anarchist

Hey out there...can we get a list of ACLU membership and donors from anywhere?...if we all got a list we could send a couple of million letters warning of a product/service boycott of our neighbors and their "businesses supporting" the American Communist Liberals Union (this is what ACLU stands for isn't it?) I would think if these businesses or individuals knew their livelyhoods were in danger of going south they might rethink their charitable giving... It would not do much good, but would be something fun to do when we weren't camping....

Yes you can use the DO just like you use your iron skillet...(you DO have an Iron skillet don't you?) just don't heat the thing for long without something to cook being in it. course the stove has to fit your DO...(Your DO does have legs right?) lid can be used as a griddle over coals by making a 'tripod' out of heavy duty tent pegs (not the whimpy little pins) or three rocks (though they tend to mess with you heating area/ability)...works great on a colman stove...remember to use just enough heat not a nuclear furnace and you will do fine... best cleaning tools are a couple of nylon scrubbies, and Ute tool (back packers wooden spatula) from REI and some hot water... get some good leather gloves (welding gloves are good and cheaper than Lodge DO gloves), a DO tool (lid lifter/bail-hook/ plyers) from BSA supply and a small shovel or long tongs for handling coals and a wisk broom (natural not nylon)for cleaning ash off the top... (and start a sour dough culture tonight for sourdough bread!) gosh I love this scouting stuff! anarchist

Sibs, Ouch, I just got through saying we liked ladies to come on our camps but there... I/WE have to draw the proverbial line...We have one Family camp each year...sibs are welcome as long as they camp with Mom/Dad not the boys...sort of separate camps, side by side... On regular campouts sibs are not permitted...the program is for the Boy Scouts not the cubs or younger. And unfortunately, the sib needs attention the leader should be 'paying' to the boys...its just a fact. Last, a sib on board is not insured by BSA and represents a liability to the troop, troop leaders, CO and BSA.... Just shouldn't be done.

Lets see...how can I tick off the most people...? advocate for the 'twit' a bit? As a troop, we would rather see NSP parents stay home for the first few camps...as mentioned in other posts they can become a crutch for some boys. Last year I observed our New Scout Patrol Shakedown campout, my only job (and one of my favorites)was to cook for the adults- quite unknowingly, one of the newer leaders (ASM) had 'invited' new scout parents to go a long...we had so many decide to come that we had to rent a second group campsite...more distressing, parents immediately began challenging the way the SPL made buddy assignements, work details, even scout skill class rotations... Only an outstandingly adroit move by the Scout Master (our Really Good Guy) in coralling the parents to spend the rest of the day teaching them the patrol method kept the event from turning into a disaster...As it was a few parents never did 'forgive' the troop leaders for not doing it the way they thought it should be done!...And they eventually left the troop 'cause Troop 'way' way was too rigid!' and they should have been listened to more. It was, sadly, quite a thing to watch. So I can understand some of the reasoning... Only wanting trained leaders may be at the root, only I doubt it. About the SUV...many of the campgrounds we use will allow vehicle unloading but then the vehicles must be removed quite a distance (in one case more than a mile)to insure an 'appropriate outdoors experience". AND NO ONE SLEEPS IN A VEHICLE on our camps, its just not done. all this stuff said, I would present myself, if I were a lady (one ugly lady sad to say), along with a signed adult volunteer application to be an ASM or committee member and sign up for the next training class and then ask the whole committee why women were so vehemently discriminated against by the twit (if I was a women, I guess I wouldn't really be a lady). Be prepared for a difficult struggle be patient and polite...but if you boy loves the troop forcing him into another group will be likely to lead to a drop out. And by the way, we LOVE ladies to come along after the first couple of camps...most of us guys get a charge out of demonstrating our kitchen prowess, heck I usually get one or two proposals...particularly when I bring out the cake or cobbler ...though when one of my neighbors told her husband she was gonna have to divorce him 'cause I was a better cook I did feel a need to scope out escape routes...John is one big sucker! I do hope you can weather the storm...who knows, if you approach it in a civil manner you might be able to slowly drag the twit into at least, the 19th century... YIS

