretly. ASPL...Guiding the troop in the absence of the SPL {Doesn't say that PL's choose in absence of SPL!] Yeah, my bad! My comments on ASPLs belong in a "What's Wrong with the Eight Methods" discussion. It has been so long since our Troop used ASPLs that I had forgotten that the BSA actually puts a boy-appointed-boy over the Patrol Leaders. It is worth mentioning in passing that much of the post-1972 BSA program is geared toward the Troop Method, so problems with the Patrol Method are in part institutional, and not always the Scouters' fault :-) Prior to 1972, the SPL was appointed by the Patrol Leaders (not by a "Troop election") so he knew his place. The position of ASPL was invented in 1959. It was only used in American super-Troops that exceeded Baden-Powell's recommended size and were too big for one SPL to handle. Since then, the ASPL's position on the Troop flow-chart has changed with almost every edition of the Scoutmaster's Handbook. The idea that every Troop needs an ASPL is really a baby of the 1972 "Leadership Development" Method. It is a "Position of Responsibility" looking for a legitimate function. In a small Troop, if a Scout is responsible, then the Patrol Method is much better served by him serving as a Patrol Leader, or as one of several Troop Quartermasters. On the other hand, if a Scout is not responsible and serves as an ASPL then you have the situation that you have now! A bad ASPL is a waste of time better spent on the SPL and the Patrol Leaders. I think this is very common when no Scout would ever vote the SPL's irresponsible buddy into power :-/ Kudu

1) If the Patrol Method is being used on a campout, the Patrols are a) Physically separated (100 yards); b) Cooking separately in their own Patrol sites with their own equipment; c) Sleeping separately (not mixing at night); d) Making some activity decisions separately. Other than that, if there is no practical reason for them to remain separated (such as an exciting Patrol Contest, Wide Games, etc.), then what is the downside of them working and playing together as a Troop in the meantime? Making Patrols stay in their Patrol sites for no real, practical reason is the equivalent of sending them to their rooms :-) 2) If some Scouts are missing their buddies then maybe it is time to for the Patrols to realign. If Scouts joined (or were assigned to) Patrols while the Troop was still using the "Troop Method" then it previously didn't really matter what Patrol they were in. The PLC should allow them (within reason) to rethink this now that they better understand that Patrols work independently. The best Patrols are natural groupings of friends. 3) I may be missing something here, but why is everyone so upset about where the ASPL hangs out? The USA is the the only country in the world that has ASPLs. As far as I know, the last time the BSA re-purposed the position, it was not to help the SPL run campouts. The Patrol Leaders run the show and the SPL merely helps coordinate the activities on which the Patrol Leaders have voted, and perhaps to remind them what they planned :-) If the Patrol Leaders don't bother planning things, then the SPL gets to lead by default, but the Patrol Leaders can always out-vote the SPL. The idea that the SPL and his assistant run the Troop is called the "Troop Method." In the current BSA model, the ASPL is an appointed position and he has no business what-so-ever supervising elected Patrol Leaders or interfering with them in any way. By the way, if the SPL can't make it to a campout, then the Patrol Leaders should decide who is in charge (or if you are using Baden-Powell's methods, then the SM should decide in consultation with the PLC). The ASPL only supervises the positions appointed by the SPL. About the only important function he has to do with camping is making sure that the Troop Quartermasters do their jobs. Otherwise he should stick to making sure that the Historian hasn't neglected any important epochs, that the Librarian's books are stacked neatly, and that the Troop Bugler's bugle is nicely polished :-/ Kudu

