fred8033

I've used Google sites, Google Calendar, Google Docs, etc. They are good free tools, but they are flaky and generic. Some Google spreadsheet commands just don't work and other commands fail in different modes. Google docs has gone thru cycles where parts just doesn't work for a few weeks at a time. At this point, I have a hard time depending on them. They are good tools for free. And Google sites seems pretty good. For $99 per year, SOAROL.com is a specific solution. Multiple automatic mailing lists for the troop, leaders, patrols, etc. Automated emailings that go out regularly with auto-generated newsletters. Roster management. Scouting targetted features for managing files, photos and many other features.

Works much better now. It must have been re-engineered.

A good DE is humble. A good DE is more concerned about doing what's right than making a quota. .... DE is a schizoid role that, IMHO, is a no-win situation. Best a DE can do is move to the next position without getting too damanged. The issue is that the DE has conflicting roles. ---- From council view, a good DE creates more troops, recruits more scouts, raises more money, sells more popcorn and gets all paperwork submitted on time. ---- From a volunter view, a good DE is your friend, wanting to help and is truely concerned about helping you be successful. And they follow up as best they can without over promising or underfulfilling. The trouble is that to serve the council, DEs can be easily tempted to give bad advice to the volunteers they serve. A few of my favorites: Your pack charter org should start their own troop too. Popcorn is a great money earner becaue you earn free rank advancements. Let's talk about spring cub scout recruitment. Another problem is there is no performance metric for helping units. The council has no idea if our DE has helped us or not. If anything, the more a DE helps us, the more a DE is distracted from the performance review goals set for him by the council. .... I've worked with six or seven DEs. All of them got it ... except one ... and I came to dread that DE.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Correction. Now it has a printable calendar. Really nice. I'm pretty excited. I have three units to get that have annual planning sessions pretty quick here. http://www.soarol.com

Great news. Our scouting web vendor just released an updated that includes a printable calendar. Go to their site and try their demo. Pretty nice. FYI - The demo site doesn't yet have the printable calendar view yet. Still nice demo. http://www.mytroop.us/features.html

I learned early on that the best interaction a scoutmaster with scouts and especially the SPL is thru questions. What's the plan? Where's the duty roster and schedule? When is the next event? Why did you assign ### to ###? How did that work for you? Is there anything you need? And my favorite question of all time ... Where's the coffee and cribbage board?

accu40 ... great point. dennism manipulated the situation to make a point. The hike was not going great for the younger scouts. So dennism forced a failed buddy check using his own son. Unfortunately, it back fired on him. It does NOT excuse another ASM losing his temper. Period. But intentionally making a scout effort fail is just not cool. It's like when getting ready to leave camp and the scouts are walking a patrol line to look for trash. After they pass, an ASM throws trash on the ground in a few places. If not caught, maybe it's a learning situation. If caught, some of those scouts are going to be pretty pissed off and won't trust you again. Heck, I've seen adults use tricks like that. Pisses me off too. Then on the car ride home my son has asked me "Did ### throw trash on the ground?" I can't lie and say no. But if I dance around it, my son knows it's true. Correct bad situations. Use outings and the normal course of events to teach. But any manipulation can easily back fire and is a bad leadership style to teach. IMHO, manipulation is essentially a form of lying.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

On long hikes, have the slowest person take the lead. That's the only way they get rest. The faster scouts will find things to talk about or look at or keep themselves busy. Otherwise, it's not manageable. An adult losing their temper and getting physical with anyone is not acceptable. If it's once, you can attribute it to stress. If it's a pattern, things need to change. It's NOT a good example for the scouts. That's the number one role of the adults. To set an example. Your troop also sets an example by how they respond. The scouts see what happens and they see how the troop responds. What lessons will they take away for life? You also set an example for your own son by how you respond to this. What lesson do you want him to learn? What do you want him to think about his father? Our troop had an adult repeatedly use attitude and loud voice to passively aggressively affect things. I've had to take scouts asside and let them know it's not acceptable and it's not their fault. We've taken adults asside to let them know it's not acceptable. Ideally, wish ya luck on making this happen, the ASM who lost it should stand up before the group and apologize and say his behavior is unacceptable. Period. That's what we'd expect from scouts. We should expect the same from adult leaders who set the example for the scouts. ... And ummm... good luck making it happen. (This message has been edited by fred8033)(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Yeah. Never realized that. Female adult leaders in Boy Scouts can be selected for OA. I never thought about the Venturing implications. All I can say is that change is come'in. Slow. Years away maybe. But change is inevitable.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

