anarchist

EGGS- good trick here- several plastic companies make rectangular "rubbermaid" bread 'safes'...two cartons fit nicely and in some of these there is enough room for your cheese... cardboard packaging is better for transport than the plastic...(water is a problem if you don't put your lid on tight... Another point about eggs...fresh eggs, from the farm...can be dipped into a parafin bath and backpacked for several days without ice and without spoiling...

Sounds COOL (sorry)... around here, we are lucky to see enough snow most winters to make a snow man...you would need a whole troop and two acres of ground to get enough snow to make a shelter...though two inces of snow here oft time closes school for a day or two... Our Klondike derby sleds usually have runners we never use, and quick install wheels... we almost always use... Glad you had a good time...keep sharing your snow adventures with the lower 48. anarchist

Prarie_Scouter, corporate rather than Corporate; as in a group or formal organization not necessarily incorporated...sharing goals and purpose. It is somewhat naive to think Corporations do not have numerous (non PC) biases. (And get away with it...as do many STATE GOVERMENTS...AND US ARMED SERVICES...and many Churches...etc, etc, etc. Most Corporations are only concerned with the almighty dollar thusly present a PC face to the world or face being hurt in the market place...BSA is not Most Corporations. The Black issue is a hypothetical and a non starter...debate wise...(merlyns straw man?) And your terribly flawed argument about BSA being sectarian due to its position being the same as one (or more)denonination(s) and different from your denominational preference demonstrates that we have beat this horse to death 'cause it's (the arguement) so darn weak! My belief in one area might be the same as a Methodist...that doesn't make me a member of that church... I can believe in some of the same things a Catholic believes...that does not make me a Papist (like that word?), I can believe something Mohammed said... I am not a Muslim...and I can disagree with a Baptist and still be one...or not... A similar position on any particular policy does not in any way even come close to suggesting denominational or sectarian unity... ask the Episcopal Church... I will not argue right or wrong, fair or unfair... the God rule as well as a societal bias against homosexuality was in the organization from the earliest years... If you sit at my poker table, I can make the rules...you can play or go find another game that choice is aways open to you... And if you can convince the legal system to abandon Scouting after years of service...that's the breaks...we will gripe, (even we don't like the 'rules' to appear to be changing)...But in the end it is our game... Power and money??? this 'fight' is about folks that don't like the rules, our rules...to say that the BSA is whining when the Government is "just playing by its rules" is on the face incorrect...the courts are now re-intrepreting the same Constitution that functioned with scouting for over 75 years under a more "PC" 'socio-pablem' way...sorta kinder gentler left wing activist sort of way...and thats the breaks, too...we will survive. Personal story...these discussions led me to ask a bunch of folks (11), parents in our troop, while we were just sitting around in the parents pen (room) waiting for the SPL and Scout Master to finish up...the "QUESTION"...'What they would do if BSA was required to allow homosexual leaders join the troop..." (This discussion took place in the Basement of a United Methodist Church, In the near suburbs of a major metropolitain area. Ten of the eleven members of this group of parents have had at least 4 years of college and are in the upper middle class socio- economically) Most of their scouts are 11-12-13 year olds. Eleven out of eleven said, without hesitation, they would withdraw from scouting. I wonder if National has that in mind? Bias or fear? Just for arguements sake; Is the potential distruction of a national scouting program worth the personal validation for (what?) 10% or less of the population ...the 'injured class'? Interesting question?

