John-in-KC

emb.... You just caused two songs to start running through my head All around the Mulberry Bush... This is the Song that Never Ends...

I don't have it, but I can create something akin to it... Take a rope (It can be a line, a railroad track, a ladder, whatever). Divide equally into 18 segments. One segment per year of life. (Typical child graduates HS and launches to college or workforce at 18). Now... The child sleeps 1/3 of every day, more or less. Overall, that's 6 years of the 18. Coil up that part of the rope. 12 segments left. The child is in school or doing homework for 12 years, 38 weeks a year, 5 days a week, 9 hours a day. (6 hours classroom, 2 hours homework, and 1 hour RT transportation) (Deduct 2 weeks for SY holidays, snow days and teacher inservice). 45 hours a week x 38 weeks a year x 12 years = 20520 hours. A year is 8760 hours. Coil up 2.3 segments of the rope. 9.7 segments left. Let's kick in Kindergarten. 1 year, 38 weeks, 5 days a week, 4 hours a day (3 hours classroom, 1 hour transport). 760 hours; coil up .1 segment of rope. 9.6 segments left. The child has hobbies/sports/music, let's say from age 6 or so up to 18. Across the years, he averages 4 hours a week. 12years x 52 weeks x 4 hours = 2496 hours. Coil up another .3 segments of rope. 9.3 segments remaining. TV or computer time. I think the average is 3 hours a day, daily, across their youth. Take away another .2 segments of the rope. See how this works? Sleep and school alone take 8.4 years of time away from the parent. Yes, development is happening, but we as parents have to husband our opportunities to influence who our child is and how we want him or her to develop.

No, you challenge that PL to: 1) Find a resource within the youth who CAN do the lashings, so the task gets done. 2) Earn his own Pioneering Merit Badge. Explain technical skill proficiency is a part of teaching. This way, he's doesn't have to find a resource any longer. 3) Re-look the requirement. Where does it say "build a tower" for the First Class pioneering? In fact, here is the requirement: 7a. Discuss when you should and should not use lashings. 7b. Demonstrate tying the timber hitch and clove hitch and their use in square, shear, and diagonal lashings by joining two or more poles or staves together. 7c. Use lashing to make a useful camp gadget. http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/firstclass.aspx This isn't about mass policy. This is about 1/1 interactions which you as SM should, nay, must have with your youth. Leverage on the Instructor position. If a young man has the skills to teach First Aid, encourage the SPL to nominate him for an Instructor's Warrant (yes, old term) for First Aid. Ditto map and compass, cookery, pioneering... whatever. It also goes back to encouraging the youth to set qualifications for SPL, ASPL, and even PL. Do it through the PLC, with ratification by the Patrols. Then you have youth buy-in. There is nothing in the literature I know of which discourages setting thresholds for elected office ... as long as the youth set the threshold. Does this make sense?

I actually saw an incident this year. Fortunately, the young lady in question is in her 3d season as a staffer. She went and had a quiet talk with the Director. Director had a quiet talk with the young man in question; then PD had a quiet talk with the young men of the staff. There was an apology, and the problem did not repeat itself.

Good. Then find the boys to work the staffs. One pragmatic reason Camp Directors hire young women is there are not enough qualified young men to fill the requirement. That will probably mean some form of increased compensation. We're already catching the youth who will make altruistic tradeoffs in compensation for service. To fill our staffs, we'll need to re-look the pay scales. That in turn will drive the cost to the camper up. This summer, the roomie of EagleSon's PD came out several weekends as a volunteer. He's out of college and in his day job now, but he had weekends available. He's a NCS trained aquatics director. National Camp Standards (supposedly) require each pool staffer to hold BSA Lifeguard at a minimum. Many of the HS age kids who have BSA LG also have ARC Senior Lifesaving, and are eligible to LG at the town pool. They get far better money to work in town. What this one director said was he got kids who didn't have experience for one season so they had a performance history and a reference. Then they went for the $$$ at the town pool. So... how do we fix a systemic issue where the Camp Directors hire young ladies at least in part because they've hit the point where they no longer have young men applicants, or the ones they have do not pass the hiring interview?

Gern, Any corporation, to include non-profits, has a right and left limit on what they seek to do. GE is one of the last true generalist corporations, doing everything from basic consumer goods to railroad locomotives to TV. There is a way to generate the kind of change you seem to seek for BSA. It's going to involve some very hard work, and it's not going to happen overnight. One Council at a time, the field needs to influence the National Executive Board that the vision of BSA is flawed and needs basic change. Whether that's girls in the younger youth programs, dropping the DRP, or revisiting sexuality, those are things which are Board of Directors level decisions. Vision has to come from someplace. If you think Mr Mazzuca will supply this, great. If not, someone else will have to supply the vision and identify a path to get agents of change in place. Now, who do you believe is the unserved minority? Within the context of the three Aims of Scouting, why do you think we need to serve them?