From what I understand ... BSA doesn't want service projects to be primarily fundraisers because #1 Friends Of Scouting and #2 popcorn sales. That's how BSA finances professionals, camps and much more. If people started donating cash to Eagle projects all the time, they'd feel their good deed was done and then not donate to Friends Of Scouting. Or buy the popcorn which itself is essentially just a donation. It's not that scouts doing fundraiers is bad or there is automatically more value in physical labor. The fundraising restriction is BSA's way to reduce competition for the almighty dollar. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

Some cool ideas for tents. I really wish we could afford some of these tents. I'd love to get one of those Icelandic tents to have an entire patrol share a tent. On the flip side, I like smaller tent camping because two people can fall asleep fairly quickly. But ten scouts in a room and they are up all night and need to be watched so that the stupidity level doesn't get too high. http://www.blacksofgreenock.co.uk/acatalog/patrol-tents.html http://shop.scouts.org.uk/c-76-group-tents.aspx

Gotta admit, I think Sunday night meetings would work great. And very appropriate for a Sunday. Just think about drying out tents or cleaning up the trailer or other meaningful activities.

I'm betting within five years. It will be as with many things ... fought and protested and the end change will be much ado about nothing. As much as we complain about BSA's backroom old boy's national leadership, that same leadership style could make this an easy change.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

snugharborlabs - Sounds like your troop is working hard. Gotta applaud that. Just focus on giving this scout a good experience so that in the future he naturally leans toward helping others and giving service as part of his personality. That's the important part. As for service projects, we never have trouble with them. - We do a small service project on virtually ever camp out (scout camp, state park, other). The SPL asks if there's a service project the scouts can do. Usually a one hour project or less. - We do a few hours of service for our charter organization once or twice a year. Cleaning the grounds or other. - Many scouts do service at their church, school or other community group.

You are going to get answers all over the board on this. As such, I'd use the basic rule of thumb that if the scout is doing a good deed, then congratulate him and get out of the way. Officially speaking, I'd look at two things from the Guide To Advancement, http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf . GTA 4.2.3.3 Service Projects - Essentially leaves it open to the scoutmaster. The only real key is pre-approval. But even that is scoutmaster perogative. IMHO, a perfect example would be a scout walking up to the SM (or an ASM) and saying "I'm going to work on Timmy's eagle project this weekend. Can I use that for my Star rank service project requirements?". Scout thought ahead and asked. Not going for star rank and looking to hodge podge together service. ... Scoutmaster perogative. Lots of flexibility. Nothing strictly required each individual scout to talk with scoutmaster. Could be group approval too. GTA 9.0.2.10 Fundraising Issues - Says "eagle" projects can't be fundraisers for the sake of raising funds. Okay to raise funds to get materials to work your project. Not okay to raising funds to donate money. Not directly applying to your case, but I think it's an important message. We want the scouts doing something tangible. In your case, I'd be 100% fine with the scouts plans. My only comment is that it seems pretty darn formal process for just a star life servic project. ... That gets to the heart of my response. Star and Life service projects are definitely NOT mini-Eagle service projects. No signatures are needed. No write ups are needed. If your troop wants to do that, I don't see anything officially written saying you can't add as much burocracy as you want. But the emphasis for star and life is doing a good deed. Again ... IMHO ... the best time to discuss service project for the star rank is at the first class scoutmaster conference. Take a moment as part of the scoutmaster encouraging advancement to ask if the scout has ideas what he'll do for service for the next rank. A friendly conversation is enough. ... IMHO. ... Now if you want to get "legalistic" the scout doesn't even need to talk to the scoutmaster. The requirement is "While a #### Scout, take part in service projects totaling at least #### hours of work. These projects must be approved by your Scoutmaster." - So if your SPL arranges with a camp ranger to clear brush for an hour on a weekend camp and your scoutmaster agrees, the time should count. - If a scout has an approved service project, another scout can help out. No official need to talk with the scoutmaster because the project is already approved. ... I think the key points are... - Doing a good deed for others and recognizing that's what we do because we are scouts ... and because we are citizens ... and because we are people of faith ... and because that's one what person does for another. - Giving the scoutmaster a chance to have feedback into the service project ... for safety ... for consideration ... for coordination ... for simple planning. For example, if a scout want's to use his time as an alterboy to count as service, I'd hope he'd talk to the scoutmaster. I know our scoutmaster would count it. But it's really a matter of communication. .... To be blunt and I apologize if I offend, it sounds like your troop is over the top on what's to be done for service projects for star and life. If many troops do this, you can count on two more pages being added to the GTA. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