Don't get me wrong I do understand that BSA felt they were being attacked through the peripheral materials and were trying to right what they saw as a wrong. Where would the BSA be if they couldn't label opposition to their polices of discrimination as "an attack"? Especially priceless is the phrase "an attack on Scouting" as if fundamentalist values are Scouting values. Some Unitarian-Universalists are anti-gay, so a non-UUA award for older UUA Scouts who place BSA values above UUA values makes sense, especially in the former slave-states (Some Unitarians --a former Puritan church-- were pro-slavery as well. President Grover Cleveland, who signed the Fugitive Slave Act into law, was a member of my UUA congregation). But the BSA never specified any objectionable material in the UUA's Cub Scout "Love and Help" Religious Award. It discriminates against Unitarian Cub Scouts merely because they are Unitarian-Universalists. Discrimination is bad enough, but to discriminate against the smallest of children (as they did to six-year-old UU Mark Welsh as well) is evil. For Unitarian-Universalists to wear a non-UUA Cub Scout religious award merely because the BSA discriminates against little children for no stated reason is questionable, to say the least. Ron, the "nonsectarian attitude" applies only to members who agree with the BSA that those who do not worship their sky-god are bad citizens. Most Unitarians do not believe in sky-gods, and if the whole disturbing "nonsectarian" passage is always quoted, it should be apparent why the BSA discriminates against the UUA for including in their religious award for older Scouts the specifics of why their religion differs from the BSA's theology: The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary for the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely non-sectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policies that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Kudu

The "Ideals & Service" Method was replaced by "Scouting Ideals" in 1972. According to a recent BSA religious edict, however, "Duty to God" is no longer an ideal, it is an "obligation." Perhaps the next Scoutmaster's Handbook will feature a new Ninth Method called "Obligations." :-) Making these last two methods has led us to book learning leadership... That was especially true for the "Personal Growth" Method introduced in 1972. The Scoutmaster's Handbook included a checklist of behavioral objectives by which you could measure each Scout's Personal Growth toward the Aims of Scouting. See: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/6th.htm I don't see how "Personal Growth" can be considered a Method because there are no unique "Personal Growth" activities. Any real Scouting activity that you do to promote Personal Growth can be categorized under one of the other Methods. Personal Growth is more of an Aim, but we have enough of those already: 1972 was the year in which the third Aim of Scouting was introduced, "Fitness," along with four subcategories--Physical Fitness, Mental Fitness, Moral Fitness, and Emotional Fitness--each with its own set of behavioral objectives! Baden-Powell's model of Scouting has one single Aim, "Citizenship." Under Citizenship, Scouting activities are divided into those which promote character, and those which promote physical fitness. So you could say that this model only has one "Aim" and two "Methods" :-) I would agree that the 1972 "Leadership Development" Method with its "Nine Leadership Skills" was more abstract than Patrol Leader Training, see: http://inquiry.net/leadership/9skills.htm Compare that to Traditional Scouting's Patrol Leader Training, which is all about specific "What do I do on Saturday?" skills rather than abstract leadership theory: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm You will note, however, there every one of the Patrol Leader Training sessions included required Scout reading assignments from the Patrol Leader's Handbook and adult assignments from the Scoutmaster's Handbook. So Traditional training was certainly more "hands on," but it included "book learning" too :-) Note also that the Uniform Method was eliminated in 1972 and demoted to mere "program element" status! See the history of Scouting Methods outline at: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm Kudu

hikeoholic, The best way to recruit sixth-graders is in their school during school hours. As CNYScouter mentions, our in-school presentation can be found at The Inquiry Net: http://www.inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm Our local public school lets us put on a presentation to the sixth grade boys in the auditorium during their gym class periods, which means two presentations to about 40 boys per period. Of the total 80, usually more than 40 sign the "YES! I Want to Go Camping! sign-up sheets that we pass around before the end of the presentation. You must sell the program three times: once to the boys at their school, once to their parents on the phone, and once at the first meeting. At the school only half will sign up. On the phone, only half of the parents will say yes. At the first meeting as few as half may actually show up, sign the application, and pay the registration fee. You can improve this by calling back the parents who said "yes" on the phone, but sometimes these are the most dysfunctional families who create the most problems later on. I usually let the Scouts in the new Patrol decide which of these boys they me to call back. Sometimes 100% of the Scouts who show up to the first meeting will sign up, it is a matter of how well you can influence peer pressure. Parents won't let their sons join if they think it will be too expensive, so this is not the place to show off all of those cool personal equipment toys that you used at the school auditorium presentation :-) The BSA distributes a free recruiting DVD which might help you improve your percentages on the second and third steps, see: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=106122#id_107097 Your will have greater success if you recruit as early in September as possible, before the boys' grades begin to slip :-) Another good time is in May if you sell it as a summer program that won't interfere with school work that summer. Late spring may be too late for them to attend summer camp but our experience is that unlike WEBLOS, almost all of the boys that you recruit from their school will stick with the Troop even if they do not attend summer camp (provided that you run a full Scouting program during the summer). Kudu