And on THAT, you, I and Lisa would violently agree. Months ago in your "What would you change?" thread, I fairly fell on my sword for competent trainers ... folks who knew their material, and who knew instructional technique. I still cite a Commissioner College I attended. A Scouter who held her Doctor of Commissioner Service claimed all Venturers inherently require a BSA Class 3 physical annually. This was in class mind you. I also cite the "I just got handed this material, let's muddle through together" which has happened in my Scouting career as a learner. Passing the baloney is a systemic issue, imo and sadly! Voluntary compliance goes so far and no farther. The National Council needs to decide at what point it invests resources in mandatory compliance evaluation of local Councils and volunteer run training operations. Basic? Advanced? Supplemental as in Commish College? I've stated my opinions on this elsewhere, and will not re-engage here. Good Day.

Who are we excluding who is a legally protected group under Federal Law?

Ditro, Welcome to the Forums. Simply put, Venturing is a better older youth program than the upper division of GSUSA. BSA is getting young women who want the values we espouse. Those young women have the skillsets we need in our camp staff programs. When a young woman has the skillset, and a young man doesn't, guess who the Camp Director is going to hire? There is also the small matter that BSA is subject to the United States Code. Discrimination in employment on the basis of gender is illegal. We are, after all, chartered by the United States Congress.

Well, since this has become the Sea Scout thread... Shipmates, stand together Don't give up the ship Fair or stormy weather We won't give up We won't give up the ship Friends and pals forever It's a long, long trip If you have to take a lickin' Carry on and quit your kickin' Don't give up the ship

Excuse me,Gern? I did not understand what you are implying, Sir...

Jet, Have you thought of letting the PLC brainstorm qualifications for SPL and ASPL, then carrying back to the Patrols for ratification? Then, they're the ones making the policy decision, not you. Also, agree with Mr Walston on the limitation of sign-offs. Power down. Let the Patrol Leaders and TGs be the signers. If they goof, you've got a chance for a SM conference and some gentle mentoring about "Why doing it Right is Important?" Let the kids decide what criteria cuts it for cooking. If a kid is working on Cooking MB, requiring him to do a Dutch meal IS ADDING TO HIS REQUIREMENTS. (Requirements 3 and 4 call for a ONE POT DINNER; the Scout gets to make the call on what his pot is, it need not be a Dutch). Right now, the approach you've posited thus far is Adult Run Troop Method.

Indeed I am. She's also a Lutheran, and came to our annual meeting.

Good evening Mr Phelps, Your Mission is to read the context I went back to the beginning of the thread and re-read. Mr Kudu has a near-fetish against the Leadership Development Method currently part of the Boy Scouting program. Mr emb021 used your program as a specific responsory back to Mr kudu as a near-parody of the comments Mr kudu often makes. Though I know Mr emb021 only from here, I suspect he has some small degree of regard for your program Yes, it's a challenge of internet fora where we have only the written word, and not voice tone or facial expression, with which to express ourselves. Sometimes, one has to be a pretty good parser to pick up on what the poster meant to write. HTH.

Mine covered an annual for each person I paid premiums for...

Bin items are materials developed, printed and stocked by the National Council. Local Councils can order them in quantity for distribution as needed. This is one example of a bin item: http://old.scouting.org/commissioners/resources/13-500.pdf In this case it's the "Selecting Cub Scout Leadership" pamphlet at the Commish site. This is another example: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/adults/~/media/legacy/assets/boyscouts/resources/20-121.pdf.ashx This is the BSA "Wilderness Use Policy." This is a third example: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/02-520.pdf This is "Scouting for Lutheran Youth," a marketing tool for folks wanting to influence Lutheran churches to charter Scouting as part of their youth program! FIVE DIGIT numbers, otoh, are items which at least once were supposed to be available for purchase by Supply Corporation: I often cite Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures #33088. It's a "for purchase" item and for many years has been. Another for purchase items is the Boy Scout Handbook. Here's where things are getting muddled these days: Let's take BSA Requirements #33215. It's a print publication you get at your friendly Scout Shop. National, though (FINALLY, HOORAY), placed it online, so you don't need to buy it anymore: http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards.aspx I hope this answered your question ... if not, I'll keep trying. Communication hasn't happened until the message received = the message sent.