ps56k, many out there will understand how it greatly pains me to have to defend the legal beagles at National on anything, but here goes...Particularly with water hazzards...what you did or could do last year or last week does not mean 'dirt' to the 'potentially liable entity' (read-JAMBO or summer camp directors). They need to know NOW that you passed a test to protect them...and between then and now who knows what may have happened to your ability to swim... Case in point, many years ago I lost a lung to the mighty "big C"...Several months later after 'healing' and except for being a might short on 'holding my breath' I hopped into a pool to take a few laps... I had always been a good swimmer even though I did not 'enjoy' it as a recreational activity (But being an avid canoe jocky and fisherman, swimming was something I did more or less regularly...) BUT now, I could not maintain a stroke! I had no timing and while I could still float I could not swim! It took years to get 'up in the water', it was very weird and quite scary (not to mention a tremendous blow to my male ego)...no one could explain what had happened to me (and they still can't, but in the course of six months I had lost a life-long ability to swim. All I am trying to say is, when a boys life (or adults for that matter) is on the line they are better safe ...than all of us being sorry... I know its a pain but its an understandable one from my side of the fence. Your in Scouting

Good Gosh, why not make scouting skills fun not just lessons... knots- how bout a 'guess the knot game' or knot races, (just this week we had timber hitch relay races...tie a timber hitch on a big old log and drag the darn thing across the parking lot to a teammate who ties one on the other end and repeats the drill...sounds like work to me but the kids loved it...some may have even learned to do the hitch under pressure! first aid...competitions on splinting, wrapping bandages...making stretchers, defining symptoms etc. fire building- (out side in a safe place of course) first and fastest, one match, no match, different types...MAKE IT FUN cooking...make something- then eat it! don't talk about it..Have each patrol do a cooking show (and just like on tv they already have a finished product and then go through the motions...takes preparation but gosh its fun...and funny! (outside event- may want to have fire extinguishers handy) camp gadgets-a race- actually have each patrol build one and explain its purpose.... give prize for coolest! (keeps lazy patrols honest). compass- hide prizes out side at night give each patrol course to follow to find its prize...(candy, soda,pizza certificate) tent set up races...blind folded! backpack packing... with 'full' list of gear (the same for each team)-how fast can two scouts pack a pack...so its "high and tight" (packed well -not loose as a goose) we could go on forever...you name it, some one out here can tell you how to make it entertaining! good scouting

Our Pack, years ago started a twice a month 'pack /den' meeting when it became apparent that several Den-Dads were baseball 'fans' and their den programs 'died' for the rest of the year when someone called out "Play Ball". In some cases they ruined there dens chances to finish rank programs (thinking they could finish it in September). We regularly offer meetings to work on nature craft even water safety (without the water) classes. it helps with retention and allows boys who don't do baseball to have an activity with friends during the school break. Talk it up with your Dls and see if you can keep the program going...kite days picnics fishing derby and day camp....keep it rolling!

first back to the original post- it was about phones at summer camp- many (most) summer camps say to scouts "leave phones at home" -so "A scout is obedient" sould apply here. Second on all Treks, the Trek leader is the final arbitter (sp) if he says, "no scout phones" -again "a Scout is obedient" and "Trustworthy". then as to 'confiscate' being theft sorry that is not true nor correct. In that the the SM or ASM is acting within the bounds of "Locus Parentus" sort of 'local parents'; when Mom and Dad are not around its hard to make a case of 'acting mom'(ie scount master) 'stealing' from junior... finally, gosh, most scouts and families read troop poilicies (or should) before signing up. If you do not like the policy you can or should just go elsewhere. To decide that you are going to break or ignor the unit's policy 'cause you don't agree with it... is not trustworthy, loyal, obedient, nor brave. Want junior to call home give him a phone card.

hindrickms24, I think there is some apples and oranges in this crate...BOY SCOUTS AND CUBS ARE TWO different programs.. In Cubs all boys must earn the Bobcat, even a boy entering as a second year Webelos...(it is not a hard patch to earn)... In the Boy Scouts there is no bob cat...and a boy does not even have to have been a cub scout...Cub Scouting is not a requirement. But all boys who join Boy Scouts, start working on tenderfoot regardless of age (11 or 17 they all start as new scouts working on tenderfoot), unlike cubs, where if you join cubs as a fourth grader you are 'in' a webelos den. hope it helps...

