fred8033

scouts-a-lot: "As an adult involved in all three levels I welcome it. I cannot tell you the # of times I have said the wrong words and looked foolish!" Been there. Screwed it up too. LOL. twocubdad: "If you were going to design a system whereby half-way through the program you winnowed the membership by half, you couldn't come up with much better than the current Crossover baloney." Fully agree. I hope a one oath is just a start. I can't say the number of times I've been sad when families leave near the end of cub scouts without really understanding that Boy Scouts is a much different and much more dynamic program. Scouts and families in their 4th / 5th year of Cub Scouts are ready for more. But they just see the Tiger / Wolf / Bear program. They don't see the youth leadership and fun program of Boy Scouts. As part of smoothing out the relationship between Cubs, Boy Scouts and Venturing, I'd like to see Webelos treated more like a 4th step. Bring all the programs closer together, but keep treating Webelos as a transitional program that prepares Cubs for Boy Scouts. Right now, Webelos is treated separately ... somewhat. You hear it at times that Webelos are not Cub Scouts. But then they get registered with the pack and meet with the pack. I'd just like to see a stronger separation between Cub Scouts and Webelos. One possible change is that instead of having Webelos meet with the pack, have the Webelos meet with the troop. Keep a Webelos den leader. Grow the use of the "denner". Have Webelos working on functional skills they can use when they become Boy Scouts. Have them see the older boys in action. Then in Feb of 5th grade, they graduate from Webelos into full members of the troop. With that one change, I think you would retain many more scouts and develop a strong Boy Scout program. I'm going to spin this off as a thread. But even then smooth out the transition between all four programs, Cub Scouts, Webelos, Boy Scouts and Venturing. ... Of course this is all just "supposing" that change is coming. We all hope the future will bring improvements. But who knows....(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I always viewed this as oxymoronic. If your an Eagle scout, you protest by returning your Eagle badge. If your a scout, you protest by dropping out. So then at that point, your not a scout. So then as a non-scouter, you protest by putting on a scout shirt. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

Guessing... Sitting, 2nd from right. Elbert K. Fretwell??? Succeeded West as Chief Scout in 1943.http://www.willard.lib.mi.us/historical/bcphotos/individuals/h06_1913.htm

I'm sad for your difficult situation. My apologies but it is difficult to be able to comment on what your describing. Your description reflects that your very affected. And it's difficult to know what's going on. My only comment is that your son's time in scouting is short. It might not seem that way but it is. If you don't see a quick solution, move on. The most important thing is that your son has a positive learning and growing experience. If the troop leadership dynamic hurting that experience, move on. If anything, invite your son's friends to join you in the troop you move into.

Abel Magwitch wrote: "Quite the double standard don't you think?" Not really. It's part of working in a multi-cultural society. When we work in our own private groups, we can express our own beliefs. When we work as part of public / governmental groups, we have to follow a different set of rules. That's life.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

For young adults ... it's good to leave the nest. Even the scouting nest. Get out. Experience life. First learned that years ago from watching the 1970s TV series The Paper Chase. Got to admit though, I agree with it. And I've done it several times moving coast-to-coast for years at a time until finally getting married and having kids. There's something about cutting the umbilacal cord. Later, you can return to scouting fresh with more experience. Then again, if you stay in as an adult, that's fine too. Each person experiences his own path. For youth though, give'em adventure, responsibility, friendship, good experiences and respect. Some will stay. Some won't. Just be happy with eagle scout you have.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I hope Northern Star gets can make their stand and just move on from the silly public debate.

