John-in-KC

Long enough ago that I intend to re-take, so that I'm current on the program. What did Tom Peters say? Train and re-train constantly....???

Back to school night was on the 12th. Actual recruitment is going to be on the 26th (next Tuesday). As a UC, I've encouraged the CC/CM to keep contacts with the parents over the intervening time. Next year, whatever Pack I'm serving (this is not a permanent assignment per my DC), I will encourage them to deliberately plan for recruitment in the first few nights of school, and take adavantage of an area festival to have an event right out of the starting gates. I think that's one of the tricks ... have fun things for the youth to do immediately.

A quick bump on this. I don't know about your Council, mine has now said any Eagle apps not using 58-728A (2008) with project name and hours included, will be rejected out of hand. Heads up, all you Scoutmasters, Life to Eagle Coordinators, and Unit Advancement Coordinators.... check with your own Council.

What Neil said!

Something isn't right in this Pack. If a CM requests Den Chiefs from a Troop on behalf of one or more DLs, the young man who steps up should be assigned forthwith. There is more than a little learning about each other that Den Chief and DL need to do. Summer would have been a great time for them to have taken Den Chief training together. The Den Chief should have been used, even at a Pack level, in support of Day Camp, Webelos Camp, and/or Family Resident Camp. At the Scout Camp EagleSon worked this summer, Den Chiefs got put to helping staff herd the cats in various program activities ... to help build their positions as youth leadership. In return, Den Chiefs were allowed to make a couple of the projects if they chose. If Cubs are the fertile soil from which Boy Scouts grow, Den Chiefs are part of the fertile soil from which Camp Staffers grow!! Now I understand why your young man is a little confused. I'm saddened that time has been lost and can never be recovered.

One of the best Scouters I have ever known is a Grandpa of more than 70 years. His observations about youth are timeless. He still serves a Troop Committee. As for me, I'm now where Eamonn was a year ago... EagleSon has left for college. For me, for now, I've decided on where my Scouting will be... and it will be Scouting, not Kiwanis or Rotary or... Why? Simple. Good people who care about the next generation. Adult association works for grownups too. The youth get to play the Grand Game, but we sure can help them along their trail.

Congratulations on your new assignment. May you, your District Commissioner, and your DE serve well together! Neil and Kahuna both gave great advice. From my observation, you're making sure all the support moving parts move freely, in support of the DE. Look at how well your District is trained. Look at how Activities run (camporees, Klondikes, Pinewood, Scout Shows...). Look at the fundraising (FOS, and especially Community FOS). Look at your chartered partners and your membership levels. Look at Advancement, Cubbing, Boy Scouting, and Venturing. Lot on your plate? Yes, but finding good people, as Neil said, shares the heavy load! Remember Wood Badge? Develop a vision, develop goals. In your case, you need mutual buy-in from your DE and your Commish. Then give them to your operating committees to make happen. I've been told some Councils pay to send their Key 3 to Philmont Training Center for Key 3 week. Whether it pays or you pay, take a hard look at doing it, as a team, next summer. Oh. Attend Roundtable. Know your unit serving Scouters. Listen to them, they're the customer.

I know a Venturer who reached back and was a Den Chief. She did a good job too. Nothing wrong with being First Class to be Den Chief. In fact, if you look at BSA literature, Tigers, being a 1/1 parent/child program, don't have Den Chiefs. That doesn't say it doesn't happen, it says the literature... Den Leader needs to have quiet and mature talk with Den Chief. He needs to understand he's a Boy Scout. If he's not been through Den Chief Training, DL ought to sponsor him, and indeed attend with him if possible. ADVANTAGE: They obtain mutual expectations. CM needs to have quiet talk with SM. If this is the quality of support the Troop is going to give the Pack, guess who's going to steer boys away from the Troop? Heavy handed? Yes. The last time I checked, though, Troops need boys moving up from the Webelo program, unless they have an active new Scout straight out of late elementary or middle school recruitment program.

Well, I'd invite you to the H Roe Bartle Scout Reservation in Osceola, MO, , but it's a bit beyond your 650 miles. There are Troops which literally have 50 years of coming back to camp. As our once Scout Executive, Mayor of Kansas City and founder of humanics, H Roe Bartle is reputed to have said: "Give them great program and they will come." If the kids are having great program, let them go back! That's my thought. Support the places which have great program. If it's trash, punch out!

