fred8033

"active user number" - meaningless data. Press refresh 10 times and it increases by at least ten. Poor algorithm for deciding who's active.

Beavah, Often your advice is excellent. Often, debatable. But your advice in this thread is indefensible. It scares me that a BSA registered leader says this. It scares me that people might listen to you. And don't for a second cloak your advice and fallacious arguments in being Christian or doing a good deed. It is NOT a personal decision. We MUST follow BSA youth protection policies. No one-on-one contact is a key barrier to abuse. Once you have signed your BSA leader application, that rule applies between you and scouts whether you are in a uniform or not; whether it is before, during or after a meeting. As long as you are a registered leader, it applies 24 hours a day. As long as I'm a registered leader, I'm going to apply that rule to my personal life too. I don't let youth in my house unless my wife or my sons are there. Even then, I usually don't let kids play in my house unless my wife is there too. For myself, I'm as concerned with the perception as the reality. ... Now I'm 100% serious about the following statements. If you are a registered leader (or parent) in my scouting units, you're going to know youth protection expectations. If you are a registered leader (or parent at a scouting event), in any unit, I'm going to expect your behavior, decisions and actions are with-in BSA youth protection boundaries. If you regularly skirt any of the YP guidelines, I'm going to look suspiciously on it. I'll be forced to question whether you are an abuser. At best, I'll know you don't take your commitments seriously. At worst, you are now a red flag that I'll be watching. If, as in the thread example, you regularly drive a non-related youth to and from scout meetings, I may or may not confront you on it ... depending on our relationship. But if it continued, I would contact the council Scout Executive both on the phone and in writing to document our conversation providing your name, the scout's name and the situation. I pray that all leaders and knowledgeable parents would do the same. Our BSA adult leader application says: "Notify your Scout executive of this report, or of any violation of BSAs Youth Protection policies, so that he or she may take appropriate action for the safety of our Scouts, make appropriate notifications, and follow up with investigating agencies." ... It's not a personal choice. You are a risk if you violate BSA youth protection. ... Beavah - The simple fact that you treat this as a personal decision does put a red flag in my head about you. I'm sorry but it does. I'm aghast at the advice and it makes me question what else could be going on. And that's a direct result of your advice on youth protection. Again, I apologize. But you have thrown up a huge red flag. If you actually practice what youre preaching, I'd end up calling the scout exec to protect myself, to protect the charter org and most importantly to protect the scouts. ... We had a local SM who repeatedly did minor YP violations, small things that for YEARS raised eyebrows. But nothing to the extent that triggered a phone call. Turns out he was privately abusing selected scouts for YEARS. Grooming them and eventually abusing them. I'm pissed at the SM. I'm sad the scouts didn't say anything. But I'm really, really angry at the ASMs, other leaders and parents who wondered but never did anything. I encourage everyone to hold each other accountable and to lower the bar for when you'd call the Scout Executive with concerns.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

???? Big time virus infection?

SeattlePioneer wrote: "You return to your chartered organization after an outing. Parents stop by to pick up their Scout. One Scout is left over --- no parent has appeared to pick him up and you have no contact with the parent. What would you do? " ... Plan to have another of the leaders have his scouts picked up there too. Or have one of the parents wait with you until the last scout is picked up. .... Eagle92 wrote: Dad needing tarp situation ... No youth protection violation. That's one reason why we need two leaders on a camp out. One reason is to prevent abuse. Another reason is to provide coverage during hard situations. .... Eagle92 wrote: "One of our staffers fell and broke his arm. I had to drive him to the hospital. I put him in the backseat while I drove." ... I don't think anyone would complain about that violation. When we do ER runs, we always have had two adults in the car. But some understanding can be had in these situations. .... Eagle92 wrote: I know of one case where a leader is renting a room from another leader, essentially living with the family. They are in same troop, how to handle transport if one dad is working late and the leader renting needs to bring the Scout to the meeting?" ... Ya know some examples just get too weird and creepy. I'm sure such examples happen. I think I'd want to ask for clarification on how to handle such a situation.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I'm disgusted. Now I can't pretend to be 100% perfect. I've had two cases where my sons were not with me when we needed drivers to drive kids home. In one case, I dropped two kids off at one scouts home and the other scout's parents picked him up from there. In the other case, I dropped off the youngest scouts first and dropped the oldest scout last. But depending on "who", I may not have risked that as I want to protect myself as much as the scouts. ... With that confession though, I get really scared when I hear excuses and tricks to game the system: ---- Waiting to put on the uniform when at the meeting. ---- Driving to the meeting isn't officially part of scouting. ---- Getting a permission note from the parents The rules are very clear. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss01.aspx#e Of course, edge cases exist to test any rule. But you don't "plan" to violate the youth protection rules because it's too hard. ... Maybe any specific individual is or is not an abuser. That's not really the issue. And you can't justify any plan because the scout will be "safe" with you or you think they will be safe with someone else. The issue is that these rules are in place to protect the youth. We set an example so that parents and others know what to expect and hopefully to prevent abuse by others. We set an example that protects our scouts. The trouble is most abusers also easily justify their actions. Bringing the kid to a game. Driving him home. Having him over to work on a project. Being his only ride to scout meetings. While edge cases exist, I am disgusted that anyone would plan to game the system because it's not practical. ... If you have a scout that can't get to meetings and you feel so strongly about driving him, then contact your council risk manager or scout executive to get a waiver on the rule. Until then ... - If you want to be a good respected leader that does the right thing, you work with-in the rules. If that means a scout misses meetings or does not earn Eagle, that's the right solution. - If you want to do a really good deed, you find a way to bring the scout to the meeting and still work within the rules. Your wife rides with you. Find another scout to join so you are driving two. Coordinate other rides. Just don't ever pat yourself on the back for what you accomplish by choosing to violate youth protection rules. .... As for driving or hikes, it's the one-on-one rule that applies. Two deep for trips and outings. A hike though is just part of a larger event. One-on-one seems fine there and within the rules.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

