John-in-KC

"MB program - lukewarm (almost "Mill" status)" To me, the quality of the staff and the program is the most important thing. Acceptability of food (be it dining hall or unit kitchen) is a second tier. A/C, chairs, showers in the campsites, flushing lollies, that's all eyewash. Now, the quality of pool/waterfront/lakefront, ranges, nature lodge, handicraft lodge, Scoutcraft lodge, trading post, COPE and climbing tower ... those are program facilities and need to be first rate. Remember, the A/C costs $$$, and camp fees pay for it. Maintaining the toilets (vice BSA standard pit units) costs money and camp fees pay for it.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

OK, I'll bite: Is the Ohio River safe for trained youth in canoes? Does a Council or a private outfitter have a base on the Ohio, or one of its major tributaries? Does that help you for an idea?(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Given what you've told us, Scoutmaster should have SM Conference with Scout. Something is driving the boy to distance from the current Troop. SM needs to know that, it's called Feedback and it is a gift. I know I need to give space to my own Eagle son to spread his own wings, and we have a pretty healthy relationship. There may be Dad/son tensions.

In an ideal Troop, The Scoutmaster and the SPL lay the program requirements upon the table for the Committee to support. The Committee budgets the money and sets the per capita amount. The Scribe, under his Warrant from the Scoutmaster and supervision of the SPL, is accountable to collect the money and ensure it gets to the Treasurer. Ideally, the Treasurer attends Troop meetings to receive funds from the Scribe. OK, that's the theory. Now, how is it currently working in your troop? We keep commenting that we cannot help folks if we simply get questions to answer. We can give theory (and in more than a few cases, practice), but we cannot tailor to your circumstances without ... your circumstances!

My opinion only: First, have boy talk with his wee friend! Second, followup with parents, invite to Den or Pack Meeting!

I've spent part of the summer watching my Eagle son as he serves a Camp Staff. An enthusiastic, caring staff can overcome just about everything except bad food. As for food, BSA does have an established ration. It's in the National Camp Standards, from what our Camp's dining hall manager tells me. It seems to me an unsubtle question of "show me the BSA ration, show me our ration plan, and explain to me how they match up?" is an important question ... whether the food is cooked for dining hall service, or given in bulk for unit cooking. At the end of the day: - Quality of staff and program. - Quality and healthfulness of facilities. - Quality of food. ... ... should be 3 high priority factors in guiding the PLC to decisions on where to have LT camps. Two of the above are mentioned in my earlier comment: "Enthusiastic youth staff, knowledgable area heads, a schedule built to keep the youth excited, first rate facilities: " (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Looks like the emergency plans in place worked. Now, what happens when (as appears here) the vast majority of a Crew is evacuated? Does the expedition continue? Does it re-form at a convenient rally point? What about the young man evacuated to Santa Fe? If he's pronounced healthy, does he have the opportunity to re-join? The policy, as we saw with so-ill's posts, is if you're overweight, or cannot make it, you are on your own. What happens in these kinds of cases?

Call for a check of: - Totin' Chips - Whittlin' Chips - Fire'm Chips - SSD Cards - SA Cards - WB Coins The Scouter who doesn't have it buys the first cup of coffee and does Staff KP for that meal. Sing Announcements ...

What's the backstory here? Are we talking about a youth in an intact family, a youth who splits time with parents due to divorce, ... ??? Some of what we have to say will depend on the circumstances. Since there is a relation, I'd recommend the two Scoutmasters go to a local cafe, have a cup of coffee, and figure out what is in the best interests of the young man in question!

Secret DE, Welcome to the campfires. May you get many insights into how we who are volunteers think. Even more for us, may we get feedback (it's a gift!) from you on how the Professional Service thinks!

What Scoutldr said... but at the same time, make sure experienced leaders are willing to "ride along." This Scouting stuff is fun (to paraphrase Barry), but there is a learning curve. Now is the time to ask the area Scoutmasters for Den Chiefs!!! Ideally, you'd like some experienced Den Chiefs together with some younger Scouts. The experienced ones can help train by demonstrating until a Den Chief's course is available, then they can fade away again!

