John-in-KC

My thoughts: I agree with others that co-ed Packs and Troops are not the best idea. Keep them gender-specific. That does not mean that the existing Cub and Boy Scouting programs are unsuitable for use by either gender. They are.

E92, When EagleSon and I attended fall fellowships together, he slept in his backpacking tent; I slept in mine. He was a teen at the time; he didn't need to share quarters with me. Now, when I'm paying for a hotel room either in advance or right behind a college trip of his; that's another story.

I'm not EL. Winter Camping is outside Age Appropriate Activities for any Cub Scout... http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/ageguides.pdf That said, nothing I know of anywhere about 40F as a definition of Winter Camping. Even in Southern California, 40F was autumnal to mid-spring... Now, for a lot of families unsused to camping, I might be reticient to schedule a family campout with overnight lows at 40F, because of the families' gear, but there is not a floor prohibition...

SR540Beaver, Beavah, and Lisa said it ahead of me. To me, the questions are how experienced overall your PLC is, and how miserable is the parent likely to make your life? We had a discipline issue a couple years back at Scout Camp. Dad's a union local president; SM is down in the trenches in another union. DAD (and Mom) came with enforcers from SM's union, frankly they didn't play nice. The SPL learned several new combinations of words, being on the receiving end of Dad's invective. Dad also broke every rule in the book about removing his son from camp. You have to think about these things each time they come up: Do you really want your SPL getting foul and coarse language from a parent, and being publicly humiliated to tears? Do you really want to have a visit to the COR, with a parent on a rampage, wanting your head on a platter, because you let the kids handle it? Safety of the youth has to be the watchword, imo...

When you get where you're going, why not contact the local District Executive and see what volunteer support is needed at the District level? There's nothing wrong with being a childless adult in a Troop, but better local folks get to know you Of course, if you happen to be a member of a Chartered Partner of a Troop... that helps too. My thoughts...

So Mr Balzano really was off the reservation. Good to know. I appreciate that SEIU repudiated his actions in this. I'm even happier the young man has moved steps closer to Eagle

Same issue as summer camp staffs... If enough men volunteered, the need for women would be moot. Not enough men volunteer by a long shot for the program and support services of Scouting. Thus, women. Praise God there are women serving Scouting. The other shoe is some units would not exist without them.

Lisa, I agree with you here: In fact it is really unfortunate that he's caught up in this at all. I have to disagree with your statement: I see no one attacking or insulting the scout in any of this. This is from the original post: Nick Balzano, president of the local Service Employees International Union, told Allentown City Council Tuesday that the union is considering filing a grievance against the city for allowing Anderson to clear a 1,000-foot walking and biking path at Kimmets Lock Park. "We'll be looking into the Cub Scout or Boy Scout who did the trails," Balzano told the council Mr Balzano is directly attacking young Mr Anderson's integrity, by my read. Now, that said, this seems to me to be a case of foot-in-mouth disease on Mr Balzano's part. There are ways to make the unions' displeasure known without "We'll be looking into..."

Shoot. July? Have it on Independence Day. Let there be fun, and fireworks, and burgers, and brats, and his commitment to all he is, now and forever. I think his thoughts are grand. Best wishes for his BOR being an evening of laughter and reflection, joy and instrospection. I'm an advocate that he should have great sway in the EBOR site, and some sway in who the EBOR members are, particularly if there are special Scouters and other adults in his life. I know that goes against the latest version of ACP&P, but the EBOR should be his night .

Well said. My parish (LCMS) has the US flag in the nave, on its own right, but not in a position of prominence. The prominent items are the altar and the Cross.

Ask Dad quietly, away from the madding crowd. Until asked, there won't be an answer...