BSA doesn't block other organizations from forming. But they do protect their trademark property ... as any company does. So if you want to do similar things under different rules, just don't call yourself Boy Scouts or generally any combination of Scout and Boy. Try other names like YMCA, Outward Bound, 4H, Camp Fire, Woodcraft ####, Awana, Rangers, Young Pioneers, Pathfinders or one of many other organizations.

Cool. Thanks.

Just curious what happened to the forums over the weekend. I'd post this in the forum admin site, but I don't have permission there.

Kudu... Thanks. Your site and links are very interesting. I will definitely use them as a reference to think and learn. "Traditional Scouting" is misleading. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Scouting It is not "BSA" scouting and it is seems defined by the whim of those talking about it. But then again, I forget that everyone on this site does not necessarily promote BSA scouting. "Experts" on this site are often promoting another scouting program or vision. When I hear "Traditional Scouting", I think Cubs, Boy Scouts and Venturing without Learning For LIfe. Others hear something different. The problem I have is that "Traditional Scouting" advice often reflects mixed materials and conflicting sources. A good example is how to select a patrol leader. I can't find BP's answer. Green Bar Bill (who I never met and have only read tangentially), encouraged the ideal that patrols elect their patrol leader ... (but then you don't necessarily have the best leader or most skilled.) ... BUT Green Bar Bill allowed the SM to appoint if it's a really new patrol. But that conflicts with BSA promoting Troop Guides to mentor new scouts and new patrols. .. so in the end ... As I only have a fully document BSA program, I promote use of troop guides and let the scouts elect their patrol leader immediately. As I don't have a fully documented Green Bar Bill scouting program, I only use his writings for reflection. It might be different if I could find a "current" set of "Traditional Scouting" program materials to use. But they don't exist. Correct me if I'm wrong ... please ... But even if they did exist, I signed up to represent the BSA program, not something different that I can't find documented. ... This reminds me of the UK scouting situation. The UK has 17+ scouting groups which are members of six or more different "world" scouting organizations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_and_Guiding_in_the_United_Kingdom And "Traditional Scouting" (started in 1970) refers to Baden-Powell Scouting / Pathfinder scouting. Which is not the main scouting organizations in the UK. And not the main scouting org in US. ... I can fully appreciate the views and goals of "Traditional Scouting". I like alot of it. I just have trouble implementing it as it's not documented and it's not the program I'm signed up to present.

I apologize. I did not mean to start a debate on how to structure patrols. We've been there and done that. With that said ... Kudu wrote: "Still, the goal of Traditional Scouting is to have the Troop's most mature Scouts serve as Patrol Leaders for as long as they are the best natural leaders." I always fear when people talk of "tradition". Usually, "tradition" reflects unit or individual traditions that are not defendable by what BSA currently publishes and often not even what BSA published in the past. "Tradition" often means what some units do but not all units. "Tradition" almost never means official or documented. Most importantly, "tradition" often means what was done in the past and is no longer done. I recognize there are multiple ways to structure patrols. BUT, it's misleading to say "Traditional Scouting" says to use senior scouts as patrol leaders. BSA identifies new scout and regular patrols. BSA identifies troop guides as "senior scouts" who mentor the new scout patrol and the new scout patrol leader. BSA says "An older, experienced Scout often is assigned as a troop guide to help the new-Scout patrol through the challenges of troop membership. An assistant Scoutmaster should also assist the new-Scout patrol to ensure that each Scout has every opportunity to succeed right from the start." http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/PatrolLeader.aspx The thing that I try to remember is that leadership roles exist to practice leadership. BSA says in "Introduction to Leadership Skills for Troops", page 21: "Just as adult leaders must step back and enable Scout leaders to lead the troop, senior Scout leaders must work with, train, and encourage less-senior Scout leaders in the troop to fulfill their roles and practice their own leadership skills." (Google "BSA PDF Introduction to leadership skills for troops") ... I've never found anything from BSA that says to use senior scouts as patrol leaders. Seriously, I'd really like to find something published by BSA now ... (or in the past) ... that says to use senior scouts as patrol leaders for less experienced scouts.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Side note ... I don't think that you need an older scout to be an effective PL. Older PLs have an advantage because they are older, but I also think it's a hinderance to them and their patrol mates because they don't experience leading their piers. IMHO, the PL's that learn the most and the patrols that grow the most are the same-age patrols. But that's me. I know others have other opinions.