Eamonn, said well...and take heart! half filled? half empty?...I am quite sure it really doesn't matter... I am sure as the 'suns commin' up tamarra' that boys exposed to even a partial Scouting program are getting 'more' than boys having no program at all. Have you ever been sipping a cup of...tea(?) and all of a sudden WHAM...pieces fall into place and you have one of those 'thunder clap' revelations? ...it could be something as simple and disturbing as...'gosh...ya know I think ol' Bob White was right on that one!' Or as grand as just mommentarily seeing God's plan in action...just one small clear glimpse! Our work, while we are blessed with the breath of life is to try...as best we can...thats all. Lend a hand when you can, a word of support here, a kind word there...and believe it or not, somewhere along the way we do make a difference. Inch by inch, I think I can, I will, I can, I DID! And Eamonn, As I have said in several posts...we here in these forums (and by your posts I know that you in your district (council?) position) sometimes judge too harshly and 'tag' folks as twits and renegades with only a little 'evidence' (all one sided, too). We should always consider that the less than by the book scouter may not have committee support, he or she may have been begging for help (unsuccessfully) for so long from parents (who believe BSA is a baby sitting service), CCs, COs, and even Districts (?), he/that they just found something that seems to work for their unit...and got comfortable...and it 'seems' to be working...so what the hey! Then some 'by the booker', say a newbie parent or a district commissioner or an newly joined experienced Scouter comes along and wants to shake things up...both sides have a stake (yes?). The "rogue" has been offering "scouting" to boys in the community for 26 years...how long will the newbie stick around? or the transfered scouter for that matter? In our unit we have a "do it rule"...if you have a suggestion or a change you want to see executed...be prepared to volunteer to implement it; 'cause you just volunteered... The number of times I have seen a parent (or three) say, "I/We think you ought to try to do_(fill in the blank)_" and the SM says "GREAT IDEA, why don't you take that ball and run with it!'and the "Great Idea Person" heads for the hills is far greater than the "I/WE are here for the duration, how can we help!?!" and then actually 'stick' for six or seven years. Just know you are fighting the good fight and as you remarked upon a month or so back after spending some good time with a bunch of young people...this is what we are in this 'thing' called Scouting for...the KIDS...a little time with the 'troop' renewed you...maybe you need to get back to the unit level for a while to 'juice up the batteries'...In any case, Thank you for what you do! YiS rogue, bomb throwing, anarchist!

EagleIn Ky, if you'd like, PM me with email address and I'll zip some troop documents we use for intros... We start at the end of the crossover with a few sheets of info and a question answer session...we hand out applications to those we didn't already 'close' and give them the summer camp handouts. In many if not most cases we have the application the check and the summercamp deposit already out of the way before they come to their first Boy Scout Meeting...At that meeting we give out the permanent passwords for the troop web site (all of our troop info is there) and we handout more information, including the NSPs first shakedown campout! This Parent Meeting is run by one of the NSP-ASMs, with a brief appearance by the Scout Master(15-20 minutes) and after the first parent meeting the SM emails a fairly long jargon letter (email dictionary)explaining to NEWBIES some of the 'secret mysteries' of the secret order of boy scouting... acronyms and the basics of the patrol method. Many new parents go with us on the Shakedown...and for most of that camp the SM has them off playing "Patrol method" for the day...to keep them out of their sons hair... I 'capped' the term 'newbies' 'cause last year, several months after this orientation flury (for 30 sets of new parents)...it came to light that several parents really took offense at being tagged 'newbies' (at least one family even left the troop cause we were closed minded elitists who had no time to listen to newbies)...where the Sm thought it was an 'endearing'little fun word, some felt offended...so walk softly with terminology... We do not encourage new scout parents to call PLs...we have them call the ASM in charge of NSPs... or the parent can have the new scout call his guide with a question...but we found over the past several years, at least one parent each year will try to 'overpower' (intimidate?)the PL or the Guide if there is a 'difference of opinion' or misunderstanding as to the workings of the program...by calling the ASM ...we have a more level playing field... and less chance of misunderstandings. YiS anarchist

In your neck of the Republic, think livestock 'run-in'...except they have woodplank floors...three side walls, open front, slant roof...and 'cause you are 'off the ground' you sleeping 'elevated' in the winter...cold air above-cold air below! no bad when a real storm blows in but not the best place in the woods to kick back and sip coffee!

