John-in-KC

Dad (WWII era Old Army) taught me to cut the field from the stripes, then lay each on a separate fire. Destroying a Color while it is still intact is akin to protest, he believes! Please, do remember to have a safety man with water for each fire. Nylon and rayon are hydrocarbons, and can burn HOT.

Inspection Worksheets? Check. BSA Uniform Guide? Check. Pen for issuing that WB Course staff demerits for being out of the Official Field Uniform? Check. Yep, I can be as pedantic a member of the BSA Uniform Police as ever anybody was. Question: Is the beret an element of the "de la Renta" uniform as it was deployed to BSA? If so, then the staff is within their rights to wear it. The Campaign Hat, OTOH, continues to be available as an element of the Scouting uniform and is permissible for both Field and Activity Uniforms. I'd better not hear of that WB staff conducting a uniform inspection as part of the course (the way my WB Commish and the SE did at my course). Unless that beret is documented as part of the de la Renta package, it's THE SAME SIN WE'VE all talked about in regard to mixing and matching uniforms. Folks got on me for saying Columbia Philmont Shorts are not part of the Field Uniform, well, turnabout is fair play. DING DONG THE BERET IS DEAD...THE BERET IS DEAD...THE BERET IS DEAD

Oh, where, oh where has Eamonn gone...??? Oh, where, oh where can he be....???

Spending time with one of the PTC Chaplains a few years back, He observed that a Philmont Expedition Crew of 12 is a different beast than a Venturing Crew as a chartered organization. The folks going out on an expedition need to know and respect each other before they take to the trail. Otherwise, there's going to be some rough times on the trail. Sounds to me like it is time for some heart-heart conversation among those who will be sharing the GPS at Double H.

Speaking for ME... First, if the Council issued a Tour Permit for it, and the TP app was honest about what you were going to do, then in your Council all was according to Hoyle! Second, if the young men had chances to warm up, change wet socks, (or soaked clothing), and get warm soups and drinks down their gullets, then they were being well taken care of. They might even be better off under all the supervision you had than had they simply sledded down the hill behind their houses! That the 1:1 ratio of cubs/parents was honored is a good thing ... Overall, I would not call it camping. OTOH, we just had a thread about cabin overnights in the OA thread. I don't call time in a cabin truly camping! YIS

Ma, I'd start with your District Committee Camping "operations committee". I'd also, through the District Committee, check in with the Council Health and Safety Committee. They'll give you good answers. I forget your position in your unit, but having the Unit Commish come and visit a winter camp may help by providing a different set of eyes. I've been in the field, in my day, well into dry-cold environments. I was on active duty in a green (actually tree) suit, though, and my layers included two of wool before we got to battle dress. I was quite comfortable down to 0F (prise God for Graf boots and 2 pair of GI wool socks!). Yes, we've changed, and a lot of wool has been replaced by polypro. Even so, the layers have to be there to trap the air, and cotton needs to be displaced by wool or polypro as much as humanly possible. Good equipment (parental as well as youth training), good technique (a matter of training the Scouts in the course of bringing them the program), and good warm food keeps Scouts happy, healthy and active in any number of winter environments. As Barry says, I love this Scouting stuff!

Ma Scout, First, one disadvantage of chat boards is so much gets lost when we're not talking face to face. So much of our communication includes non-verbal cues Second, when I wrote my last I looked at the direct and the indirect approaches. This time, I decided the direct approach was the path to take. I almost used Eamonn's reference to sod surfing ... where an EXPERIENCED SCOUTER, a District Chairman, tried to get around the rules, because "the end justifies the means" I do not know NDL's outdoor skills. I do not know his personal outfit. He and the families surrounding him may have excellent four season gear. My son and I don't. We're good down to near 0F, with access to some of the Troops gear. Below 0F, we're beyond our equipments capability. A Scout is Trustworthy. A Scout is Obedient. These are basic values of the program. Every Scouter, on his adult leader app, subscribes to the Scout Oath and Law, regardless of program. A Cub Scout follows Akela. That is the first tenet of the Cub Scout Law. What value do we teach the young men and women of Scouting if we ourselves skirt the basics??? I've already stated in this thread: Units need to discuss the meaning of "winter" with their local DE's. Different Council H&S Committees will give different guidance. As a Scout, I camped year-round in California, and we gave out the "ice cube" award if our Troop camped below 32F. There are Troops in the Dakotas and the Northern tier who don't get unit awards for cold weather camping unless the temps get to 0F. Enough said.

Keep the young men doing things, so that their minds do not gather wool!! SMs and CCs: Get IRONCLAD commitments from parents about whether or not they are coming to Visitor's Day/Night. If you know a young is going to be without a parent, do something with him! Been there, done that.