I would be very interested to understand... Where the tradition of eagle scouts planning their own COH started? Where it started as a separate event from a normal COH? Where it became so much more formal filled pomp than all the other ranks? Our troop usually does separate ECOH planned by the scout family. We had one recently that was just part of the normal troop COH. I much prefer the normal troop COH, planned by the troop and including recognizing the new Eagle scout. I'm not trying to diminish eagle. I'd just rather see it as a troop event.

Scout Oath and Law are all that are needed. To deal with disrespect, bullying and teasing is a matter of knowing the scouts and dealing with issues in a timely way. The Oath and Law spells it out in a very simple way. We had a new scout who pushed those limits this summer. Picking on new scouts. SM, an ASM and me (CC) sat with him at a picnic table on camp and said it was not acceptible. That it was a membership issue. It repeated. We repeated. One the next occurance we indicated the next incident would require notifying his parents. Any incident after and he would be going home. I can't say he was better, but he was much much improved. All we used was scout oath and law. Really all that's needed.

Link failed because I punctuated the sentence with a period. Try it without a period in the URL. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf Page 21.

bnelson44 wrote: "The EBOR is not a job interview, at least it isn't intended to be one." I wish this was published somewhere. Our district EBOR leaders absolutely believe it is to be treated as a job interview. They've used that analysis time and time again. I disagree with that, but that's me. bnelson44 wrote: "If the Scout is walking into the room for a EBOR he should have for all intent and purposes already earned the rank." Fully agree. Scouts earn the rank. We are not hiring them as Eagle scouts. And it's an outlier for a EBOR to not approve a scout. .... As for mock EBORs, I don't see the purpose. Scouts have plenty of practice with BORs for tenderfoot, 2nd class, 1st class, star and life. They also have practice presenting thru their PORs and their eagle service project. A bit of prep time is a great idea, but a mock EBOR is more for the people wanting to inject themselves into the process than to help the eagle candidate. Heck, each EBOR I've been on is different enough that I don't think a mock run would help. Plus the scout has essentially already earned his rank. EBOR is just the last step. Let the EBOR happen as it will. Some are smooth. Others are bumpy. Fine. Let each scout have his own experience. .... I always feel strange when I'm in agreement with Beavah. I think I'll go take an asprin, eh.

funscout - Your quoting the old policies that were updated in 2011 with a more nuanced approach. Check this http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf. See page 21. I don't think BSA encourages an "active" percent, but BSA does allow units to define a reasonable level of involvement. Sorry to hear about your scout that missed Eagle. If it as you wrote, that's just mean. Especially considering how hard scouts work as camp staff and how little under 18 staff get paid. IMHO, camp staff is just slightly more than volunteer work. What a great way to tarnish the scout's experience in scouting. I wish he would have pushed it hard. I bet it would have happened but often 17 year old scouts have other priorities in life with school graduation, work and girl friends. Things like closing out their scouting trail can easily be set aside. Very sad especially when he had everything done. .... Also Beavah had the better answer for code of conduct. Scout oath and law. The rest is how you present, teach and use it.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