B, You're the one here who has connections into the National office. Whether we like it or not, those words are now in the literature. Why were they put there? Has National been sued over Eagle denied? As for me... Our first charge is to raise up young people. That means if a kid wants work, the SM should find him work. For advancement to Star and Life the program has for 40+ years given the Scoutmaster an option to assign a project Mentorship of a Scout in a position begins the instand the boy expresses interest. In a 4 quadrant leadership model, most Scouts will fall in either Quadrant I (high directive, low supporting ... a true learning phase) or Quadrant II (high directive, high supporting, he's starting to get it ) during their tenure in a job. To me, a Scout needs to understand his job is going to last six months or a year. A Scout needs supervision. Period. That supervision is going to come from peer leaders, from the Scoutmaster/ASMs, and perhaps from the COmmittee folk overseeing the area the Scout works in. That's not only OK, it's essential. The vast majority of Scouts are not 4 months and done to Star, 6 months and done to Life. It's out job during their tenures to watch, to coach, to encourage, to counsel, sometimes to criticize constructively. I think 95% of all youth will do a "good enough" job in their tenure. That means anything from excellent down to acceptable. We really are talking about the kids on the margin, the ones who try to get by. I said this in 07, I say it again now... removing a kid is a last resort. There is a slew of motivational tools to the SM before removing a kid. That said, National has put the tool in the tool chest, and if you're at last resort... either because of downdraft from the helicopter, or because the kid will not cut it (or is aggresively seeking to fail), then don't be afraid to use the tool either.

If Bush's Dad (B41) had been re-elected, there'd have still been a drawdown. ODS merely delayed it. Had Desert Shield not happened, it would have been in motion in early 1991. It would not have been so drastic... see General Powell's book ... but a drawdown would have happened. The issue is we didn't increase the force once we made the decision to engage in Iraq. For that I damn B-43, Cheney, and Rummy.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Nick Balzano, president of the local Service Employees International Union, told Allentown City Council Tuesday that the union is considering filing a grievance against the city for allowing Anderson to clear a 1,000-foot walking and biking path at Kimmets Lock Park. "We'll be looking into the Cub Scout or Boy Scout who did the trails," Balzano told the council. Balzano said Saturday he isn't targeting Boy Scouts. But given the city's decision in July to lay off 39 SEIU members, Balzano said "there's to be no volunteers." No one except union members may pick up a hoe or shovel, plant a flower or clear a walking path. There are far more mature ways to go about this than for the local president to go to the City Council and say "We're going to investigate Kevin." Sweet mercy. The president could have privately gone to the City Manager (I'm making an assumption that this town like many is Council-Manager form of governance) and said "Look, we're not thrilled about this. We're going to grieve." Instead, I'll bet there are a bunch of other union's Dads in Troop 301 who are looking at Mr Balzano as a horse's patooty. I sure am. (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

TCD, You've made a bed for yourself. Now, you're about to sleep in it. I hope you enjoy the thorns, they are there. - The performance wasn't acceptable, yet your SM did not remove the Scout from the POR. What lesson in Character did that send? What about Loyal and Brave? The adults did not have the moral courage to remove the youth. Now, if the SM fails to sign the Eagle app, if the CC fails to sign the Eagle app, you've set him up for an appealable event. Had you opted to follow guidance, you'd not be there. This young man would age out as a Life Scout, not having had the opportunity to enter upon Eagle. As Beavah has noted so often before here, the Method is Advancement, not Earn Eagle. BTW, if his performance was substandard now, what was it as he moved 1C--->S, and S--->L? Problems do "just pop up", but more often there's a behavior that started a couple years ago. I suggest you start having talks with your District Advancement Chair, Unit Commissioner and COR right now, to get ahead of the curve. ~~~~~ Uzz2bnowl, got your PM, will be answering you same...

Abel, Your concerns are valid, but see Lisa's last post. I've been there albeit in a different professional role from Scouting volunteer service ... and had my professional credibility thrown in the trashcan for being there Pick your battles wisely and well. You're not Superman, you cannot fight all the battles simultaneously. Pick the most important issue, and condense your case about it to a page or two. Then it has a chance to get attention from decisionmakers. If I receive your package on my desk right now, I'm going to go "OMG..." for the sheer bulk of it, and I'm going to bury it as a priority C. It'll never see the light of day. Find the Achilles' Heel in this. Prioritize. Attack such that you get traction. Then you can move to the next bite of the elephant.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