Have your PLC look at Mataguay in San Diego County. Did that after John Muir Trail in 1971, got Lifesaving MB there. Don't know about it now, but as SPL then, it was fun. That it was a day trip to/from Mt Palomar Observatory was really cool. I was a Whitsett kid in the 60s/70s, and still like what I see there. You might have your PLC look at Camp Fleischmann in the Nevada Area Council (hq Reno, camp vic Mt Lassen)

Yes, I'm in Hand Over All Cash Council. When we got the invite, I called my DE. Was told it was for Eagle Scouts, Scouters or not, over age 25. Youth members were not invited. He was 17 at the time. I took him to District Dinner for his recognition. If it's for youth members, let this be a Wood Badge Moment (feedback is a gift): Someone needs to clearly word the invitation and the promotional materials. They were sufficiently muddy that, as I said, I called Holmes Road. Got an answer of "the event is not for youth Eagles... over age 25 only." Seems to me there's a minor communication challenge.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Gern, Faith IS PART of the product... Look at the oath and law. What are the Bookends? On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God... A Scout is Reverent. Everything else in the middle amplifies on those two. That was told me by a District Commissioner. Faith is an explicit requirement in the Cub Scout Program at Bear, Achievements 1 and 2. In fact, the requirement for Achievement 2 is earn the age appropriate religious emblem. Faith is an explicit requirement in the Venturing Program at Religious Life Bronze and Trust Award. A major muscle group portion of these is to earn the age appropriate religious emblem. In fact, through my faith communities' rep to the National Religious Relationships Committee, some of us Christian folk are going to ask why earning the age-appropriate religious emblem is not an explicit requirement of the S-L-E matrix. Again, I care not if the youth is Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, Islam, ad infinitum, but I care that he is grounded in his faith.

Congratulations on being selected to serve Scouting's youth next season. Take a mind prepared to learn. Clear your decks of other issues

Yes, and that event was closed to youth Eagles. I know, my son got the invite, called Council and was told he could not attend. Around here, the Tribe is a better network than NESA. At least all understand the rules under which who gets what claws and paint.

HFE quited his DE: At last roundtable, my DE (fresh from Nashville) stated that the hope of National was to have everyone in the centennial uniform by February. Cue Cass Elliott!

Thirty years ago, I wore OG-107 cotton sateen fatigues. In garrison, in fall and winter, we wore them with shirts tucked in. In the heat of summer, in the field, we wore them shirttails out. Like Beavah said, use common sense. There will be times where shirt out is right; there will be times where shirt in is right. OR... You can be Parlour Scouts, and insist on a "dressy" uniform 24/7/365 no matter what.

No, LCS, there are two classes of Eagles now: - Those who pay $180 for a special mylar bordered knot. - All the rest. That's my observation of it. Vanity, vanity... the new class is just vanity.

Neil, In reading the thread, I noted Mr Anderson had already written off the issue of active in the Troop. The question I was working to was the qualifying service for the Position of Responsibilitty. As I read that statement (and note it's not in Requirements nor in ACP&P (as I read through it last night)), POR time is on its face evaluated to be satisfactory unless (my emphasis) the SM removes the youth for cause. The SM has until the Scout qualifies in time to make that decision. Like you, I'm not thrilled with that idea. Even so, I think it can be worked through. It's called active mentorship ... by youth leaders (SPL/ASPL), by the ASMs, by Committee folk who have specific responsibilities (equipment coordinator for Quartermaster, keeper of Troopmaster and Treasurer for Scribe), and finally by the SM. These youth are having their first taste of serious responsibility. They're going to be in Quadrants I and II of the leadership grid model. It's our job to provide that mentoring. In the specific case of the young man Mr Anderson writes about, someone has to go back and carefully scrub the books. They need to look for POR time after the Scout earned his Life. If six months creditable time is there, this Troop had better realize they're probably going to lose an appeal, if it goes that far. Of course, if he does not have the qualifying time, he's done. By the way, to NldsScout, thanks Two of the three exceptions I agree with wholeheartedly.

It sounds to me like both COR's (possibly even IH's) and you need to sit down. Christian adults not playing nice is wrong. Some appropriate Scripture verses to set the tone of the meeting are in order. Even in an LCMS parish, my Pastor knows who the RC pastors are and how to do things temporally together. Then, the COR's can go back and give appropriate ownership guidance to their units.