I once was caught up thinking about procedures and policies on this. Then realized too many people say too many different things. Even BSA documentation is confusing at times. So I found a good rule of thumb. Who's putting their name down saying the candidate leader will make a good leader? Look at the adult leader application. Who signs it? From the unit, the committee chair and charter org representative sign it. So they are explicitly and literally approving it. There is no scoutmaster signature line. REMEMBER: No one can make you sign your name indicating you are approving it if you do NOT approve. The rest is just unit politics and procedures. If a unit is smart, key leaders in the unit all are friendly and work together. What you are dealing with is a potential volunteer who doesn't realize how it works. You are also pretty new and just learning what your "responsibility" is. Your key role is making sure the right volunteers are in the right jobs.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Extremely well written and well thought out. http://www.northernstarbsa.org/AboutUs/Leadership/Inclusiveness.aspx

QUESTION - Does anyone know more information about the coming initiatives for a more seamless Cub Scout-Boy Scout-Venturing program? Is there something summarizing this or talking about what's being looked into?

This seems very easy to accomplish because the Boy Scouts use the "Scout Oath and Law". It doesn't have "Boy" in the title, in the oath or in the law. The Cub Scout oath refers to Akela which is a reference to a cute story and lend to use by Boy Scouts or Venturers. The Venturer Oath sounds like something Superman would say: "truth, justice and the american way". I think the Scout Oath and Law are ready as is for adoption.

I like the idea and would very much welcome the change. - Cub promise seams like a washed out version of the boy scout oath. The only meaningful words are the words that are also in the Boy Scout oath. "do my best" "duty to God and my country." "To help other people". As for "Law of the Pack", most people don't follow the jungle story theme and it's nothing specific. But the Boy Scout Oath is directly applicable and easy to understand. And it leads directly into the Scout Law. - I myself can easily recite the boy scout oath and law. But after 12 years in cub scouts, I still stumble over the cub scout promise. - Many cub scout leader were boy scouts and still remember the boy scout oath. They don't remember the cub scout promise. - For scouts themselves... ---- Most Boy Scouts learn the Boy Scout oath and law by heart. We see value in that. It's something useful to remember their whole lives. Something to live by. ---- Few cubs remember the Cub SCout promise thru one meeting and I've yet to see one that remembers it from when they were cubs. - I like the idea of starting young young kids thinking about the terms "honor" and values such as trustworthy, loyal, etc. - I've never cared for installing the Jungle Book story in a promise. I'm okay structuring the program around it. But I'd rather not see it in the promise.

I'm okay with the moral equivalence here. Most smokers and overweight people readily admit that it's bad, wrong and a poor example. They'd like to change. So if we continue that ....

Scout shop want a special clearance to sell a 4XL to a scout leader. Not for me. They said anyone purchasing that need to get authorization to purchase them.

BSA24 - Your just being hateful now. All smokers know smoking is bad for them. Most want to quit. I've only met a few who advocate smoking and it's always advocating smoking pot. Same with those overweight. They know the extra weight is bad for them and it affects their whole life. Essentially, no one advocates smoking or weighing too much. No one would suggest we teach being overweight and/or smoking as a healthy positive moral attribute. It's not good for them and they would prefer to be otherwise. But, BSA has already moved in your proposed direction. Weight limits at high adventures. Needing doctor slips at scout shopts to purchase uniforms over a certain size. Designated smoking spots at camp located far away from the scouts. So perhaps your proposal isn't so far fetched.

I've used Google sites, Google Calendar, Google Docs, etc. They are good free tools, but they are flaky and generic. Some Google spreadsheet commands just don't work and other commands fail in different modes. Google docs has gone thru cycles where parts just doesn't work for a few weeks at a time. At this point, I have a hard time depending on them. They are good tools for free. And Google sites seems pretty good. For $99 per year, SOAROL.com is a specific solution. Multiple automatic mailing lists for the troop, leaders, patrols, etc. Automated emailings that go out regularly with auto-generated newsletters. Roster management. Scouting targetted features for managing files, photos and many other features.

Works much better now. It must have been re-engineered.

