fred8033

Everyone also agrees on high standards which then leads to recognition when it is for real accomplishment.

bnelon44 wrote: "For a number of years now, I have looked at having a unit strive to have their Scouts achieve 1st Class in 1 year as motivation to get them to have a better troop program, not crank out 1st Class Scouts. Troops with good programs tend to produce 1st Class Scouts in less than 1 year. " Exactly. No one could ever force scouts to advance. But to keep kids in scouting, troops need good troop programs. When is it good? Generally when an involved scout can reasonably achieve FCFY. If it's a big challenge for an involved scout to get FCFY, then the troop needs to step i

Beavah - "I appreciate how novices in an area like scouting advancement prefer to cling to the introductory lessons and guidebooks as though they are dogma." Really? Novices? Such insults Beavah are below you. But people do tend to get grumpy and jaded with so many many many many years of experience behind them. Ya keep getting confused in what we're saying. Novices like me hold tight to the BSA GTA and other BSA guidance because of the abuses we've seen by so many grumpy old scouters who remember the prestige of rank right along with marching ten miles to school in the snow ev

dkurtenbach - Thanks. I didn't look at the 2008 ACPP. I was looking at the next one which I think was 2009 or 2010. I think was released briefly and then pulled off the shelves pending the GTA release.

Twocubdad wrote: "Yes, you absolutely need to cook for your patrol multiple time before passing the requirement. " ... "Are we adding to the First Class requirement? I DON'T CARE." Yeah. We had a similar problem with pop tart meals for a bit. We used a bit of creativity and the normal scouting processes to solve it. We just didn't feel arrogant enough to re-write BSA advancement to solve normal issues. Heck, scouts were the ones who recognized the issue. Scouts choose to have their SPL review meal plans at the troop meetings. Scouts also choose a list of items that would not

twocubdad - Glad to see someone's helping keep the Eagle scout percentages down. I'm impressed with your expertise and your confidence that enables you to proclaim that you do not care if your violating BSA's rules. My only fear is that you pass that big-boss, screw-em, don't care attitude down to your scouts. Good luck. I hope you find that scoutmaster replacement your asking for. ... bnelon44 - Great quote to guide us. This time from Baden-Powell. Really impressive. I really like what BP said essentially about expertise / proficiency. IMHO, that's dead on with what I've l

Beavah wrote: "What I'm saying is that the approach to Advancment which makes yeh use words like "test" and "flunk" is wrong. It's not scouting. " Now here's something where I do agree with Beavah. Now we might need the term "test" to create a concrete program structure and to communicate how the program works relative to advancement. But when it comes to working with the scout one-on-one, the term "testing" should not be there. It's working with the scout and helping him grow as a person. It's mentorship. It's not grade school. When the authorized leader (mentor) thinks the perso

bnelon44 wrote: "Personally I like making sure the Scout actually accomplishes the requirement on his own prior to signing him off." ... It would be a great addition. What happens to merit badge fairs such as at the Jamboree or at summer camps. It would be interesting. bnelon44 wrote: "I also like the idea of waiting a short period of time between the learning of a skill and the examination for the skill (say a week or two). " ... Yet another great addition. A major issue is teaching and testing at the same time. There is a difference between demonstrate and mimic. If the GTA sug

"... is the "one and done" mentality ..." ... And of course the grumpy old debate raises it's apocalyptic zombie head yet again.

desertrat77 wrote: "there was almost none of the hype that you see from National today" Really? Eagle has always been hyped. But I agree that the average scout is more motivated to earn Eagle. IMHO, there might be fewer scouts, but scouts in the program are much more motivated to earn Eagle. That itself can cause a big statistical shift.

IMHO, this isn't about feeding the child. It's about having an extra person in the room. The room should have the candidate, the BOR members and optionally the candidates unit leader (i.e. scoutmaster). The person's age doesn't matter. The breastfeeding doen't matter. It's just wrong to have someone else in the room whether that person is two months, two years, two decades or two score years old. At best, the extra person is a non-issue. At worst, the extra person detracts from the BOR. Sounds like this detail was missed. So then what you do? It sounds like it was handled

Beavah wrote: "Since we've mostly dispensed with da original question and the McDonald's thing, let me come back around to this point of CalicoPenn's." Yeah ... Don't confuse "dispensing" and others giving up shouting at the wind. Sometimes you don't have enough time to just say the same things over and over again. Especially when others just don't want to listen. JMHawkins - Your mistake is viewing scouts as burgers ... as meat and wanting to produce "pre-fab Scouts flash-frozen" eagle scouts. They're not. Scouts are the customers. We serve them. The product is the Boy Scout

All of our recent eagles have been 17. With the exception of one, they were all very busy in our troop. Easily over a hundred nights of camping each. We didn't work to delay them. It's just how it worked out. I'm fine if a kid earns Eagleaat 14. It's just my experience that those who go for eagle generally enjoy the program and thus stay involved. But that's our troop.