KF5WT, you and my eldest son debate in the same fashion quoting text (or mis- quoting)without including discriptive adjectives, adverbs, etc. or context that may undermine your position...specifically the fieldbook page 78... so lets haul that old dawg out and shoot it. There is no list on that page, it is a general section on having a trek Emergency Responce Plan...and (forgive me for the length) it says... "wireless telephones CAN be a convenient means for groups to contact emergency responce personnel, but phones are useless if they malfunction, the batteries are exhausted or distance and terrain prevent clear reception of signals." "Frivolous use of wireless phones can seriously diminish solitude, INDEPENDENCE, and challenge in the outdoors. IF you carry a portable telephone, STOW IT DEEP in your pack and bring it out ONLY for EMERGENCY CALLS." I would point out that the words CAN and IF are not WILL and MUST so much for NATIONAL recommendations...everyboy needs a cell phone like we need boom boxes installed on top of every pack!(hey, someone call Kelty ...I have an idea for them!) Cells phones are like unit first aid kits ...not every boy needs a battlefield surgical unit stowed in his pack. If the unit has a few phones going along, personal phones are just not called for particularly for summer camp. National does NOT say they should carry a phone just that it can be a tool. Rather it recommends not counting on the cell phone for emergencies...and planning accordingly. So rather than making a bunch of phone 'use' rules...leaders can "just say no!" Think I've sent enough rounds down the tube for today.... (This message has been edited by anarchist)

We are a Your Dad is your dad everyone else is Mr. or Mrs. I am rather fond of SIR! YES SIR! however... and then there is my eldest...who takes great pleasure in refering to me with pet names like 'grey old man' or when feeling particularly brave "Pilsbury dough boy" or my favorite "oh grey one who will hurt me"....hopefully it is just a phase....

ho hum.

Boy Scouts can really help at a Webelos summer camp experience... True story...Two Boy Scouts went along with Den Of Webelos to summercamp a couple of years ago...They were Den Chiefs (and sons of one of the Den Leaders. A Den Leader had major Heart Attack! Air Lifted out! Those Boys scouts helped the remaining Den Leader keep Webelos calm and allowed them to continued on, so the Webelos did not 'loose summer camp experence...EVEN WHILE THEIR FATHER WAS BEING FLOWN TO A HOSPITAL! Brave Lads, Good Scouts, OUTSTANDING EXAMPLES!

You are gonna LOVE IT! Conditioning conditioning conditioning if you are on a philmont hike trek...you need to be in shape. You need to have your boots 'broken in' (or is that 'walked in'?) If you need new gear- get it now, so your crew has time to break it all in...no surprises. June gives you a chance for four to six conditioning weekends without giving your life over to the trek. The Crew needs that time to come together. Depending on the crews' current physical status (are all athletic, in shape or not?) you can perhaps reduce the number of weekends but one can never be in too good of shape for hiking...most should commit to hiking a couple of times a month on their own. Do hills! Lots of hills...tall hills if you can find them!.... and have fun...that's what it is all about... And now the good part...tell the boys about the stories you keep hearing about scouts and scouters not getting out of base camp 'cause they were out of shape or had altitude sickness. Set your own conditioning schedule and tell the guys you intend to be able to lend them all a hand when they need a bit of help...and watch most of them train 25% harder!

OOOHHH MMMYYYY GAUWDDDD! I think I belong to an Eagle Mill! I've been thinking on this...in the last twelve months we have passed four Eagles...and We have one boy writing his Eagle Project Proposal, One boy in the middle of an Eagle Project and a third in the final stages of his Eagle Project Write up/Report...we must be an Eagle Mill!! ohmygawdohmygawdohmygawd!...oh wait, most of these boys turned 18 within two-four months of Eagling...only two are under 17...maybe we just kept them in the program long enough that they couldn't avoid being Eagles...guess that sounds a little better... whew scared myself there for a minute ... I think I need a drink....