It's treating a symptom and not the disease. The troop problems are caused by the program, not the "active" rule used by the troop. The disease is not camping and not having a strong / fun program. I am saying this because you indicated the troop camps three times per year. Scouts invest their time where they get somehting out of it. And rightfully if the troop itself isn't "active", the scouts will find other places to spend their time. IMHO, you want to celebrate that and encourage scouts to explore all opportunities in life. For example, their high school bowling team awards dinner could very easily be more important to them then a troop COH. Just consider they probably have more bowling tournaments and trips than camp outs each year. The advancement requirements have plenty of expectations of being "active". And having a POR requires the scout do something as part of their role. I'd avoid the focus on defining "active" for the scouts because it's blaming the scouts for a troop issue. Also, "active" is difficult to fairly track and enforce. And if your going to have a code of conduct, let the PLC write it and update it. It is a scout run program and they will do a fine job with it. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

Didn't realize the troop was only ten scouts. Though not the smallest I've heard, it's hard to sustain at that size. Until your last comment, I had reversed routed and moved into the attitude to switch to the new startup troop. I do like the idea though of moving the whole troop over to the charter org of the pack that wants to start a unit. It would solve two issues with one action.

bigbovine - Your stuck in a hard situation. If the new troop will be created in any event, then you have a real decision. If it wouldn't be created without your help, let a sleeping dog lie. Beavah's right about numbers. Our city has seven troops and seven packs. Recruitment is a real issue. Hard feelings occur between units at recruitment time. Not much fun. Some years troops get enough new scouts. Other years they get almost zero. Not fun. I look forward to the one-unit concept being piloted in our council in the coming year. I hope to learn more about it soon. If the cub scout numbers just aren't there, hopefully someone puts an end to creating the new troop. ... The issue I have not seen mentioned is your son's experience. It was raised to consider what they want. But what about their new experience? It would definitely be different than what it would have been in the existing troop. What new opportunities would they gain and what would they lose? The key is that a boy's time in Boy Scouts is relatively short, four to seven years. And with the first three years being the most influenial as each of the first three years tend to be a different type of experience. If you start a new troop, what will their new experience be? Any friends to look forward to sharing a tent with other than their own brother? Enough boys their own age to do things with? Or are they one or two of the only boys in their age range? They might help start a new troop, but you would be separating them from a solid scouting experience into a new program that will take time to get off the ground and in which they won't have similar age friends. That's important as it affects if they stay in Boy Scouts for five or seven years. Unless your going to recruit new members from the existing troop which I would NOT do because it creates hard feelings. ... Another consideration is the personality of the troop. Odds are people want the existing troop to continue with a personality similar to what it has now. What is expected of the other troop? Will everyone be on the same page? Same idea and values? Same emphasis? If not, run away fast. ... Your in a hard situation. I sympathize with your wanting a near-by troop aligned with your pack and with wanting a smooth transition for your next son. If you stay with the existing troop, your next son could end up transitioning to the far-away troop without any friends. If you switch troops, I assume your sons will switch you and then they lose out on their existing friends. I wish you the best either way you go. Neither choice is perfect.

CPMom wrote: "Only one problem: He was the only adult leader in their campsite. Yeah, ummmm... That's not a little problem. Each unit, provisional or not, should have at least two leaders. This is a youth protection issue. .... Provisional units are a gamble. You need to start with a flexible, outgoing scout that can easily build friendships and can see good in others. Don't send a scout that can get easily frustrated or isn't that flexible. Don't send a scout that can be challenge. After that, it really depends on the combination of scout, unit leaders and other scouts. They might mix or might not mix. It really depends. I know several really good scouts that went on a jamboree only to be threatened several times by the adults with punishments. I know another scout that was positive and outgoing but felt like he was on the outside of a group of scouts that knew each other. They were a click and not looking for new temporary scouts to join them. Provisional units are a gamble.

Scout leader on KP - Make sure one of the scout leaders is on each KP duty roster and ideally sitting on each dining hall table. By doing that, they can make sure each scout gets a fair share of the food that's set out.