I'm all for outdoor focus. Outdoor adventures create the environment where the scouts must work together to get the job done. No game playing needed. It's part of the adventure. BUT ... I think the big big issues is perception. The country has changed. Politics have changed. What's acceptable has changed. BSA is out of date. BSA needs to avoid cultural battles and focus on serving youth. It comes down to as long as BSA judges people, people will judge BSA. BSA should just be the umbrella under which many organizations come to structure their youth programs. I truly think

Yeah, I've been burnt by the two year training too. I'm getting my next certs thru NRA and USA Archery association. They don't expire if keep your registration current.

My favorite is that Arthur Eldred, 1st Eagle Scout, earned 1st class rank four months after his troup was created. BSA was about a year old. Then he completed the Eagle required 21 merit badges one year later. So eagle after 16 months as a scout. Recognized as Eagle about five months later.

Beavah - You decry treating scouts like hamburgers but at the same time you practice cafeteria leadership. Picking and choosing the published rules you will follow. There's a term for that. ... Beavah wrote - "There's no such thing as a 'standard product'." ... Ummm ... really? The signed agreement is that the charter org will "conduct the Scouting program according to it's own policies and guidelines as well as those of the Boy Scouts of America." And that the charter partner will provide a charter org rep who signs a BSA membership application. And you know that it says "I

This is why one family should never do everything. Doesn't matter if COR is the SM's dad. He's the one who needs to know. COR is the one who's supposed to make sure the SM is doing a good job. SM is also a representative of the COR.

Troop pays $25 for a gift, a BSA eagle pocket knife. Sometimes (not always) the troop pays for new candles for the candle tree used for the Scout Oath. That's it. Council pays for Eagle award kit. Council loans out ECOH kits with table decorations, special flags, statues, etc. Eagle scouts can choose to be recognized at one of the four annual troop COHs or have their own ECOH. Their choice. Their cost. Hopefully, the scouts coordinate it and not the parents. If they want a special cake, the family pays for it. The best ECOHs I've been at have been about 20 to 30 minut

acco40: - Sorry. I was tired. I meant elementary school shower room. It was turned into storage before I went to the school. There were rumors of something happening back around 1970, but no one was ever charged. A year or two before I went there it was turned into a storage room and the requirement to take showers was eliminated. ... Kudu: I'm not really sure what your trying to say..... ... shortridge wrote: "why should those officials and leaders and institutions of yesteryear NOT be held accountable for how they mistreated victims, assuming the cases fall within

shortridge wrote:: "past will be judged improperly against contemporary standards and practices" Yeah... Fully believe it. Things have changed alot. ... Swimming. The one that shocked me was from my dad. His gym classes did not use swim suits. This surprised me. So I looked it up and I was amazed. It was true. Schools, YMCAs, mens clubs, etc. often required no swim suits. Single gender classes and facilities. Pre-nylon and wet clothes were an issue. And it was fairly recently too. so I could easily imagine scout leaders on hiking trips doing as they were taught. .

Agreed. This is a witch hunt. Victim names will be redacted. How about who face unsubstantiated accusations? Until an incident is deemed credible, the accused is also a victim. This is just like what happened in corporate law. For the last several years, most of the companies that I work for delete ALL email after 30, 60 or 90 days. It's a huge headache for the employees. But it protects companies from lawsuits that go fishing in email archives. Will it be the same now for BSA? Every rumor needs to be a police case? Every time something doesn't jive call the police? Now BSA

bnelon44: - Thanks for the great write ups. I've stayed silent for a few days as I'm trying to find the specifics. I was looking for either a physical or PDF version of the 1936 and/or 1947 scoutmaster handbooks. I agree with what your saying. In my job, you never have those doing the work also doing the quality control evaluation of the work. Anyway, it is always interesting to hear what Hillcourt really said as people often attribute differently to people who are not there to speak for themselves.

BSA24 - Nice points. Right attitude. Thanks.

My top list is ... - Yelling - Threatening "One more time and you go home" more than once every few years - Lack of sense of humor - Lack of youthful attitude - Lack of adventurours attitude - Inability to de-escalate problems - Inability to coach the youth leaders - Skills - Not knowing. Not teaching. Not testing. - Burnout