t487scouter, Troop attendance 'requirements' are for the most part units ways of asking for committment from the boys. Many in the forum frown on attendance regs and it is not BSA policy...Some units go a little overboard in the % department, most try to find a middle ground (say, half of the monthly meeting and half of the outdoor activities)and almost no units take the 'sports team' approach and require 100% attendance. Many do feel that for unit and patrol cohesion 'regular' attendance is an important part of scouting spirit. Our Troop prides itself on retaining a good number of High school aged students and student athletes by accommodating our meeting schedule and annual activities calendar to the High School events calendar. We encourage the athletes to come to meetings after practice...even if late, and in sweat suits. Our meeting night was changed to Monday night, years ago, to accommodate most of the after-school clubs and sports (in our area Monday seems to be a 'low drag' day for after-school stuff. First Class First Year should be looked at as a goal not a requirement...BSA says their research shows that retention is better after a boy earns his 1st Class...so they think if you make everyone a first class quick everyone will stay...(anyone see problems with the theory??) While, I personally feel their research and theory is bogus or at least simple minded...I do see value in steady advancement progress... I used to be one of the... "heck, as long as a boy is having fun why care if he just wants to go camping with us and doesn't want to do the 'book work'", kind of guys. However, over the last seven years I have seen a good number of boys never advance past second class. Boys who loved the games and camping but when they hit 14,15,16 yrs dropped out. Being a 'camper' myself and a committee member rather than an ASM, I usually have a good 'pressure-less' relationship with the drop-outs. Some what hauntingly, most boys will somewhere in my 'exit discussions' with them, let it out that all their friends are Star or Life and they feel _ _ _ _ _ {fill in the blank}. As a committee guy rather than program guy, I always try to speak with the parents and the boys about the decission to drop so I can tell our committee if a problem exists. Sort of like a rank BoR. I do not think my 'research' is any more valid than BSA but I do think that somewhere in the middle there is an answer. We need to 'ride herd' a little better and assist in keeping more boys on the road to advancement rather than leaving them behind...in the name of letting them have fun...I will not loose a bit of sleep if a boy "ages out" with out being Eagle...the fact that he stayed with us is more than enough for me...but loosing a boy who seemed to be having fun because he felt bad about not keeping up (being able to?),darn near kills me. HAVE your boys set goals, ASK THEM, do you want to become first class?" they will all say yes!...Put up advancement charts, encourage (even badger a bit) towards earning rank and make sure someone (not you hopefully)is regularly looking at where each boy is (or is not) in his advancement trail. Remember if we do loose them, your hope of the boys becoming well rounded great young men is no longer even a little bit, in your hands...if we can figure out how to hold on to them we can continue to mentor. Finally, this does not mean your weekly meetings are all or even mostly advancement sign off classes. They should be preparatory (planning training) for your up coming outdoor activities. If you can work some scout skills classes in great! But not so many classes that you feel you are running an "Eagle or merit badge mill". good scouting(This message has been edited by anarchist)

Well for about $49.50 each, we can do lobster stuffed with crab meat, rib steak or filet minion rapped in bacon plus a couple of other nice meals... don't know about your areas relative food costs but living a hop skip and a traffic jam south of the Nations Capital we find $10.00 a little 'light' for grub. For the boys we TELL THE PARENTS that they should expect to hear numbers like $12-$15.00 per weekend (friday snack/cracker barrel through Sunday breakfast). Parents are continually told this, so if little 'jesse james' starts saying he needs $20.00 for the campout, questions can be asked. The boys make up their menus and shopping lists and the grubmaster plus two boys (or more) do the shopping (whole patrols shop most times for the NSPs as a learning exercise). Excess funds are returned pro rata. Two cautions here if a boy signs up and pays and then does not show on the campout, the patrol does not return his money...food was purchased... If a boy does not bring his grub money the meeting before the camp he must show up at the store with his contribution or food is not purchased for him... As a troop we encourage good cooking adventures at most camps...camporees some times warrant more 'quick and easys' for breakfasts and lunches but we frown on 'crummy' meals at supper. If I were to guess, most of the patrols routinely hit $13.00 and the adult kitchen generally runs $15.00...but boy do the adults eat well! Generally, we have the boys bring in $15.00 the week of the campout unless it clear that the meals are 'cheap'. We also try to make sure that there are a few dollars available for the grub master to buy ice Friday afternoon (so his parents don't have to 'subsidize' the patrol) bon appetite(This message has been edited by anarchist)

ear ring??? over and ear ring?? heck our new CC had an ear ring when my son joined the troop. The personal adornment of a boy is the business of his parents not the troop. As long as the boy is clean and well kempt...not our business on the boards... The reviewer was wrong! He should be told so and asked to appologize...the family should be asked to give the troop another chance. that said, when my older son came to me about getting a stud in the ear...I explained that unless he was willing to allow me to pierce another part of his anatomy with a ten penny nail first he would have to wait til he was over 18... he is waiting...guess I am old fashioned, huh?