John-in-KC writes: Looking at Kudu's list, there is only one skill set of Hillcourt's that needs fundamental change for the 21st Century: Signalling. John, I'm sure a hundred years ago Boy Scout modernists said the same thing about including Indian Sign Language in 20th Century Signalling :-) Traditional signaling takes a boy's natural interest in codes and develops his ability to observe and communicate using only simple tools to engage his hands and his powers of observation. As William Tomkins, author of Universal Indian Sign Language of the Plains Indians of North America wrote, "As Boys are always interested in mystery, secrecy, and all things that are beyond their comprehension. Sign language can be made a vital part of the troop, for building troop spirit and troop interest." See The Inquiry Net: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/native/sign/vitalizing.htm Now, that is way beyond the aims and methods. I've shifted down into techniques and specific tools. Those CAN be modernized, to keep what we do near the state of the art in outdoor practice. The central idea behind Traditional Scouting is to preserve the game of Scouting as it was originally played. The "Aims and Methods" are a useful way of looking at how we practice Scouting, but they are merely a model. The "Methods of Scouting" were invented in 1947 by William Hillcourt, but in 1972 they were neutered to make way for the corporate "modernization" of Scouting. The main idea was to make Scouting techniques "relevant" by moving forward from the forests and streams to a state of the art "urban emphasis." To this end they completely eliminated Hillcourt's first (and most important) Method of Scouting: "The Scout Way: A Game, NOT a Science." For an outline of the history of the ever-changing methods of Scouting, See: http://www.inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm Therefore the post-1972 "Eight Methods" are out of whack and not to be completely trusted by those who follow the Scout Way. Barry writes: I think we simply dont understand how traditional skills turn our sons into ethical decision makers anymore. Concentrating on the primitive keeps Scouts' senses close to the natural environment in which both the human body and human society evolved. Baden-Powell's interest in the wilderness as his training ground for citizenship was twofold: a) Scout Law becomes not an abstract moral code, but a practical list of how to get along with the Scouts in your Patrol when confronted with real forces of nature. If you can't run to the corner store, then being trustworthy and thrifty while cooking keeps the food from being burned and everyone fed and happy. Without the distraction of technology, being friendly, courteous, kind, and cheerful helps everyone get along when you are all wet, cold, and tired. Being helpful with each others tents and gear helps keep each other protected from the elements. b) A Scout's use of his hands and simple tools in the woods can lead to the spiritual insight that B-P called "The Religion of the Backwoods." Anyone who has backpacked alone in the wilderness understands this intuitively. See: http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/b-p/backwoods.htm B-P's "natural religion" was based on The Order of Nature, written by the most progressive eminent cleric in mid-nineteenth century England, his father. See: http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/order_nature/index.htm Kudu