A good DE is humble. A good DE is more concerned about doing what's right than making a quota. .... DE is a schizoid role that, IMHO, is a no-win situation. Best a DE can do is move to the next position without getting too damanged. The issue is that the DE has conflicting roles. ---- From council view, a good DE creates more troops, recruits more scouts, raises more money, sells more popcorn and gets all paperwork submitted on time. ---- From a volunter view, a good DE is your friend, wanting to help and is truely concerned about helping you be successful. And they follow up as best they can without over promising or underfulfilling. The trouble is that to serve the council, DEs can be easily tempted to give bad advice to the volunteers they serve. A few of my favorites: Your pack charter org should start their own troop too. Popcorn is a great money earner becaue you earn free rank advancements. Let's talk about spring cub scout recruitment. Another problem is there is no performance metric for helping units. The council has no idea if our DE has helped us or not. If anything, the more a DE helps us, the more a DE is distracted from the performance review goals set for him by the council. .... I've worked with six or seven DEs. All of them got it ... except one ... and I came to dread that DE.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Correction. Now it has a printable calendar. Really nice. I'm pretty excited. I have three units to get that have annual planning sessions pretty quick here. http://www.soarol.com

Great news. Our scouting web vendor just released an updated that includes a printable calendar. Go to their site and try their demo. Pretty nice. FYI - The demo site doesn't yet have the printable calendar view yet. Still nice demo. http://www.mytroop.us/features.html

I learned early on that the best interaction a scoutmaster with scouts and especially the SPL is thru questions. What's the plan? Where's the duty roster and schedule? When is the next event? Why did you assign ### to ###? How did that work for you? Is there anything you need? And my favorite question of all time ... Where's the coffee and cribbage board?

accu40 ... great point. dennism manipulated the situation to make a point. The hike was not going great for the younger scouts. So dennism forced a failed buddy check using his own son. Unfortunately, it back fired on him. It does NOT excuse another ASM losing his temper. Period. But intentionally making a scout effort fail is just not cool. It's like when getting ready to leave camp and the scouts are walking a patrol line to look for trash. After they pass, an ASM throws trash on the ground in a few places. If not caught, maybe it's a learning situation. If caught, some of those scouts are going to be pretty pissed off and won't trust you again. Heck, I've seen adults use tricks like that. Pisses me off too. Then on the car ride home my son has asked me "Did ### throw trash on the ground?" I can't lie and say no. But if I dance around it, my son knows it's true. Correct bad situations. Use outings and the normal course of events to teach. But any manipulation can easily back fire and is a bad leadership style to teach. IMHO, manipulation is essentially a form of lying.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

On long hikes, have the slowest person take the lead. That's the only way they get rest. The faster scouts will find things to talk about or look at or keep themselves busy. Otherwise, it's not manageable. An adult losing their temper and getting physical with anyone is not acceptable. If it's once, you can attribute it to stress. If it's a pattern, things need to change. It's NOT a good example for the scouts. That's the number one role of the adults. To set an example. Your troop also sets an example by how they respond. The scouts see what happens and they see how the troop responds. What lessons will they take away for life? You also set an example for your own son by how you respond to this. What lesson do you want him to learn? What do you want him to think about his father? Our troop had an adult repeatedly use attitude and loud voice to passively aggressively affect things. I've had to take scouts asside and let them know it's not acceptable and it's not their fault. We've taken adults asside to let them know it's not acceptable. Ideally, wish ya luck on making this happen, the ASM who lost it should stand up before the group and apologize and say his behavior is unacceptable. Period. That's what we'd expect from scouts. We should expect the same from adult leaders who set the example for the scouts. ... And ummm... good luck making it happen. (This message has been edited by fred8033)(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Yeah. Never realized that. Female adult leaders in Boy Scouts can be selected for OA. I never thought about the Venturing implications. All I can say is that change is come'in. Slow. Years away maybe. But change is inevitable.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

From what I understand ... BSA doesn't want service projects to be primarily fundraisers because #1 Friends Of Scouting and #2 popcorn sales. That's how BSA finances professionals, camps and much more. If people started donating cash to Eagle projects all the time, they'd feel their good deed was done and then not donate to Friends Of Scouting. Or buy the popcorn which itself is essentially just a donation. It's not that scouts doing fundraiers is bad or there is automatically more value in physical labor. The fundraising restriction is BSA's way to reduce competition for the almighty dollar. (This message has been edited by fred8033)