I HATE FUND RAISING! aahhh, good to get that one off my chest. Did my share of carrying a card board suit case when I was a Scout! First, to EagleInKy's comment- 'wish more parents felt that way" about selling and boys making their own money... lets see here...Older son (senior in High school)- First week of school- sell wrapping paper for PTO, Then sell candy for the sports club, then sell phone cards for the boosters, then sell discount cards for the 'raslin' team, then pizzas for the cross county team, and oh yes, pop corn and candy for the church youth and sodas and Pop Corn for the troop and the tickets for our spaggetti dinner, now I am waiting to see what the soccer coach wants to market...then there is son number two...should I go on?...IT DOES GET OLD, DON'T YOU THINK? Now to the question: Our troop has a couple of Troop funding exercises each year for troop operational funding (awards, equipment, propane etc.) for which we encourage "all" to help out (never is "all" though). Funds from the 'Troop' events are 100% troop money. We then offer parents the chance to run fund raisers for the boys wanting to participate for scout accounts. 100% of those profits are divided either in 'shares' to the boys for manning a booth (popcorn and drinks at a parade) or 100% of individual profits from direct sales, wreaths, light bulbs, candy bars etc. (sell 100 wreaths make good money, sell five and you can pay mom for gas...we live in a mostly rural area) Scout account money can be used for gear, camp grub, camping, summer camp almost anything that can be argued is a primary 'scouting purpose' purchase...book keeping is a pain, and generally a receipt for gear purchases has to be turned in for reimbursement. CNYScouter I do not agree with "part any fund raiser" being allocated to the boys for every sales activity if it impacts troop operations...unless you can fund the troop a different way...dues perhaps? On the other hand I hate when the same families year after year dodge the selling/fund raising efforts...just seems they always have a schedule conflict! They used to be called Freeloaders! Not sure if scoutmaster or troop committee should be deciding on subsidies? In our troop we do not subsidize activities...the boys pay as they go...food and activities expenses.

Gosh, I guess it was good that the web posting was screwed up for a bit...cause I was gonna 'post' you one for banging on my friends! Yes, sometimes we all forget ourselves in the 'heat of battle'...and one of the short comings of internet posting vs. face to face is; when face to face debate takes place, if/when you 'step on toes' you can see visible signals and rapidly 'better' explain your position (hopefully letting the other 'side' know that its not being said as a personal attack). In the world of the net that realization of 'injury' is usually much farther along in the discussion and the 'perceived damage to someones honor' thusly greater and more personal. Another short coming is more personal...when you post you must be able to 'handle' advise and comments that you may not want to hear... Like in your original post...I might point out that even thought you said you were the 'SM and the committee'...I would reply...'can't be... The BSA organizational book says so'...nothing personal, but not what you want to hear, I'll bet...Your CO is letting you down (?) who is the CO? In any case you are operating outside of BSA regs...Passionate or not about Scouting you are breaking the rules...I say this not to make you mad...though it may do that but to spur you on to solve the proble quickly...so is that wrong? That said...and Scouting Ideals aside...we sorta need to keep in mind the old school yard chant...'sticks and stones'...words only hurt if we let them, if we are so insecure in our sense of self that we let others comments on our ideas bother or hurt...but then what do I know...maybe I'm just one of those fools jd talks about.