In most of the world, "Traditional Scouting" refers to the Scouting program as designed by Baden-Powell, making changes only for reasons of 1) Health & Safety; 2) Environmental concerns ("Leave No Trace"--LNT), 3) Advances in outdoor clothing and lightweight equipment, and 4) Differences in climates and native cultures. An example of a typical "Americanized" 21st Century program based on Baden-Powell's program as it is now widely used in other countries can be found at The Inquiry Net: http://www.inquiry.net/traditional/handbook/index.htm Most Americans would probably define "Traditional Scouting" as William Hillcourt's BSA program prior to 1972, which is similar in some aspects to the above program. Hillcourt's traditional outdoor skills would remain largely intact if changes were made only due to advances in health & safety and environmental concerns. Claims to the contrary are more a matter of rationalizing the "modernization" of the program to meet corporate market-share needs, than a reasonable risk-assessment or environmental-impact study of "old-school" Scouting skills as they are now practiced in most "Traditional Scouting" associations, such as Baden-Powell Scouts. Some of the Traditional Scouting Skills missing from the core BSA Advancement program are 1) Observation & Deduction: (Kim's Game, Woodcraft Trail Signs, Tracking Skills); 2) Signalling: (Morse code, semaphore, Indian sign language, American Sign Language--ASL); 3) Expeditions: "real-world" tests of Scouting skills free of adult presence: (2nd Class eight mile Journey [the only Expedition remnant in the BSA core program]; 1st Class 24 hour, 15 mile Journey; the Venturer Badge 20 mile Journey required for Bushman's Cord ["Life Scout"]). Resume-Writing: The decline of the Patrol Method in American Scouting is due to in part to the increased emphasis on what looks good on a resume, namely "Leadership Development" and "Eagle Scout". William Hillcourt, the inventor of the BSA's "Methods of Scouting" did not have a "Leadership Development" Method separate from the Patrol Method. In 1972, the introduction of "Leadership Development" required positions of responsibility for advancement beyond First Class and the conversion of Patrol Leader Training ("How to run a Patrol") into Junior Leader Training ("How to be a leader"). This meant that Patrol Leaders were no longer personally trained by the Scoutmaster on how to conduct Patrol Meetings, Patrol Hikes, and Patrol Campouts, where the "old-school" Scoutcraft skills were actually practiced. Rather than holding a Patrol election whenever a single Patrol needed or wanted a new Patrol Leader, the new "Positions of Responsibility" requirements encouraged Troops to hold regular Troop elections (often every six months) so that every Scout can get "his turn" at leadership for advancement. The powers of the Patrol Leader were even further eroded at this time by the introduction of "Troop elections" to elect the Senior Patrol Leader, rather than Hillcourt's suggestion that he be appointed by the Patrol Leaders themselves. As others have noted, perhaps the biggest blow to Traditional Scouting has been the emphasis at summer camp on earning Merit Badges for Eagle Scout. In most camps this means "efficient" dinning halls rather than Patrol Cooking. What passes for the Patrol Method at summer camp now often boils down to the Patrol Leader getting his Patrol out of bed, and marching to the dining hall by Patrols. Is this realistic or I am just dreaming of a Norman Rockwell ideal that is not realistic. Norman Rockwell's ideals only seem unrealistic because we have lost touch with the original vision of Scouting. http://home.pcmagic.net/ogdenj/scout/pages/rockwell.htm#Red%20Cross The most striking aspects of Rockwell's paintings (above) are that they often picture Scouts wearing their Uniforms in the great outdoors, and the Uniform shirts are designed so that the full-sized (32" X 32") Scout Neckerchief is prominent. Except for swimming, is there any photograph or drawing in any BSA Boy Scout Handbook of that era that shows a Scout outdoors without his Uniform? The imposition upon Scouting of an indoor Uniform represents conservative values: The indoor dress designer's Uniform that most Scouts do not want to wear is enforced with rigid commandments ("Obedience" and "Loyalty"), and sometimes by holding other Methods of Scouting (such as Advancement) hostage to the Uniform. A poorly designed indoor Uniform reflects the world-view that people can be coerced into goodness (these conservative ideals represent what Michael Lerner calls "The Right Hand of God"). The Scouts of Norman Rockwell's paintings, proud to wear the best outdoor Uniform of their day, reflect Traditional Scouting's spiritual conviction that Character, Fitness, and Citizenship are best forged by awe & wonder of the great outdoors (Baden-Powell's "Religion of the Backwoods"), as well as the values of generosity, kindness, cheerfulness, and hope (Baden-Powell's "Practical Christianity" and Michael Lerner's "Left Hand of God"). Kudu

