John-in-KC

Take your Den Chief. He's part of your leadership team. If you do not take him, you need to have a business conversation with your Cubmaster and his Scoutmaster about why you are relieving him of his Position of Responsibility for cause. Is he really that bad?? He's there to help your young people learn. Let him help teach cooking to your young men. Let him help teach tent pitching. Let him help with first aid, or a game. Sheesh.

Fine. I do not want to hear comments about the Taliban's treatment of women in a couple years. Mark my words, the buhrkha will return, along with all the other oppressive treatment.

Official: Obama wants his war options changed http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iqyaFh_efr-brDq0rMLF1hkop0tgD9BTNRHO0 WASHINGTON President Barack Obama does not plan to accept any of the Afghanistan war options presented by his national security team, pushing instead for revisions to clarify how and when U.S. troops would turn over responsibility to the Afghan government, a senior administration official said Wednesday. Looks like the sonofa##### wants to cut and run. Actually, he wants to appease his base. That's my read.

Bread/starch my monkey's uncle. Give them biscuit mix, or even better, the individual ingredients for biscuits. For me.... Meat Veggies: Tomatoes, onions, potatoes, carrots Spices Dry milk Biscuit mix Butter ,,, for oil as well as for food. Jelly Milk and cream

Mike, You need to read the Declaration of Religious Principle again, and decide if the Boy Scouts of America is for you. It's a stated requirement of membership.

AMulls, You can stand by the Boy Scout Handbook or BSA Requirements all you want; at the end of the day they derive their authority as BSA program literature from ACP&P. It's the governing document. Advancement is the Borg; you will be assimilated

Whether you call it Armistice Day, ending the First World War... Or you call it Veteran's Day, and honor those who served who are among us... If you value the freedoms you have as an American, stop for a moment today and thank a Veteran. PS: Considering the treachery at Fort Hood, it's also all good to give a moment of silence for the fallen.

I don't care what WOSM says. It wasn't broke. It should not have been fixed. Period.

Here's some info. You might try calling this WV Council to talk to their people about training... http://www.literati.com/cope/

CRW, "Houston, you have problem..." There are plenty of ways to have made this work, even to the point of taking the kids to the area shelter and letting them help cook, serve, clean up one evening. You know this, of course, since you are a caterer. I think you need to have a quiet, serious, mature talk with Mr SM. Do it offsite, away from the boys. Don't insist on reinstating the decision, but let it be clear that he does not have a veto. If there are constraints beyond the committees' capability to support, you'll provide feedback to him and the SPL.

sherminator, See scoutldr's post. He nailed what I wanted to say. BSA may be a non-profit, but that doesn't mean it can lose money. Losing LDS means losing a big chunk of the BSA revenue stream. You can bank that the National Council professionals and volunteers won't go there. SR540Beaver, LDS was onbard as these matters came into BSA bit by bit. My gut says we pull the plug on the policies, they pull the plug on BSA. Last time I checked in business world, people try very, very hard not to offend, deliberately, their largest customers.

When the U.S. military drops the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy, as it surely will do before Obama's term ends, then won't there be more pressure for Scouts to drop it, too? I'm not a member of an LDS church, but so long as LDS is the 600lb gorilla chartered partner in the room, I don't think it'll go away...

charchar, In your case, start with a conversation between you, your Unit Commissioner, and your Chartered Organization Representative.

You're missing the fact that ACP&P #33088 is the governing document. If someone has an 08 or 09 edition, please check wording below: Step 6: When the completed application is received at the council service center, its contents will be verified and the references contacted. The Scout shall have listed six reference (five if no employer, and parent if no organized relisious association). the council advancement committee or its designee contacts the references on the Eagle Scout Rank Application, either by letter, form or telephone checklist (emphasis added) (The council determines the method or methods to be used.) The candidate should have contacted individuals listed as references before including their names on the application. (emphasis added) If desired by the council, the candidate may be asked to deliver a blank reference form and envelopes to the listed references. The candidates hould not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence between people listed as references and the council service center or advancement committee. If the initial reference ltter or form is not returned to the council in a timely manner, the council advancement committee (emphasis added)must make direct contact with the reference(s) listed on the Eagle Scout Rank Application on its own, by follow-up letter, phone contact, or other methods as it chooses. The candidate shall not be required to make a follow-up contact with the reference or submit other reference names. A Scout cannot have a board of review denied or postponed because the council office or council advancement committee does not receive the reference letter forms he delivered.