TROOP GUIDES not patrol guides. They are part of the leadership Green Bars ...answering to the ASPL (in our troop) and assisting the ASM's overseeing the NSP's. For one year these boys are with the NSP's for everything. They act as defacto Patrol leaders for a few weeks then they switch to mentors as the NSP figures out who will be patrol leader and APLs. We use the two guides per patrol system to help avoid no shows at meetings and campouts. This can be very hard on the troop as a whole if you have large groups of new scouts. Three New Scout patrols require the selection of six of your strongest scouts...virtually wiping out a patrol...or taking the 'top' off of three patrols... we are looking at (tweaking the system) this coming year only having one Troop Guide per NSP but having the ASPL in charge of the Troop Guides act as a 'floater' and then selecting one other floater...maybe a partime 'guide in training type position'...still thinking on this one... Keep in mind that no matter what you say about the boy being in his patrol..for a year he is in the NSP hip pocket at everything and 'lost' to his patrol... HIS JOB IS MENTORING THE NSP and making every effort to see that their first year in Boy Scouts is successful...quite a bit to put on a kid! So chose well, it takes a special boy! (boys)

kenk, run don't walk to the nearest thrift store...nearly always find a few BSA shirts (cheap) (unless you have an old shirt ready for the rag bag at home already) measure and cut a 'field' out of the salvaged shirt to include the left side of the shirt. sew all awards, rank diamonds, AoL, arrow points (badges) on (nicely), stretch and back (foam-core is great) then frame and present to your son when he crosses next year (or sooner) makes a great wall hanger!

Lets see...trustworthy,nope,... loyal, nope,...thrifty?...nope, chips, are not money...don't see a "no card playing with chips" in the Law or the Oath...less your CO has a problem...(knew a church troop that banned cards)...I don't see the harm...so long as the boys are doing it 'after' program activities rather than 'instead of'...program... If some of the boys are too immature to handle lossing even when nothing of value is lost you might have problems...(had a nephew who couldn't handle "not winning"... for its own sake) but I would think that is/or would be a statistical 'blip'... Gamblers annonymous will 'probly' jump in here with both feet, however.

Eamonn, some times I miss the good old days when we could take a chronic 'twit' out behind the barn and beat some sense into him...(JUST JOKING HERE!) Unfortunately, the only beating we can do now is with the rule book (G2SS)...He needs to be dragged infront of district or better, council to account for his actions. He has put the unit, the CO, the district, Council and BSA at risk. YES you will not be popular...at least in his book. But, if you read in the papers, ten years from now that some man says Mr. "X" did 'this' to me...(true or not)! How will it feel??? The whole movement is tarred with the same brush when twits make 'mistakes' (read-the press knows no boundaries). If dumbo can't follow the rules he should be removed from 'duty'. We follow a three deep leader rule in our troop...so if one adult, at the last minute, has family/work/whatever emergency and pulls out we do not end up with a 'choice' of cancelling or breaking the rules...or scrambling for a back-up...it also allows for one adult leader to have some 'down time' during the event if needed. It is not that hard...just proper planning.

Eagledad, I don't see a difference in our view of guides...our troop tends to have a good range of ages (currently 8 of 55 active boys are 17-18 years old). In our program, most of our SPLs are juniors or seniors in high school. Most of our guides are ninth or tenth graders...(15-16 years old). And I agree that selfless...role model are outstanding virtues for a guide...they are also traits that I find tremendously important for an outstanding SPL...leading through service! dan, I understood the post...the 'gist' of what I posted stands...the boy needs to demonstrate his abilities to the scouts not the adults to be elected...and being a great troop guide is a way to lock in 8-16 votes, nes pas? It does not prohibit demonstrating ability to adults...but as in all politics...if 'they' don't vote for him...he can't have the job...at least not in a "Boy Led" troop.... 'story': watched a boy 'streak' through several years back now...doing everything the adults expected from him ( I remember making a comment about him getting his ticket punched but not know which way was north)...The leaders (at the time) loved him...he did everything they wanted done...and he did it their way! He was the youngest Life scout the troop could remember. But when he offered himself up for SPL the boys had a different idea...they voted for a quiet, shy, low keyed older boy...who spoke barely above a whisper. BUT, he was always there for the younger scouts...when older boys 'went missing on campouts'...he was there...on high adventure treks, this boy often times became the 'acting' SPL (when young life-super scout was off at other activities) and when any scout had a problem he would step up and show them a way to 'work' on the problem...the point?...He led by SERVICE not by an impressive "presence" or 'authority'. SO, I would hope badgerface could serve his troop in a way to impress the 'voters'...if elected, then he can sit the adults down and show them how he wants to run his troop...with all the advise he has read here.