Mr NDL, If something unfortunate happens ... - Your plan places the property owner at risk of a negligence suit. - Your plan places the principal leader at risk of a negligence suit. - Should your "grouping" include divorced partners, your plan places the other parent at risk of a negligence suit. Overall, this is A BAD IDEA ...

Beavah, Let's go back to the source, the Guide to Safe Scouting... http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=ba NOTE: The aquatics chapter of the G2SS was UPDATED 1 April 2006. Per my understanding of BSA policy, the MOST CURRENT guidance is on the online version of the guide. For unit swims in areas where lifeguards are not provided by others, the supervisor should designate two capable swimmers as lifeguards. Bottom line: BSA policy to me now assumes most commercial swimming pools furnish lifeguards. From what I've been told, the G2SS represents the "best due diligience" to reduce BSA exposure to liability. Sadly, we ARE a litigious society. Kahuna for one can tell us more than we ever care to know about that. I've heard of a commercial camp in the Peeple's Republik of Kalifornia which has filled in its pool, because the cost of liability insurance for an aquatics program was too high. Bottom line is and continues to be: This Pack must plan its camp including a proposed aquatics activity per SSD, or the local Council will not issue the Tour Permit. It really is that cut and dried, no matter how much we debate it.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Thanks emb! John

Eamonn, I'm trying to remember my PST, but I thought SS QM was in same class as either RANGER or BSA GOLD ... Can someone check advancement policy book for Venturing? TIA

All, Having looked in the text of the G2SS itself and finding nothing as regards winter camping for Cubs,... But having looked in the age appropriate activities pdf of the Guide and finding Winter camping for Boy Scouts or Venturers... I would contact my serving DE and ask for an interpretation ... given the location of my own local Council. Hopefully, they will talk with the health and safety folks and give you good guidance

Do something local. Buy him a gift certificate to REI or Cabelas or even Scoutstuff. Buy him a dinner for two with his bride. Heck, even just a certificate printed on parchment paper (available from any office supply store), done well, gives its recipient a feeling of appreciation. Finally, get him registered. Unless he's a Web 2 parent moving up, he's got time to do things to earn the knot. Also, go have a quiet talk with the District Training Team. See if they'll flex and how far... Use your imagination

Safe swim defense does not require the adult leader to be a swimmer. It requires him or her to know, understand, accept, and support the proper planning of aquatics events in the BSA program. This is stuff we teach tenderfeet to be 2d class Scouts. We teach the important parts of safety afloat as part of the rank advancement plan to first class. Here's what I taught my son, all those years ago: Qualified supervision: A GROWNUP in charge. Physical Fitness: The Scout(er) is medically cleared for swimming, and the leaders know he has the basic physical strength to attempt the swim test. Safe swim area: It's a pool, or it's been checked before beginning use. For details of what BSA calls a safe swim area, read the G2SS. Lifeguards on duty: ABSOLUTE MINIMUM OF 2. Two is the number from 2-20 swimmers. For every 10 swimmers or ANY FRACTION THEREOF, add a lifeguard (22 in the water means 3 lifeguards, 32 4, and so forth). Lifeguards have the proper equipment (reach, throw, row, go WITH SUPPORT) (poles, heaving lines, buoy belts, and boats) to get to any swimmer in the swim area! Lookout! Someone (may be the adult in charge) whose only job is to keep his eyes constantly moving through the swimming area. He or she must be able to see the entire swim area. If not, you need more lookouts or a smaller swimming area. Ability groups: The rules of the BSA swim test govern the depth of water Scouts may be in. Again, refer to G2SS for specific numbers. All swimmers must attempt the test, and the results determine where they can swim. Buddy system: Never swim alone. Your buddy is always close to hand, enjoying the swim with you. If a buddy pair is mismatched (swimmer with non-swimmer), the more able must defer to the skill of the less able. Finally, discipline: Follow the rules! Yes, if you read the aquatics chapter of the G2SS, you will get 85-90% of the Safe Swim training, but the idea is that the leader (or BSA lifeguard) understand this is SERIOUS BUSINESS, and it's a duty we accept on our honor. Good night It's bedtire here in flyover country.