Beyond the policy, it's worth talking with your local Council and Lodge. I've already described the number of Ordeals we run each year. We also, during the summer season, open a provisional campsite for Candidates and Arrowmen wanting to do Ordeal, Brotherhood, or Cheerful Service at Scout Camp. The Reservation Director has a pool of adults he asks to support this campsite. We provide the two-deep leadership for young men. The upsides of this are: - Elangomats, Runners, non-staff C-Teamers, Ordeals going for Brotherhood have a home site where they can drop rucks. - The workday morning, so do Candidates who come in for whatever reason. - The adults providing leadership also assist Ranger with supervising work projects. The LEC and the Staff Adviser simply have a common thought on getting Candidates to the Ordeal: Whatever it takes.

But 4 if you are in Venturing, and the gender mix has to provide 2-deep for both genders...

I absolutely agree on 2 signatures. From experience, we gave the SM a $50 petty cash. He accounted for it. The political BW (going back to Gonzo's post) is scary. Whether Dem or Rep at 1600PA Ave, the IRS is going after non-profits who make political speech. That money needs a very clear audit trail, and the Chartered Partner needs to be satisfied the funds will not get them in hot water with IRS.

I think these are great questions for a youth OATR to be asking the Chapter Chief and the Lodge Vice-Chief for Program!!! In our Council, we have six opportunities each year for Candidates to take the Ordeal, and for Ordeal Members to seal their Membership: MAY: We have two Induction Weekends. Much of the "Cheerful Service" rendered is to get the camp ready to receive paying guests Camp Season: Our OA Reservation has three inductions, one during each camp session. AUGUST: One induction weekend just ahead of Labor Day. It'd be worth seeing what your Lodge does for annual induction program!

Not quite sure why "some" Eagle projects would have their funds fenced and others not. Funds raised by an Eagle Candidate for his leadership project (when funds are given vice access to commercial accounts or materials in kind) need to go the project first. They are more funds of the Scout and his project sponsor than they are even Troop funds. When the project is complete, the Scout, to my way of thinking, has a duty to inform his donors and ask for guidance on funds disposition. The funds may go to the Chartered Partner, or they may go right back to the donor. It's the same concept when the Council Program Director calls me about staff scholarship $$$. I donated them for Reservation N, but he's short at Reservation B. He asks me if I'm willing to underwrite Reservation B, as all who need scholarships at N were covered. Of course I said yes, but the courtesy shows a true stewardship of the entrusted monies. My thoughts.

Gunny, I think we need to look, area by area, at what can count. For instance, with 15 minutes review of correct procedures, I think you and I could both open and control any level of small arms range. Would I want to train an 8-14 year old on basic rifle marksmanship? In my case, I'd have to pick up the books again, study them, and then go to the range and blast a thousand rounds or so, to refamiliarize the integration of the eight steady hold factors I think a Navy SEAL Chief probably could demonstrate proficiency on whitewater smallcraft management with little further checking. The research intensity, though, will militate to a cutoff of options at some point. I am not smart enough to tell you what right looks like, though...

I think we need some clarity: The BSA database of record is called ScoutNet. It's an integrated database that includes membership data, activities participation (at the local Council level), training for Scouters and advancement for youth. There are four interfaces to ScoutNet. - User accounts. These are held by members of the Professional Service and by employees of the Council. - Internet recharter: Temporary user accounts are established by the Council for each unit. These accounts are limited in scope to membership input and reporting for charter management purposes. - Internet advancement: Temporary user accounts are established by the Council for each unit. These accounts are limited in scope to youth advancement input and reporting, and still require hard copy followup. - Stubby Pencil: The Advancement Report, BSA Form 34403B is the feeder report from the unit to the Council. The Council should never see handbooks, blue cards, rank cards, wall charts, etc... They see a consolidated piece of paper covering 1 or more youth. The signature of the Scoutmaster (and 2 BOR signatures in the case of rank advancement) are the certification that the Scouts named "got it done." Local units use either stubby pencil record-keeping or a commercially available database such as Troopmaster . How units construct and maintain their records is an internal issue, but for the sake of the youth, we must keep accurate records. Beyond all this is the reliability of Council's data entry and management. Others as well as I advocate getting a printout at least annually and auditing what Council has with what the unit has! HTH mtm25653

In a way, it goes back to the Merit Badge Counselor system: For years, BSA has relied on folks to identify themselves as experts, and accepted that at face value. The Scouters of our generation are not those of WWII. We are increasingly farther removed from the land. Revisiting "what right looks like" may be a challenge, but it may well need to be done. I think leveraging other folks trainer certifications may be an answer. We do that already in shooting sports: Look at the minimums needed for a Venturer to actually use a pistol: 10 hour NRA course! What I think we are scratching at is developing an ethic of learning, to gain competency and then expertise, to then share with our younger. As others have said, it demands common sense. The other question we have to ask is WHY? The sad answer is simple: America is now inculcated with a lawsuit ethic: Something bad happens, sue. If the leader wasn't an "expert," complain the organization was negligent. It even happens from US Government to BSA (SLC UT area council and the 2002 fire, anyone?). The sad thing is implementation will neither be easy nor cheap. My thoughts, and yes, they are murky right now. No clear vision on this ...

