fred8033

- 25 is not a large troop. It's an average troop. - 5 to 7 is a "starter" troop. It's a troop with one patrol and no SPL. It should have a goal of getting to the ideal of 32 scouts. Avoid the troop if it doesn't have that goal and a plan and a candidate pool of future scouts. - 50+, 60+, 70+, 80+ is a large troop. The trouble with a troop of 5 to 7 scouts is... - If a few quit, you don't have enough scouts - If a few scouts don't go on a camp out, you can end up canceling events. - Every parent needs to help. Not enough families to just have a few families help. - Not enough scouts to spread responsibility. - Not enough scouts to have more than one patrol. - Not enough scouts to have a real PLC. If it is a starter troop with a goal of getting to 32 scouts, great! Go for it. It can be fulfilling to start a new troop. If it is a troop that's struggling for membership, be wary. Use your judgement. If you think the troop will grow, then you decide if that situation is better than the other one. BUT if you think it will stay at 5 to 7 scouts and have membership struggles, I would not personally join. It's just won't offer a rich scouting experience.

ParkMan wrote: "Personally, I'm a big fan of the Webelos being Webelos - an almost separate program from the Cubs or the Boy Scouts. " Me too. Webelos need to viewed and structured as separate from both Cubs and Webelos.

Horizon wrote: "When I was growing up, Jane Fonda movies were not allowed to be shown in our house. My father despised her for her actions during the Vietnam era. I don't think that hurt her much." Jane Fonda's career took a HUGE HUGE HUGE hit because of that incredibly insensitive picture she took and all the surrounding comments etc. And rightfully so. Our soldiers were getting killed every day in Vietnam. And she (i.e. Hanoi Jane) was sitting on artillery aimed at our soldiers. There are multiple generations that remember that picture. http://www.iconocast.com/07-10-2012/74/Jane-Fonda-regrets-missile-picture.php I thought of the Jane Fonda parallel with the Dixie Chicks too. The one I get a kick out of is the generation of men that won't support the Red Cross because the Red Cross charged them for donuts and coffee in London during WWII. Boycotts are interesting. But lifelong brand damage is a whole different level.

I remember the Dixie Chick controversy back when it happened. I had to look up the details. Then read about their 2006 tour. Wow. Adding concerts in Canada. Canceling and downsizing concerts in the US. Now touring as an opening act. Not as a headliner. Hmmm.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidents_%26_Accusations_Tour It's also interesting in that they've won multiple Grammies (plural of Grammy???). Shows a disconnect between sales and awards. Interesting.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I was thinking Webelos still attend the monthly pack meetings at the pack meeting site day and time. But then hold their den meetings at the same date and time as a troop meeting. Start together for flag ceremony. Then branch off to run their own den meeting. I don't even think you need to limit this to 2nd year webelos. You could do this with 1st year webelos too. In fact, I think it would help the most if you start it with 1st year webelos. Zero impact on the pack. But the Webelos start seeing a much more mature program, see boys they can look up to and see activities they want to do themselves.

ScoutNut: "What about those Webelos who might not want to join that particular Boy Scout Troop? When they are "forced" to attend to Troop meetings of one only Troop they get the impression that it is that Troop or nothing. Can't say I am a fan of that concept at all. " It sort of goes back to the old model of joining the troop that's aligned with your pack. Natural transition. But there's no rule that you have to join the same unit. "I believe", ... no special knowledge ... , that model is being revisited to bring a smoother program.

IMHO, den chief often doesn't work. It takes either a very special unique Boy Scout or a Boy Scout who's younger brother is in the Cub Scout den. The biggest challenge is transportation. Either the scout needs to live very close or depend on a parent who's already going because of a younger brother in the den. Though I suspect some den chiefs do great job, I've yet to see it. Mainly because the den chiefs that sign up to help us have had no transportation. Or they've had other obligations too like school and sports. In a way, that's why I'd like to see Webelos dens meet at the same location as the troop. It would give mentoring opportunities to the boy scouts and possibly help den chiefs solve the transportation issues.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Do something like the following... Proposal - Hold Webelos den meetings at troop meetings. Webelos could line up just like another troop patrol. Stand thru the flag ceremony. Then as soon as the flag ceremony is done, they break off before troop announcements and business begins. I think it would help with scout retention. Plus the young scouts could see the example of the older scouts and develop the desire to be like those older scouts. They'd also get to see how a troop is run by the scouts and the type of activities they get to look forward to doing. Webelos is already a transitional program where they work on skills needed as a Boy Scout. Right now, they are tightly linked to the Tigers, Wolves and Bears. Those are programs that Webelos are already out growing. I think it would help to break that link a bit and start growing the ties to Boy Scouts. Comments?