Kahuna writes: I would love nothing better than to see the BSA reform itself to come more in line with the "real" scouting program....voting for a third party is throwing away your vote and influence, and I feel somewhat the same about this. Who are you trying to influence? If you are trying to change the BSA, then the best strategy is to set up as many five-Scout BSA Troops as you can! As for voting for a "third party" Scouting association, the very existence of competition in the marketplace, no matter how marginal, will quickly influence BSA policies on issues that are not central to the political interests of the Religious Right. An outdoor Scout Uniform and a retreat from pointless rules for instance. If BSA Troops were truly "boy-led," how many Scouts would stick around if they could wear BDUs and play laser tag (not to mention girls) while still supporting Scouting's original methods and ideals? :-) Most Scouters are content to influence the Scouts in their own Troops. Because of the BSA's policies, Scouters do not find support from their Unitarian-Universalist, Reform Judaism, and some Episcopal & Buddhist congregations to justify establishing a Scouting unit in their own church. They must volunteer elsewhere. If a new alternative Scouting program in such congregations includes a dozen boys (and/or girls) who would not otherwise be Scouts, it will make a difference to them and to that Scouter. The negligible impact on the BSA is not relevant. I just don't see that there are enough people like yourself, who have both the insight into the original program The original program is available through the "Baden-Powell Scouts," it does not need to be individually reconstructed from old books. "Traditional Scouting" was started in 1970 after the UK Scout Association (SA) made the kind of radical "modernization" changes to Baden-Powell's program that the BSA made to William Hillcourt's program in 1972. In the UK Scouters had the freedom to simply break away from the SA and continue to use the program which had remained essentially unchanged throughout the British Empire since Baden-Powell's time. The original program and badges will soon be available in the United States. So many organizations today are having trouble surviving, not because of changing within but because of changing values in the population. Human nature does not change that much. The wilderness adventure that Scouting promises is still a draw, no matter what most people say. When I speak to auditoriums of sixth-grade boys, over half of them always sign the "Yes, I want to go camping!" sign-up sheet despite the fact that Scouting is "uncool." Convincing their parents to allow them to join Scouting is currently the bottle-neck. But despite all of our material goods, career-goal oriented behavior, and 21st century sophistication, humans all have deep spiritual yearnings to which, as Michael Lerner points out, currently only the Religious Right speaks. Scouting may never regain the mass-popularity that it once enjoyed, but the underlying needs that Baden-Powell addressed are timeless and are not unique to conservatives or even religious people. I wonder how a new scouting organization would be able to attract the relatively small amount of financing needed if you remove the professional structure from the equation without professionals to go out and sell it. Scouting programs based on Baden-Powell are all-volunteer and that means less overhead. Of course in most countries if you need information about Scouting, you talk to some volunteer's answering machine rather than a secretary sitting in a local air-conditioned million-dollar building. By definition this means a limited market-share, but nobody's job depends on meeting membership quotas and "modernizing" the program. So if in the entire United States there will only ever be as many Baden-Powell Groups as there are Troops in a typical BSA Council, or even District, so be it if that means we remain true to B-P's vision. Although the BSA, in the beginning was spread by well-intentioned people in the community, I don't see that there is that ethic in society today. Very few community leaders of real vision, I guess. I'm not convinced that human nature is forever changed. If well-intentioned people of the community no longer support the BSA and if this is not a result of obvious issues with the Religious Right, could it be the consequence of the professionalization of Scouting against Baden-Powell's advice? Kudu

Do you know the circumstances of the speech heard? It does seem he is placing God and King over service to others, but I may have the context wrong OGE, I believe the clip is the sound track of a film of his "chat" to Scouts at a Jamboree. In part he says, "My brother Scouts, I want to remind you in a very few words of what your duty is as Scouts (...) First of all, of course you are tested on your honor to do your best to carry out the Scout Promise which is first to work for God and the King. secondly to help other people. thirdly to keep the Scout Law...." Baden-Powell was summarizing his Scout Promise which reads: On my honor I promise that I will do my best: To do my duty to God and the King; To help other people at all times; To obey the Scout Law The term "Service For Others" is one of his four methods of "Boy Training." He places the Scout Promise, which includes both "Duty to God" and "To help other people at all times," under "Service For Others" in the same way that the BSA places their Scout Oath under the "Ideals" Method. In the same clip he tells the Scouts "Don't forget a very important part of your duty is quite a small thing and that is to do a good thing for somebody every day." In his model of Scouting, Good Turns are one of the five Scouting practices by which the first and second point of the Scout Promise are "inculcated": SERVICE FOR OTHERS (Chivalry and Self-Sacrifice the Basis of Religion) Qualities to be developed. Attributes which they include. Scout Law. Scouting practices by which they are inculcated. Reverence Loyalty to God. Respect for others. Duty to neighbor. Scout Promise. Scout Law 3 Personal example. Nature study. Good turns. Missioner's Work. "Scout's Own." Unselfishness Chivalry. Kindliness. Self-sacrifice. Patriotism, Loyalty, Justice. Laws 3,4,5,6. Good turns. Friend to animals. First-Aid. Life-saving. Fair play. Games. Path-finders. Marksmanship. Debating societies. Mock trials. Court of honor. Old Scouts kept in touch with the Scout law and ideals. His chapter on "Service for Others" can be found at The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/traditional/b-p/scoutmastership/service.htm Missioner Service is a Proficiency Badge based on serving invalids, see: http://inquiry.net/traditional/badges/missioner.htm Baden-Powell's version of Laws 3, 4, 5, & 6 cited above, can be found at: http://inquiry.net/ideals/b-p/law.htm Kudu(This message has been edited by Kudu)