It ain't broke, don't fix it! Mark my words: It's going to be PC, G2SS, SSD, SA, LNT, ACP&P, R&R BINGO!!! I've won Scouting's Buzzword Bingo...

kcs, Have an offsite, quiet talk over coffee wih Mr SM. Scoutldr is right, it's a Scout Law issue. There's a difference between not liking the policies and being a horses' ass. These guys have crossed that line.

Two comments.... uzz ... That's where the ongoing mentorship of being a Scoutmaster kicks in. Send him, encourage him, and work his parents. Ed ... The POR wouldn't count in your Troop because you're being an active and caring SM, and if performance was substandard, you'd have been taking action back in months 2 and 3. Good on you.

Actually, I think this is a time where you bring in your "bad cop" ... your unit commissioner and COR, and have a businesslike cup of coffee with Momma. Den Chief is a wonderful job. I was one as a Boy Scout, I loved it. A Den Chief is a salesman ... he helps sell his troop ... he's a leader ... he has the age and hopefully maturity to guide his Cub charges through their tasks ... he helps make Cubbing FUN ... and, he's working alongside (as opposed to FOR) adults several years ahead of the rest. A good Den Chief recruits Cubs to your Troop, and is part of the lifeblood of your Troop. Now, all that said, get out your Scoutmaster Handbook. Go to Scout Source and get the info on Den Chiefs. Momma is just off the reservation in terms of saying you don't have control over PORs. You have control in final approval of a boy to embark on one, especially Den Chief. You have control in accepting the quality of his work. That said, you don't have control over what PORs the National Council considers suitable. There is nothing in Requirements #33215 nor ACP&P #33088 which allows only 1 use of a POR in the upper ranks. Indeed, Den Chief is explicitly accepted for Eagle Requirement 4, for Boy Scouts in Troops or Varsity Teams: While a Life Scout, serve actively for a period of six months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility: Boy Scout troop. Patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, senior patrol leader, troop guide, Order of the Arrow troop representative, (emphasis added) den chief, scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, or instructor. If you let him embark on Den Chief at all 3 ranks, you or your predecessors had a vote/veto. It's neither the Scouts' nor my problem if you didn't exercise it. The Scoutmaster has a charge to mentor and oversee his youth leadership. That's the "removal from POR" clause. If performance was unacceptable, who did/did not pull him out of the POR? Eagledad (Barry) says it so well when he talks about the Scoutmaster being the keeper of the flame. One thing I've noticed is Scouting works really well when we all do our very best to follow the program as designed. There's room for ad-hocracy, but in doing so one has to pick and choose where to use that tool, too.

How big is your Troop? How many older (let's use over 15) youth? What are they doing now? What are your typical camp weekends now? Does the troop fall in on the same tentpeg holes every few months? What are your winter camps like? And ... are you doing what Beavah said in his post: "to be trusted, to be recognized as competent, and to be put in charge. They're lookin' to begin their move to adulthood," (his emphases removed)??? It's easier for us to help you if we know what you're doing now...

Venividi, Good to see you Spot on, Sir

Because it's going to take time for CID and the FBI to make that call. Even then CID may keep that close hold, because this guy is already convicted in the court of public opinion. Those who matter in Army leadership also need to look at how military socialization, especially for a Medical Corps officer, was overcome by other factors.

TCD, Like GWD, you're not at the designated meeting place. "So What, Who Cares!!!???!!!" Your kids are doing something. They're having FUN. They are playing the game with a purpose. That's completely different from shutting the place down for the summer. You're doing good Scouting. moxie, I find it interesting an 11 year old, a 4th or 5th grader, would be on JV basketball. How does the Troop serve the Tenderfeet in this time?

Stosh, Den Chiefs are not dual registered, yet spend a lot of time with a Cub Pack. Your is a fallacious argument. Den Chief is a Warrant Office designed to provide leadership reachback from Boy Scouting to Cub Scouting. A Den Chief is not a registered youth member of a Pack.

Nolesrule is spot on. Brent, I apologize to you. I meant to spin off the the topic from Frank17's post. Sigh, what's done is done.

As far as Summertime meetings go, I am not going to debate the merits of that in this discussion. This isn't that discussion. Why would any Scoutmaster worth his salt allow his PLC to shut the place down for the summer? This is the time of year when kids are available!!