On June 24 I said: Who is on drugs at the National Office? I'll amend that now, having been to PTC and having seen the requirement to teach. I firmly believe that "Knowledge is Power ... But only when it's SHARED." I despise folks who play "I've got a Secret," "Stump the Chump," or "Just a Tidbit." Those 3 headgames use knowledge not as a tool, but as a weapon... to insult or to humiliate. The teaching requirement is a supporter/enabler to my belief: Don't go to PTC simply for a vacation (though my week was a huge recharge), go to gain information or skills which can be shared with other adults or with the youth we serve. As others said, folks are being encouraged to share info. Click and GNX, thank you for having shared the content of the memo we all got during our various weeks below the Tooth.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

EagleSon, at his Eagle BOR, shared his MB sash with the board (they were sitting inside the flag mall in camp chairs at Theodore Naish Scout Reservation). He decided to wear his OA sash, as he also decided to wear his Mic-o-Say claws. Both indicated specific ethical values he wants to live by as an adult; he made a concious choice. At his Eagle Court of Honor, he had a choice to wear his sash or his OA sash. Again, he chose his OA sash. His justification: The Arrow signifies the ethic of Cheerful Service. That it fits under the epaulet of the Venturing Uniform (he chose that over his khaki Scout suit) also made it easy to wear. You need a safety pin or Velcro to keep the sash on your shoulder. Isn't the Grand Game about young people making ethical choices?(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

My insurance covers an annual physical. I wish I knew how common that was these days. I take advantage of it

Fred, Understand you are doing what you do very well: Communicate what others have written to a broader audience. In saying the below, I address whatever good idea Professional at National came up with this one: Limiting the name of the youth leader training course to an unpronounceable acronym falls well inside the Forrest Gump boundary of "Stupid is as stupid does."

Shortridge, Much of that refers to the bin items (xx-xxx) which will be shifted from National to local budgets. Marketing and brand identity of BSA has been part of Scouting since I was a youth. I can remember someone pitching the "Sustaining Membership" drives even in 1968, when I was a tenderfoot. At one point my neighbor, a photographer, had a contract to market an above-ground wood stove... the first generation of what we see now as the super heavy duty fire rings. I was the model for that ... even then brand identity mattered. He had to airbrush out my Troop and city strips from the left side views, the Patrol patch from right side views, and the BSA strip and my rank from the frontal views (plus the BSA patch on my overseas cap).

Certainly the Explorer Post I was in 1971 or so to 1974 had many of the same aspects as Venturing Crews now. Of course, folks here might be shocked that we chose blue jeans for our trousers and necktie of choice for our neckties with our dark green shirts.

That's how I interpret Direct Contact, Rick! Another term you'll hear is "Unit Serving": These are Scouters who are registered within a unit , as opposed to District or Commissioner Service.

Venturing to me is the latest incarnation of the older Scout program. So far, it seems to be working pretty well. During my week at PTC, I got to meet a wonderful young lady: Last year she had been the Western Region President of the Venturing Officers Association. She was serving on staff as a backcountry ranger (guide for base camp and 1st couple of trail days). She has her Silver, the Venturing Leadership Award, and is going to make a great mark in this world. I look at the Venturers in my own Crew. Man and woman alike, they're maturing, confident, and capable of many things. Several of them are going off to University this fall; but Scouting is in their hearts and their blood

From the forms themselves: BSA Class 3 Physical: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34412.pdf "All Class 3 activities require a health examination within the past 12 months by a licensed health-care practitioner.* This includes youth and adult members participating in high-adventure activities, athletic competition, and world jamborees. Annually, this form is to be used by adults 40 years of age or older for all activities requiring a physical examination and applies to all Wood Badge participants/staff regardless of age." BSA Class 2 Physical: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34414.pdf'>http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34414.pdf "Class 2 (required once every 36 months for all participants under 40 years of age). Activity: Resident camp or any other activity such as backpacking, tour camping, or recreational sports involving events lasting longer than 72 consecutive hours, with level of activity similar to that at home or school. Medical care is readily available." BSA Class 1 health information: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34414.pdf "Class 1 (update annually for all participants). Activity: Day camp, overnight hike, or other programs not exceeding 72 hours, with level of activity similar to that of home or school. Medical care is readily available. Current personal health and medical summary (history) is attested by parents to be accurate. This form is filled out by all participants and is on file for easy reference." Questions to be asked: - Over 40? Class 3 mandatory annually. - Away from readily available healthcare? Class 3 indicated. - High Adventure activity? Class 3 required. - Philmont backcountry? THEIR OWN CLASS 3 form... in fact it is more restrictive than the standard Class 3. - World Jamboree? There's a specialized Class 3. - Wood Badge Staffer or participant? Class 3 required. From how you describe your coming activity, if I were the SM on the ground, I'd require all to have Class 3.