Reverence to God ... is the basis of every form of religion. The first sentence of the above quotation is, of course, factually wrong. Had Baden-Powell simply written that "reverence is the basis of every form of religion," he would have been closer to the truth, although for some Buddhists an attachment to reverence itself can also be an obstacle to enlightenment. It is significant that Baden-Powell placed "Duty to God" under "Service to Others," one of his four methods of "Boy Training" ("Character Training; Physical Health and Development; Self-Improvement for Making a Career; and Service for Others [Chivalry and Self-Sacrifice the Basis of Religion].") BSA Scouting is currently based on the so-called "Eight Methods of Scouting." "Duty to God" was long considered one of the "Ideals" of Scouting until a recent BSA religious edict proclaimed that Duty to God is not an ideal, it is an "obligation." However, nowhere in the writings of Baden-Powell does he suggest that we kick a boy out of Scouting if he does not believe in God. A Scout was considered to be on the correct path so long as he at least went through the motions of Service to Others ("Practical Christianity") and the close study of Woodcraft ("The Religion of the Woods"). For Baden-Powell, belief in "God" was the inevitable result of the "Game of Scouting." There was no need for the undertow of religious fundamentalism which imagines that people can be coerced into goodness. This is the significance of the last sentence in SSScout's quote: "But there is no difficulty at all in suggesting the line to take on the human side, since direct duty to one's neighbour is implied in almost every form of belief." What is needed in the United States is a separate Scouting movement that is concerned more with "reverence" and less with the "God" of exclusion. What Baden-Powell suggests as the "line to take on the human side" is what Michael Lerner calls the "Left Hand of God," a spiritual movement based on love & kindness ("Service to Others") and awe & wonder ("The Religion of the Backwoods"). Kudu

Baby Sitters of America...Get real, grow up...just plain stupid! families ...must make minimal commitments! Serving on the committee is pretty minimal. sunset, You will be getting a lot of contradictory advice, don't let it get you down. The Spirit of Scouting, among other things, is being concerned about other people and volunteering to help others without expecting a reward. In some neighborhoods you will be lucky if you ever see some of the Scouts' parents. If you adopt a "no nonsense" approach and insist that parents join the Committee at a minimum, you will deny Scouting to many boys over the years, some of whom will become your strongest leaders as well as future adult citizens in your community shaped in part by your actions. I think you will have better luck if you try to persuade parents who "can't help out" if you ask them in the future for help with some specific small task, something with a definite beginning and end, such as cooking something for a COH, or driving to an occasional campout. This may eventually become easier if their son sticks to it and if it seems to be helping him in some way. The larger the Troop, the more potential adult volunteers you will attract. Don't get overwhelmed. Scouting is a game in which Scouts camp once a month in a Patrol and work on some outdoor skills. If the Scouts are having fun, the rest will take care of itself. Kudu

I agree with MaScout, if you are just starting a Troop in a poor area, the money could be better spent on things much more important than Scout pants (which are over-priced, ill-fitting, and poorly constructed). Sleeping bags, tents, handbooks, rain coats, food money for campouts, boots, a knife. After that maybe find some olive-drab colored pants that can also be used for school, see: http://inquiry.net/uniforms/bdu.htm We are currently earning money for a canoe trip by selling candy bars. They cost us 50 cents in bulk and we sell them for a dollar each. The profit goes into the Scout's individual accounts. There is no BSA rule against fund-raisers for personal equipment. Thrift stores around here charge about $5-7 for used green cargo pants in good condition, that is the profit on ten candy bars. Kudu http://kudu.net/