If you didn't want him as a Den Chief for Life--->Eagle POR, why did you authorize it? You're the Scoutmaster. You have a vote... especially on the assignment of Den Chiefs to Packs. The program literature makes that very clear. I'm not trying to be BW here, but the program National publishes is designed to make the puzzle fit together. If you choose to change a piece of the puzzle, then you're going to have a rough edge. Rough edges need trimming to make them work. What's your CC and COR telling you? Is it time to fall on your sword at this hill? That'll mean not being SM anymore, most likely. Can you live with that? Right now I see an awful lot of emotional investment in you in not letting this Scout advance. Prior to the start of the boys Eagle project I told his Dad I wanted him to be in a new billet for Eagle POR. The boy was shocked that he would have to wait until elections. Thinking that I may be wrong in all this, I offered him OA rep. 6 months of OA chapter meetings a report of 5 minutes or less each month at a Troop meeting and boom a new POR. Boy refused, he wants it NOW. Why did you not talk with the boy directly at the time he achieved Life, vice waiting until the project, then telling his Dad. Why didn't the SPL talk with the boy about leadership posts; why didn't you have a followup SM conference with the boy at the time? I can't advise you on this one. You have to make the determination yourself. If you deny him your signature, I think you have to expect an appeals process is going to begin. You saw the thread with mdsummer. How much of that are you willing to go through? You said the DAC stormed out of the meeting. What can you anticipate if an appeal reaches his level? Remember, units have no right of appeal, only youth members or their parents/guardians. Lots for you to ponder. If in all this I was to look at anyone's advice hard, it'd be Lisa's.

Sounds to me like the first big issue is quantity and quality of staff. Our Council camps have either over 21 Lodge Directors (area heads) (especially aquatics and shooting sports) or under 21 directors (other areas). All Directors/ADs go to NCS. We hire Counselors (over-18s), usually staffers in their 3d/4th seasons, who are approved to truly sign out MBs, as well as teach, as well as supervise instructors. They examine the kids Instructors are 15-17. They do the work of teaching the MB curriculum. CITs are 14. They serve 1 session and do not have actual teaching responsibilities. Of course, as others have noted, the ability to recruit, qualify, supervise and retain a quality staff is the very core of this issue. Finally, again I counsel: Pick one issue to start eating this elephant. Flooding folks will give a reputation of: 1) Being a whiner, 2) Not being able to prioritize, 3) Being part of the problem, not part of the solution.

"Why not use the Program helps?" Program Helps are part of the package of program available to units from the National Council. the National Program is BSA's side of meeting the Charter Agreement. Boy's Life is integrated into the National Program with materials for the youth. Roundtable is the prepatory program exposure to the leaders, run by the Commissioner's Service in support of direct contact leaders. ntrog8r You're in the same Council as another ghermanno here. He might even be your DAC. You might want to have a friendly cup of coffee with him about RT. He's a good egg, he's been around the block a time or two. In the meantime, These are some great suggestions. A common theme seems to be discussion and interaction among the Scouters. Frankly, I think this might need to be directed or guided to keep conversations on track, relevant, and useful to all present. What do the rest of you think? Should the groups be broken down by experience level, interest, other? Are you a RT Commish? Have you volunteered for Staff? If not, why not? Be an agent of chnage, working within the system, rather than a rabblerouser. The folks who volunteer RT staff are Scouters like you, with families, day jobs, and Scouting responsibilities. Friendly cups of coffee discussing how to better things are welcome, using the hose blast isn't.

Everyone needs to take a step back, go to the campfire, pull out the hip flask, and have one! First, the young man has plenty of time to make eagle. The remaining twenty days to complete his base six months tenure is a pole vaulting over mouse turds issue. Tell the young man you'll be happy to have his rank advancement SM conference after DD MMM 2009. What does the Scoutmaster sign off on? - He signs off on tenure. That's objective. - He signs off on Scout Spirit (living the oath and law in his daily life) - He signs off on certification of the MBs. That's objective. The Scoutmaster, together with the CC, are recommending an EBOR be convened. It's not just a participation; it's very explicitly an approval. If you're not approving this young man's application, you have to tell him why. If it's beyond the basics of objective information, you and he have to determine what needs to be done to bring him to closure. If you deny without making that determination, you give him grounds to appeal that may well take his advancement out of your hands. If he objects, he has the option to appeal, and he may win or lose. What are your specific misgivings, beyond the 20 days? Have you talked with your CC and COR?(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I've written long missives like this more than once in my life, on an array of subjects. Do not be surprised if it doesn't work. It looks like a mammoth elephant, and it's impossible to swallow. Most people do not know the adage "Eat the elephant ... one bite at a time." Better to focus on 1 showstopper issue and highlight it, and have several concrete good ideas to fix it.