Torveaux, sorry, but I hardily disagree, In the Webelos program the belt loop requirement is NO different than any other requirement of the total requirements for the particular Webelos activity pin/award. As with all other requirements the process is directed, scheduled and controled by the WDL and only the WDL. He or she may determine what evidence of completeion is necessary and you nor the parents have a lot to say about it. If the WDL wants the requirements done "in den", I see nothing in the book that says it is adding or subtracting...Most WDLs will accommodate almost anything...but it is up to the WDL not the parents to sign off on a Webelo activity requirement...which the belt loop becomes when using it as/for the webelos activity pin.

Cajuncody, glad to see ya got a committee... With the COR...call for signnatures you need then head to the IH of the CO when you do not get your timely needs met...and say 'I need signatures.'.. after several times of this you can then enlist the CC to sit down with the IH and help him on the selection path to a new COR if needed. A really good COR can be cool...This person has a vote at COUNCIL and DISTRICT committee meetings and can make good contacts to help your pack, if that is the kind of person you 'get' for a COR. there are more than one way to skin a cat...trick is figuring if the cat will be still while ya do it....

Lynncc, I try to show boys thatcooking and meals should be fun and creative. Further, in todays culture of overweight, vid gaming, couch potatos, I feel that showing them real,good tasting food is not beyond them. We start our New Scout Patrols (NSPs) with this exercise the night they cross-over as part of the welcome package. The parents are given two menus. One similar to this (with out prices) and one that is basically "bunch of eggs", "some taters",etc.,... the parents are then asked to sit down between the crossover and the first BSA meeting and using the local newspapers sales flyers walk their son through pricing and serving amounts... just to get the wheels turning. Their first meeting (this coming Monday) will be preparing for the shakedown campout (NSPs, guides and instructors only) (yeah, and adult leaders). Their guides will be helping them design their first menu, shopping list and then schedule a 'whole patrol' shopping trip...Our NSPs are strongly encouraged to shop as a patrol for most of their first year (grubmasters simply 'lead' the shopping trip)...after the first few trips it gets easier... and we usually have an ASM along to keep 'too helpful' Moms and Dads on the sidelines ('course we call it 'adult-centered, patrol method education')...the Guides can handle the NSP boys! And finally (for now)...we don't require totally balanced meals for the whole weekend...every weekend... (though the SPL encourages lots of cooking schedule permitting) we simply try to discourage the junk food and sweets... One of the reasons the adults FEED SO WELL on our trips is to give the boys ideas as to what they can do... When a lad asks the 'fat guy with a beard' to try some of the smoked or poached fish or D.O. ribs that HE cooked ...I feel we are getting through... I can smell the smoke already.... And BW...do I get a lolly pop?

Ready BW??? Prices from local giant, food lion and safeway... Menu is off the top of my sorry old head....with the sales circulars from the sunday paper to help...and I bet I can beat these numbers by shopping hard. Friday night - cracker barrel $3.00 2 boxes snack type crackers $3.00 bag of pears (or corn chips) $1.00 Cocoa __________ subtotal $7.00 (note quick soups and chips @1/2 this) Sat. Morning D.O. Mountain Man $0.99 18 eggs (more than enough for six boys) $2.50 1 lbs sausage $4.00 2 lbs bag chunk cheddar cheese $3.00 5 lbs potatos (-use 2 lbs) $1.00 large onion $0.00 charcoal (see dinner expense) $1.50 can of biscuits $1.50 hot sauce _____________________ Sub total $14.50 Sat Lunch $ 6.00 1 1/2 lbs sliced Ham $ 4.00 1 lb of mont. jack cheese $ 2.00 2 medium loaves of store brand bread $ 0.99 small mustard $ 1.99 Mayo $ 3.00 3 lb bag of gala apples $ 3.00 store brand lemonade mix __________________ Sub total $21.00 Sat dinner D. O. Pot Roast $10.00 2.5lbs of round roast $0.00 3 lbs potatos (left from breakfast) $1.00 1 lbs carrots $1.00 large onion $3.00 1 lb butter $2.00 1 lbs fresh green beans (salad) $2.00 1+ lbs prepared salad (bag) $1.50 bottle of italian dressing $1.00 6 diner rolls /(bisquick?) $2.00 cocoa (or lemonade left from lunch) $4.00 canned fruit (peaches/cherries) (cobbler) $1.50 cake mix $1.00 sugar $1.00 cinnamon $10.00 charcoal (40 lbs) _______________________ sub total $41.00 Sunday Morning - (quick out) $1.50 6 Bagels $1.00 Cream cheese $2.99 12 packs store brand of oatmeal $1.00 10 packs of cocoa _________ sub total $6.50 TOTAL $90.00 plus tax(?) with no major 'searching for economies' no bulk purchases...could easily be cheaper with less food (portions)or chicken or better sales...this is more food than most boys will eat, uses two or three D.O.s, has quick lunch which could be cheaper with noodle soups (Rammen)...and quick low drag Sunday breakfast and gosh its $15.00 per boy... And gosh it Equals $15.00 per scout has lots of veggies and fruit Hey BW...wanna go again? anarchist (This message has been edited by anarchist)