We interrupt this discussion of Sea Scout uniforms with a new and confirmed Urban Legend. Thanks to BigEagle for finding it for us. Thanks to him also for closing his loop with his DE and confirming his Council says this is hokey as well: I was told yesterday by our brother pack's cubmaster that a Webelos den can only go camping with a troop one time and for the express purpose of fulfilling the requirement to participate with a troop. We now return you to the discussion of Sea Scouting uniforms...

Well, I guess your Eagle is better than my son's Eagle, you're paying $180 for a special Eagle knot. He'll have to wait until he's finished paying for his share of his undergraduate education to allocate money to a silver mylar frivolity. I'm exceptionally proud of his achievements so far. A week ago he was awarded a staff scholarship from his Scout Reservation. He passed muster with his bosses, and he worked darn hard all season. He's done things I never was able to do. Even so, your Eagle is better than his Eagle at the knot level, you paid $180 for it. BSA has two clases of Eagle: Have (lifetime) knot, and have not a lifetime knot.

We're using an awful lot of language here. Let's use the language BSA uses in its own literature Here's some specific language on the POR. It is not included in ACP&P #33088, but it gives some guidance. It is on the Guide for MB Counselors portion of the BSA website: http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors/RankAdvanceFAQ.aspx "However, unit leaders must ensure that he is fulfilling the obligations of his assigned leadership position." Then there's the double-edged sword, which I hope few ever have to use: "If he is not, then they should remove the Scout from that position." The onus is on the SM, ASMs and any Committee folk who have folios supporting a POR (equipment coordinator for Quartermaster and so on). They overwatch the SPL and ASPL in their leadership of the Troop. If a Scout is not performing to expectations, to me, mentorship kicks in early on. The object is to help the Scout along, not throw him under the bus. The rub, Mr Anderson, is the question: Does this young man have six months creditable time? If he does, you have a freight train coming your way. It's called Appeal. If the Scout is denied a SM Conference, or if he is denied advancement at his EBOR, one of your fun duties is to inform him (and his parents) of his appeal procedures within BSA. Rest assured your District Advancement Chair will take those duties most seriously. He will investigate, and at that point he is assuredly not a friend of the unit. He's a neutral party. If he deems there to be grounds, he can convene a Conference or a BOR at his level (ditto the Council advancement folk). At any point, if a BOR approves advancement, it's a done deal. ACP&P explicitly denies the unit the right of appeal against a decision. What will happen in your case? Don't know, haven't seen the records, haven't seen the Scouts handbook (a source document). Do what is right. You have to look yourself in the mirror after all this is done and respect the man you see. Doing what is right though does not mean the final outcome will go the way your unit expects it to. Advancement Coordinators should have a good working relationship with their District Advancement Chair. It helps when the times get rough.

Here's my take: The Scoutmaster, the ASMs, and the Committee folk with portfolio have a specified task of mentorship. If the Troop adults do their job, we're talking a very, very few young men who will not complete their time in a POR to the expected standard. In fact, they may well serve in more than one POR along the trail. Here's the rub: If the Scout does not meet the standard, and we don't pull the plug before tenure is complete, we can refuse to sign off on an Eagle SM Conference or Eagle BOR all we want. We're going to get overturned at the very next level up. Is it ethical to refuse the sign-off? Yes. Will it assuage our consciences? Probably. Have we done our share of the lifting in the Scouts' growth and development? Debatable. Each event has to be dealt with on its own merits. Will the Scout still earn Eagle, albeit not at our level? Again, probably. Bottom line: We who are direct contact unit serving Scouters have to do our share of the training and development of the Scout. My two cents. Think I'll go say this again in standerson's original thread.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

It goes back to what ACP&P says, and what the FAQ on the National website says: http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors/RankAdvanceFAQ.aspx "However, unit leaders must ensure that he is fulfilling the obligations of his assigned leadership position." Then there's the double-edged sword, which I hope few ever have to use: "If he is not, then they should remove the Scout from that position." The onus is on the SM, ASMs and any Committee folk who have folios supporting a POR (equipment coordinator for Quartermaster and so on). Make sense? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mr Anderson: It won't for a long time to come. As I believe has been pointed out in other threads here, the definition was changed at National, to reduce exposure to lawsuits over Eagle Appeals. ACP&P (2007) was the implementation. Our control point is the use of the youth member's leadership positions.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

The sun is NOT shining!! The four walls in my office never vary in shading or light levels Of course it doesn't help my office has no windows...