SA, The issue is no records whatsoever Nothing at Council. Nothing maintained in the unit. That's why my advice included one of the standard database packages.

and a Polack to point out that as Council policy, Cub Resident Family Camp does not permit flame based lanterns in the Campsite

A comment: I had 3-4 pair of combat boots at any given moment during my active and reserve service. I kept a pair of jungle boots, because they were comfortable in the summer! I had two pair of "Graf" or Bundeswehr boots, because they were comfortable in winter. I usually had one pair of issue boots for mucking around in the track park. After a major field problem (Graf or NTC), my boots would need some serious rework, but within a week, at least one pair was ready for a "dog and pony show."

Lisa, "Finishing what you started" is a good lesson for parents to impart to their kids. As MOM, you have some control over your son. Whether it's homework, a MB, athletics practice, or ..., he doesn't get something else that's pleasant until the work is done. FWIW, my own Eagle had more than 1 or 2 partials, and he also had MBs he could have easily grabbed had he thought to ask for a blue card. That's ok, though, the ones he has he enjoyed taking, and this fall, he's going to take MB counselor training so he can help the 7th graders in Band who are boy scouts!

Welcome, onehouraweekmy@@@... Like Beavah, I like your handle. I lament you've had to gain so much wisdom (knowledge with tears) so very fast. Let's start with the Eagle Candidate: Since the badges were earned at Scout Camp, the host Council hopefully has the Lodge Books (which are the source file to the MB Card... at least that's how my Council Camp staff does business). Our Council maintains 7 years of back records ... that way an about to be 18 year old can go to source data when he was 11. Now, let's get on with the business at hand: Your former Advancement Chair found a way to subvert the system: They were getting rank patches without the advancement reports getting to the Registrar. Never condone that again. When a Scout earns something, it goes on an Advancement Report. Unit keeps a file copy (soft or hard), person turning the report in gets a STAMPED copy, and Council has their copy. BTW, every time I have an Eagle Candidate, I give the SM a "summary advancement report": I cut an advancement report on the Candidate, with all his key dates on it. If Council turns up something missing from their db, the SM/person dropping off the Eagle app has it ready to go. Get your Advancement Coordinator a software package: I happen to like Troopmaster, but there are others available. For your coordinator, find someone who is detail-oriented, and loves kids enough to transcribe info from Scout books to a database. As an Advancement Coordinator, if a kid earned a MB that week, I cut an advancement report. I didn't save up the data, it was too easy to just cut the report. Emailed it to the guy who went to Scout Office, and voila!, we're done. Learn internet advancement, have your coordinator do the same! Now, for the rest of the kids: Go back to their Scout books, MB cards (blue or award) and MB sashes. Re-do the advancement reports. BTW, just after each court of honor, I cut an individual history on each Scout from Troopmaster. I email a copy to the SM and a copy to the CC. Finally, at recharter each year, I ask Council for a copy of the Scoutnet record on the boys. I audit that against unit records. Knowledge is power... but only when it's shared. Good hunting.

Beavah, Environmental friendliness has become an increasing part of how the military bivouacs in peacetime. We have the same problems the recreational industry does... limited land. As far as who can do what, depends on the skillset. A young Eagle I know was our Lodge Vice chief a few years back. His Dad took my Eagle through Personal Fitness. This young man has done his time in Hell. He enlisted for the 75th Ranger Regiment after 9/11. Got it. Went to Benning, to Jump School, and to the Regiment. Last winter he declined the opportunity to re-enlist. He's working in Colorado now, at one of the Outward-Bound look-alikes. His resume was his DD-214 and his last evaluation from his company commander. I'm not saying every soldier, sailor, Marine or airman can immediately make the transition to outdoor competency. I am saying many Veterans, on the strength of their military fieldcraft, can teach the outdoor skills tasks to standard to kids upon seeing BSA requirements and perhaps looking at an MB manual.