scouts-a-lot: "As an adult involved in all three levels I welcome it. I cannot tell you the # of times I have said the wrong words and looked foolish!" Been there. Screwed it up too. LOL. twocubdad: "If you were going to design a system whereby half-way through the program you winnowed the membership by half, you couldn't come up with much better than the current Crossover baloney." Fully agree. I hope a one oath is just a start. I can't say the number of times I've been sad when families leave near the end of cub scouts without really understanding that Boy Scouts is a much different and much more dynamic program. Scouts and families in their 4th / 5th year of Cub Scouts are ready for more. But they just see the Tiger / Wolf / Bear program. They don't see the youth leadership and fun program of Boy Scouts. As part of smoothing out the relationship between Cubs, Boy Scouts and Venturing, I'd like to see Webelos treated more like a 4th step. Bring all the programs closer together, but keep treating Webelos as a transitional program that prepares Cubs for Boy Scouts. Right now, Webelos is treated separately ... somewhat. You hear it at times that Webelos are not Cub Scouts. But then they get registered with the pack and meet with the pack. I'd just like to see a stronger separation between Cub Scouts and Webelos. One possible change is that instead of having Webelos meet with the pack, have the Webelos meet with the troop. Keep a Webelos den leader. Grow the use of the "denner". Have Webelos working on functional skills they can use when they become Boy Scouts. Have them see the older boys in action. Then in Feb of 5th grade, they graduate from Webelos into full members of the troop. With that one change, I think you would retain many more scouts and develop a strong Boy Scout program. I'm going to spin this off as a thread. But even then smooth out the transition between all four programs, Cub Scouts, Webelos, Boy Scouts and Venturing. ... Of course this is all just "supposing" that change is coming. We all hope the future will bring improvements. But who knows....(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I always viewed this as oxymoronic. If your an Eagle scout, you protest by returning your Eagle badge. If your a scout, you protest by dropping out. So then at that point, your not a scout. So then as a non-scouter, you protest by putting on a scout shirt. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

Guessing... Sitting, 2nd from right. Elbert K. Fretwell??? Succeeded West as Chief Scout in 1943.http://www.willard.lib.mi.us/historical/bcphotos/individuals/h06_1913.htm

I'm sad for your difficult situation. My apologies but it is difficult to be able to comment on what your describing. Your description reflects that your very affected. And it's difficult to know what's going on. My only comment is that your son's time in scouting is short. It might not seem that way but it is. If you don't see a quick solution, move on. The most important thing is that your son has a positive learning and growing experience. If the troop leadership dynamic hurting that experience, move on. If anything, invite your son's friends to join you in the troop you move into.

Abel Magwitch wrote: "Quite the double standard don't you think?" Not really. It's part of working in a multi-cultural society. When we work in our own private groups, we can express our own beliefs. When we work as part of public / governmental groups, we have to follow a different set of rules. That's life.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

For young adults ... it's good to leave the nest. Even the scouting nest. Get out. Experience life. First learned that years ago from watching the 1970s TV series The Paper Chase. Got to admit though, I agree with it. And I've done it several times moving coast-to-coast for years at a time until finally getting married and having kids. There's something about cutting the umbilacal cord. Later, you can return to scouting fresh with more experience. Then again, if you stay in as an adult, that's fine too. Each person experiences his own path. For youth though, give'em adventure, responsibility, friendship, good experiences and respect. Some will stay. Some won't. Just be happy with eagle scout you have.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I hope Northern Star gets can make their stand and just move on from the silly public debate.