Actually, it does

The expression common core is a local term. When NLE rolled out, the entire package was NLE, and you had not finished NLE until you had finished PST. So... I started calling the common element (CS, BS (including V), and VEN as New Leader Essentials Common Core. It's the class we support at District RT monthly with space and access to multimedia capabilities (VCR, computer projector, sound). As to Fred's comment, that is the running problem of Scouter training. We received a complaint from an Scouter last year on our RT surveys: Why hadn't we offered xxxxx? He had missed 4 months of the program year. Guess what was offered one of those months? xxxxx. He had ma

First, I'm confuzzled. BASIC training has not been part of the adult leader training program since 2002. Did you mean to say: BSA New Leader Essentials-- - Common Core - Position Specific Training by program (Boy Scout example: Scoutmaster or Troop Committee Challenge) - Outdoor Skills by program (Boy Scout example: Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills) ???? If you do mean this, I believe many parts of the country have excellent supplemental training (Pow-Wow) supporting the Cub program. ONE of District Roundtable's purposes is to provide specialized supplemental training. A bigchallenge is RT is designed to operate using the BSA program theme. From my experience as a district RT staffer, we do not consistently revisit the skills and abilities, and increasingly, updated technologies needed for successful fieldcraft as leaders. (Note, by technology I do not mean eletronic gadgets: Since I was a Scout, we've changed fabrics for clothing, fabrics for tentage, stoves for cooking, and materials for the backpack and frame.) My Council is going to do its first true University of Scouting this fall. Maybe that will answer some of the mail.

It seems to me the ramp to a new merit badge coming from the field involves: - Getting a buy-in from the District and Council Advancement Chairmen/women. - Getting a buy-in from the District and Council Commissioners. - Getting a buy-in from the Council Scout Executive, strong enough that he is willing to support the effort at Region and National! Of course, finding an underwriter for the merit badge pamphlet will not hurt matters either

The hills of Osceola, are calling me today Come back along the Scouting trail, their voices seem to say. I dream of wooded valleys, and pathways that I knew And think oh, Osceola dear, I'm coming back to you. The H Roe Bartle Scout Reservation of the Heart of America Council, St Clair County Missouri, the HOAC home of the Great Tribe of Mic-o-Say High above the broad Kaw valley Stands the cainp we love -- Mid the elm and tall Oak branches, With God's sky above. Here we say that on our honor We will ever be Loyal Scouts, and ever faithful Dear Camp Naish to thee. The Theodore Naish Scout Reservation of the Heart of America Council, BSA, Bonner Springs, KS, home of Tamegonit Lodge 147 WWW. During summer camp we bed down 1800 - 2000 Scouts and leaders every night 1500 at Bartle, 500 each in Camps Lone Star, Sawmill, and Piercing Arrow 300 Boy Scouts or Webelos in Central Camp Naish 240 Bear Cub Scouts (1/1 with parents) in Bear Camp at Naish This summer I will serve on both properties... what a way to spend some serious vacation time

Quality dry-cold or wet-cold equipment is not inexpensive. Boys are entering the stage of growth that will take them to manhood physically. Lots of moderately costly gear (especially personal clothing) will get outgrown and left behind, at a healthy cost to parents. As ScoutNut and Lisa said, cabins are on-limits; camping in the wild is off-limits for Webelos (and younger Cubs). I like Lisa's idea; in fact, I would make sure the parents attend these meetings! 4 season gear needs careful selection; too many parents get a sleeping bag that has a pretty box

Fred, Having heard of folks who break their National Tour Permit and try to drive, with Scouts, a thousand miles in a day... This sort of training does not surprise me. Next question: Will the training audience LISTEN?

Let the fire get to coals... Chicken on the grill ... 20 minutes to a side After both sides are done (cut open one to check, should be white all the way through) Coat with BBQ sauce, grill 5 more minutes each side. Add some corn on the cob (either in the ears or in foil with a bit of water... Biscuits on foil or in the Dutch... and the youth have a meal

Here's my take: A family camp coupled with a swim is an ideal opportunity for a Pack to request assistance from nearby Troops. Safe Swim Defense qualified leaders, BSA Lifegaurd qualified Scouts, Lifesaving Merit Badge holding Scouts ... serving to support the aquatics opportunity of the Pack. Sounds to me like a win-win. Beavah ... first, trying to be write as though you are speaking colloquially gets really old. Please, write in standard English. As to your point ... Safe swim defense and safety afloat are ideally to be presented by a BSA Lifeguard Trainer, but depending local Council practice (my understanding) may be given by a current BSA Lifeguard.

The rules involving open water are significant and substantial. Make sure you note the rules on water turbidity and clarity. Your unit may want to allow extra time for the tour permit to process. A Pack choosing to do aquatics as part of a family camp will get the undivided attention of Council professionals. I would not be surprised if there were not a few phone calls asking for clarification. A SAFE SWIM DEFENSE TRAINED ADULT IS MANDATORY!!! If your council office is anything like mine, they will check for this! John A BSA Lifeguard (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)