Active duty Army end strength, 1988: 785,000 Active duty Army end strength, 2001: 485,000 We went from 16 divisions in the Army in the late 80s 1st Infantry 2d Infantry 3d Infantry 4th Infantry 5th Infantry 6th Infantry (Light) 7th Infantry (Light) 8th Infantry 9th Infantry 10th Mountain (Light) 24th Infantry 25th Infantry (Light) 1st Armored 2d Armored 3d Armored 82d Airborne 101st Airborne (AA) 1st Cavalry to 10 divisions at the end of the drawdown: 1st Infantry 2d Infantry 3d Infantry 4th Infantry 10th Mountain (Light) 25th Infantry (Light) 1st Armored 82d Airborne 101st Airborne (AA) 1st Cavalry This is only the basic maneuver divisions, not corps troops (corps artillery, ACRs, etc). We drew down and seriously. That happened after ODS, basically on WJC's watch. GWB saw US attacked 9-11-01, but did nothing until after the 2006 election to increase the force. I Damn George W Bush and Don Rumsfeld for leaving America at peace, even as the Armed Forces were at war.

Oh, sherminator... You want me to tell you how I really feel? The Armed Forces of the United States have been on a war footing for eight years now. During that time we have ridden the horse (the force) hard, put it away wet without care, and called it out the next morning before it was rested. My Dad served in the Pacific Theater every single day of WWII, from Dec 8, 1941, when the Japs attacked the Philippines, to September 2, 1945, and the general surrender of Japan on USS Missouri. His uniform has 42 months of combat service stripes. I ran into a couple NCOs recently: One had 48 months combat service, the other 54. Bush listened to his political SecDef, who wasn't open and listening to needs for more base forces. Our force didn't even begin to grow until early 2007, and it's still not really where it needs to be to handle operations. The National Guard (ARNG, AFNG) and federal Reserve Components (USAR, USAFR, USNR, USMCR) are being called out on about a 1 year in 3 cycle. They are not a strategic reserve; they are the operational reserve for the armed forces. We the people have not had to pay a direct war tax in any way, shape, or form. Most people I know have seen no impact on their daily lives from the war. Don't start me about proper equipment for the force: I remember Rumsfeld telling the troops **** you (in essence), we go to war with equipment we have. Don, did you ever hear the word called MOBILIZATION? You bring the industrial base of the US to bear and get the troops what they need. In 1940 we were able to expand posts, camps, and stations 30-fold to support force mobilization. We did it in an incredibly short period of time. We're only now truly caught up on protective vehicles for the troops in harms way. I lay that at George W Bush's feet, and Don Rumsfeld better be close at hand. Talking with other friends of mine, you'd be amazed at the vitriol many have for especially Rumsfeld. Thank you for letting me journal, sherminator.

Shoulder epaulets came to military uniforms sometime around WWI to provide a place for smaller size commissioned officer rank, vice a host of rank insignia systems. They also gave a place for the trooper to identify his regiment. There is no need for them in Scouting at all. Period. They are decor, not utility. They should go away. Go back to the campaign hat, or its lineal descendnant, the hot weather field hat (aka boonie hat). Go to single color. It was good enough for Scouting the first 60 years or so. Give the youth lots of bling options. Give us grownups 2 rows of knots (plus 1 if you're an Eagle Scout or Silver Venturer), an OA patch, and the Interpreter strip. I think the materials of the new uniforms are appropriate, but none of us need to be a Movie General ...

I will simply cite the relatively plain language of the DRP: Declaration of Religious Principle, Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, 1, cl. 1 gThe Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, eOn my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.f The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.h Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, 1, cls. 2-4. gThe activities of the members of the Boy Scouts of America shall be carried on under conditions which show respect to the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion, as required by the twelfth point of the Scout Law, reading eReverent. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.fh gIn no case where a unit is connected with a church or other distinctively religious organization shall members of other denominations or faith be required, because of their membership in the unit, to take part in or observe a religious ceremony distinctly unique to that organization or church.h gOnly persons willing to subscribe to these declarations of principles shall be entitled to certificates of leadership in carrying out the Scouting program.h Belief in a Supreme Being is a condition of membership. It doesn't matter what belief system you practice. You must believe. It's that simple. ETA: That system need not be monotheistic. Witness ahofer's and my conversations about Buddhism and Hinduism... (This message has been edited by john-in-kc)