I once was caught up thinking about procedures and policies on this. Then realized too many people say too many different things. Even BSA documentation is confusing at times. So I found a good rule of thumb. Who's putting their name down saying the candidate leader will make a good leader? Look at the adult leader application. Who signs it? From the unit, the committee chair and charter org representative sign it. So they are explicitly and literally approving it. There is no scoutmaster signature line. REMEMBER: No one can make you sign your name indicating you are approving it if you do NOT approve. The rest is just unit politics and procedures. If a unit is smart, key leaders in the unit all are friendly and work together. What you are dealing with is a potential volunteer who doesn't realize how it works. You are also pretty new and just learning what your "responsibility" is. Your key role is making sure the right volunteers are in the right jobs.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Extremely well written and well thought out. http://www.northernstarbsa.org/AboutUs/Leadership/Inclusiveness.aspx

QUESTION - Does anyone know more information about the coming initiatives for a more seamless Cub Scout-Boy Scout-Venturing program? Is there something summarizing this or talking about what's being looked into?

This seems very easy to accomplish because the Boy Scouts use the "Scout Oath and Law". It doesn't have "Boy" in the title, in the oath or in the law. The Cub Scout oath refers to Akela which is a reference to a cute story and lend to use by Boy Scouts or Venturers. The Venturer Oath sounds like something Superman would say: "truth, justice and the american way". I think the Scout Oath and Law are ready as is for adoption.

I like the idea and would very much welcome the change. - Cub promise seams like a washed out version of the boy scout oath. The only meaningful words are the words that are also in the Boy Scout oath. "do my best" "duty to God and my country." "To help other people". As for "Law of the Pack", most people don't follow the jungle story theme and it's nothing specific. But the Boy Scout Oath is directly applicable and easy to understand. And it leads directly into the Scout Law. - I myself can easily recite the boy scout oath and law. But after 12 years in cub scouts, I still stumble over the cub scout promise. - Many cub scout leader were boy scouts and still remember the boy scout oath. They don't remember the cub scout promise. - For scouts themselves... ---- Most Boy Scouts learn the Boy Scout oath and law by heart. We see value in that. It's something useful to remember their whole lives. Something to live by. ---- Few cubs remember the Cub SCout promise thru one meeting and I've yet to see one that remembers it from when they were cubs. - I like the idea of starting young young kids thinking about the terms "honor" and values such as trustworthy, loyal, etc. - I've never cared for installing the Jungle Book story in a promise. I'm okay structuring the program around it. But I'd rather not see it in the promise.

I'm okay with the moral equivalence here. Most smokers and overweight people readily admit that it's bad, wrong and a poor example. They'd like to change. So if we continue that ....

Scout shop want a special clearance to sell a 4XL to a scout leader. Not for me. They said anyone purchasing that need to get authorization to purchase them.

BSA24 - Your just being hateful now. All smokers know smoking is bad for them. Most want to quit. I've only met a few who advocate smoking and it's always advocating smoking pot. Same with those overweight. They know the extra weight is bad for them and it affects their whole life. Essentially, no one advocates smoking or weighing too much. No one would suggest we teach being overweight and/or smoking as a healthy positive moral attribute. It's not good for them and they would prefer to be otherwise. But, BSA has already moved in your proposed direction. Weight limits at high adventures. Needing doctor slips at scout shopts to purchase uniforms over a certain size. Designated smoking spots at camp located far away from the scouts. So perhaps your proposal isn't so far fetched.

I've used Google sites, Google Calendar, Google Docs, etc. They are good free tools, but they are flaky and generic. Some Google spreadsheet commands just don't work and other commands fail in different modes. Google docs has gone thru cycles where parts just doesn't work for a few weeks at a time. At this point, I have a hard time depending on them. They are good tools for free. And Google sites seems pretty good. For $99 per year, SOAROL.com is a specific solution. Multiple automatic mailing lists for the troop, leaders, patrols, etc. Automated emailings that go out regularly with auto-generated newsletters. Roster management. Scouting targetted features for managing files, photos and many other features.

Works much better now. It must have been re-engineered.