clpagel, All three (of those activities) should be verified and signed off by the WDL not the parents...there are work sheets for recording what was done for these three activities and you could ask parents to verify some WDLs even administer written tests ...but if the boys bring in the work sheets and can share with you what they did as a den/patrol they share the adventure with their pals... and once again PYFF...confusion? you mention Skiing...I assume here you are talking belt loops, WEBELOS has no skiing activity pen...when you talk about 'those two as a family and golfing'????...some of us are talking rank activities and you seem to be talking about loops again...which are mostly extra curricular... Last do the pack fees include recharter monies??? (membership insurance and BOYSLIFE?) If so that is non-proratable but transferable for a buck.... which leaves about $79 minus 4 or five months ...$42-55 dollars back? Again good luck

Prarie_Scouter, What is being missed here? The organization says...homosexuals are not eligible for leadership or membership in the organization/movement...take it as a personal (corporate) belief...what is so hard to understand? Many organizations doing tremendous amounts of good work have their own membership requirements...US ARMY for one, numerous church and fraternal organizations additionally... Societies in general and orgainizations in particular have cyclic lives. They go through 'conservative' and 'liberal' swings usually in response to events and pressures in the real world. U.S. history, Church history even world history bears this premise out. War, hunger, crime, poverty, rapid change, new discoveries and economic upheaval all can lead (frequently?) to revivals, renaisances, retrenching, change, or growth. These things can even cause the break down of societies or countries... To see a dramatic change in the supposedly 'new' antigay stance by BSA is grasping... More cogent would be the realization that certain members of our society inorder to validate their own existence find a powerful need to brake-down any and all 'barriers' they find. They do this to enhance their own feeling of self-worth. Why else would someone find a need to 'belong' to an organization regardless of the discomfort their overt presence evoked in the other participants in that 'movement'? There is no law (or rule even) to prevent Gay men from starting their own outdoors-based organization. So why the need to force ones self into an organization that just says no??? crusade or not at least you don't call folks names...

LyndaJ, Academy? What, pray tell is Academy? (almost added a "hon" in there...is 'hon' still aceptable in Texas?...Its been a while) Why shucks, I probably paid $3.99 for my two D.O. tools (they are almost older than my scouts (sons) Used to use cressent offset plyers but I like the bail hook on the BSA tool. My oldest D.O. is about 25 years young...and a couple of my yard sale frying 'irons' are even older... thanks for the heads up though...

Thanks so far... Lynda J, I have seen your type of outfit...its a 'home' version of the garage tarp others have posted (but faster to set up and put away than the store bought ones...but it is still a real bear to load in a canoe or carry on a hike...(bet we just need more boy scouts huh?) We have the store bought version and it only gets used maybe once a year... What I am looking at are the really light nylon flys...that one boy can carry... keep it comming though... heigh ho heigh ho its of the camp we go....

Trail shelters are not cabins just gloified lean-tos...more to the point they are colder in the winter, buggier in the summer and often time expose 'campers' to rodent droppings which dry and are ground up by foot traffic and become airborne pathogenic transport vectors...sounds yummie right? Pitch a tent out of sight of the shelters...its more comfortable and healthier and more enjoyable. Leave the shelters for the less prepared (less intelligent) folks caught out in the weather with out a tent and without any sense... BTW...In talking to several folks who do 'AT care-taking' duties, most of them feel the shelters should only be used for extreme weather situations (high-wind storms which may cause blow downs and endanger tent campers...) At other times they actively encourage tent use off the beaten track...

What happened to real cooking??? Home-made, three bean-four alarm chilli, D.O. pot roasts biscuits, Stew from scratch with dumplins or biscuits on top, D.O. mountain man breakfast, Vegetables? Fruit? Real desserts? Part of this program is to help teach them to make balanced meals??? good grief..donuts? as a meal??? smores as dessert (is this girl scouts?) While we allow meals to be tailored to the activities at hand ...busy time tables require quicker meals...Saturday night is not 'two cans of spaghetti sauce and pasta'...they cook real meals! and I see a lot of 'TROOPs' collecting $$$s? I thought this was partol method scouting??? wassup?

EagleInKY, I stand corrected...actually I'm sorta sitting and sipping, not standing... anyway...'briantshore'...joes always on...and sometimes the water gets a leeetle hot, but its all in good fun... YiS anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)

FOR RANK- It is nobodies call...Camping in a tent?under the stars... with the unit or patrol..thats what it says.... (no "should" or "may"'s... no wiggle room)! For merit Badge ...in a tent you help pitch...not in a hotel room or RV and only one week at summer camp....(someone else pitched those tents) Where is the 'call' in all this?....'for the boys' is not good justification to waive a requirement... Even patrol camping requires a plan and approval of the SM/ASM corp...so perhaps, if you back yard was big enough...it could be snaked in with and approved plan.... appeals...anyone can appeal anything if they want to go to district, council or national... to be heard...and district/council caves on lots of stuff....just do your best... Remember you are the head of a committee....not a dictator (benevolent or other-wise) and committees should work by consensus ...you are not Roosevelt and the buck really doesn't stop at the CC (most days anyway) As to the who is 'boss' (testosterone contest)...in the end it is the CO/IH not the CC or SM...On most program questions the CO will listen and back the SM if push came to shove...Remember good SMs are scarce as hens teeth...CCs are viewed by CO's, as nice people but interchangable with other committee members (we all look alike don't we....it's a joke, folks...). and oh yes, FScouter...the Sheraton only stopped unit 'suite camping' a few years ago...seems LNT fire techniques were too hard on the carpets and the cat holes were too unsightly! LOL

clpagel "can't be" for instance???? P T F F...I hope you get some of your money back...why did your new pack charge full years dues????shouldn't that be prorata also??? finally, I sort of missed seeing the amount we are talking about here...den fees pack fees both? old PACK/DEN fees vs new PAC/DEN fees, are we talking real money here??

Gosh looking at many of these great Ideas I know someone in Irving Texas just has to (also) be thinking about new Merit Badges Classes; Insurance Underwriting, Claims adjusting, shark fishing, (using surfers?) advanced swimming and surfing with ocean fencing/shark net technology-techniques. Practical Dental First Aid and field surgery... Orthopedic care and Prosthesis Device Design.... gosh I am all a twitter the list is endless!

TSK TSK EagleInKy, LNT tells us never to cut across switchbacks... briantshore, welcome to the madness...pour a cup of joe and hang on for the ride...and repeat after me..."one hour a week"

Prairie_Scouter, I suggest you reread you own last post...even my 15 year old son picked up on an obvious slant to your posting... It appears that you are looking for an answer that agrees with the opinion you have already formed...Semantically loaded questions and examples point to a bias already formed...There are many references and stories around, visit the web, a library or call Merlyn...but my guess is you want the BSA program to be inclusive of a certain segment of our society currently excluded. Any thing less is a failing of the BSA program no matter that now more than ever more socio-economic groups, races, and folks of different religions have the opportunity to participate in scouting... or am I just reading too many psychology books lately? good luck with your quest or is it a crusade?(This message has been edited by anarchist)

OneHour, Sounds kinda high...has someone set up a retirement IRA? We run 'net-zero' camps...we do not have "troop kitchens or purchases" If a campsite cost is zero the kids and adults only pay for food they buy. If there is a campsite fee that is prorated per head (adults included)...That said, we HAVE just instituted a fuel fee to partially offset the price of fuel for transport (drivers) on trips over 100 miles...guideline is to keep it in the $5.00-8.00 range (or less)per long trip. This gives most drivers $15.-24.00 on long trips. Food cost is totally a patrol thing,Troop does not get involved. Patrols build menus, estimate costs and grubmaster collects patrol funds...Usually $10-$12 per weekend. Adults generally follow the same course...'cept we generally eat much better $15.00 (D.O. beef roast, smoked lamb, venison, chicken, ribs, crab stuffed mushrooms, pinto beans, streamed veggies,poached trout, Stews, and lots of fresh D.O. Sourdough bread...we try to open the Scouts eyes and taste buds as to what can be done outdoors... Recharter time (March for us) is @ $22.00 for BSA plus $20.00 troop dues (total $45)and a second installment of troop dues (actually the first installment) of $25.00 is collected in September. Summer camp is $200-$230 plus bus ($28-$35) per boy (truely the way to go), parents pay @$50 for camp though usually we get 4 or 5 adult freebies due to the size of our summer camp troop (40-60 boys)...many adults choose to drive separately to camp (for sanities sake). Camporees run generally $30-$40 per head including food. Extra troop cash comes from one or two troop fund-raisers and parents have the option of setting up scout account fund-raisers if they are willing to run them...Our high adventure patrol also does some cash raising for its trips...separate from the troop as a whole. Our adults 'pay to play'..we don't put it on the backs of the boys... PS. On campouts our SPL and ASPL (and ACTING SPL if the real deal is absent) eat with the adults for free...and they also mooch from patrols...sort of graze their way 'around camp'...particularrly for desserts... Subsidizing the adults is nice but is it necessary? Seems that your troop needs to look over the books to see what's going out? thing to look for though in the troops defence- some parks also charge a vehicle access fee (can be $10.00 per car), some parks charge a reservation fee ($5-10) PS. travel soccer cost to my family, for one boy is @$1,500 per year transport not included) Cross country another $100 plus travel and food -for eight weeks... Good bean counting!

WHOA FOLKS (FScouter) BEFORE YOU GO BRANDING DLs rogues... If I understand your first post, your son is a webelos 1...correct? In that case any award earned as a webelos must be done with the DL's approval/sign off not the family or parent...it is different from the other Cub ranks and awards...you can not 'do' (say) forester with your son...he must do it with the DL and his den...so the fact (if I understand it) that you did it with him amounts to "0"- no award, Webelos activities are Den centered. as to pack dues...council will propbably not be able to help much...it really depends on the Pack policy and what the dues pay for... the BSA member ship is fully transferable but the pack dues may be another story...So activities require deposits and are 'numbers of participant sensitive' when some packs schedule they schedule for all and if you don't participate thats your decission weird but true... good luck but don't hold your breath

Book does not specify that boy has to build and under a general patrol format a different boy or group of boys would do the fire as part of sharing duties on the campouts...though I wouldn't loose a bit of sleep over it one way or the other... question for busylady; why aren't your older scouts teaching lower level scout requirements???They should be able to handle it...Remember- if the boys can do it...the adults DON'T ...thats part of being boy led.