It's hard to advise without having been there. BUT ... -------------------------- DE-ESCALATE - The best SMs de-escalate situations. It's not good to take a relatively minor incident and formalize it into a corrective action. This sounds perfect for an informal sit down and chat. -------------------------- Treat as a grain of salt the comments of other ASMs / parents. Act on what you see and hear. Use their comments to alert you, but act on what you are sure happened. Way too often, I've found others misunderstood or only saw part ... OR are trying too hard to convince me of something. -------------------------- BE TIMELY - Digging up the past can do more damage. It's been weeks since it happened. By now, those patrol members have probably moved past that specific incident or have found a way to deal with it or are dealing with another situation. Plus, this sounds like a relatively minor incident. I'd watch and wait for something fresh to correct. -------------------------- DON'T EVER WAIT FOR AN SMC - SMC is for taking stock of advancement, encouraging and building a relationship. I would never prepare discipline for a SMC. If you feel need to address it, do it timely and way before a SMC. Maybe they need to wait a month for advancement. That's a judgement call. Just don't surprise a scout during a SMC with it. -------------------------- SCOUT SPIRIT - Take a whole scout view. Individuals regularly fail at specific times and can look bad. But if overall, they are okay, I would NOT make a big big issue of it. Plus, scout spirit is best decided as a joint decision with the scout. I'd avoid "guilting" the scout too much on this. Keep it to how do we treat others. How did the scout oath and law apply to the incident. AND how should we have acted in the situation. I'd also avoid the "I tell you when I think your ready to advance." A very important concept is that scouts control their own advancement. If it's 30 days, say it's 30 days. Don't leave the scout hanging on a whim. -------------------------- REFLECT ON THE INCIDENT ... active listening --- Do the scouts feel ownership of their patrol? You said it was their first time together. --- Were the scouts "hurting" / "resentful" from some other "dis" or something beyond their power? --- Why were the scouts acting out? --- Were they just testing limits? Scouts and adults do this all the time. -------------------------- SCOUT LAW says a scout is obedient. It does NOT say a scout is submissive and we don't want our scouts to be submissive. I say this because sometimes people want things to change without knowing how to speak up. Sometimes people see injustice without knowing how to correct it. Sometimes people are promised one thing and given another and then don't know how to pursue what was promised. Such people can often look like they are acting out. Teach these scouts the right way, time and place to change things. It is a valuable skill to have their whole lives. -------------------------- From what I understand so far, I'd treat this more as a scoutmaster minute opportunity. How do we treat others? The virtue of being a good follower. A quick roleplay or a quick discussion. Then, I'd leave it and watch how people act.

No

Well.... We had our annual fall join scouting night. We are a very healthy pack who has recruited 20+ cubs each year. The school district changed their policy this year to not send home flyers with the kids. Last year, we could send one home. Now, none. The result, five new cubs. Pack across town got seven new cubs versus 20+ last year. If this continues, I'm not sure our pack will be around in five years.

.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I've been reading this thread, but fairly silent as I've been traveling without a good keyboard. ... I'm in this Forum for strong, good debate; to learn and to get to understand the opinions of other scouts and to hopefully share my perspective too. I fully agree with raising and debating virtually any topic. In the original thread, I tried not to insult as much as to raise my main frustration. I fully believe Merlyn LeRoy / Brian Westley is not here to "participate". He's here to "manipulate". To advance his agenda. ** And *** his agenda is advanced by damaging discussion this forum. He had a chance to take a slap at scouting and he did it again. Did he have an excuse? Sure. LA times published another article. Not much new in it. Merlyn pointing out the news article was not so much about communicating yet another bad news article. It was more keeping an old worn out subject top on the posting list in this Forum. Merlyn / Brian has been very prolific on this topic for 16 years: Google groups ... Newspapers ... Yahoo groups ... original news groups ... "UK" forums ... Wikipedia posts ... wordpress ... newspapers ... topica ... patheos ... Food discussion forums

My experience is that friendships are priority #1 to most kids. I'd find a way to leverage it and not fight it. If they are going to spend time together anyway, let them be a patrol ... if that's what they want. http://scoutingmagazine.org/2012/04/how-scouts-friendships-strengthen-patrols/

Merlyn_LeRoy - Yeah, shame on you. You just want to create ugly hatred. You know that too. Because that hate helps your goals. You just want to hide behind the dirt. That's shameful.

Beavah - Your right and everyone understands what your writing. The problem is that it doesn't help Merlyn. He has a political agenda and his agenda is served by muck raking. Stirring hatred and bigotry. It always says alot for an agenda when those advocating for it do it by damaging others. Merlyn - Shame on you.

Merln, Honestly - What's your goal? Do you want BSA's youth protection standards to change? Here they are. What do you want different? http://www.scouting.org/Training/YouthProtection.aspx I honestly think your working a separate political agenda by stiring hatred using old news against many many very good volunteers. Your demeaning others using one old topic in the hope to pursue a totally separate topic. That's just not intellectually honest. And I think that's low. You can disagree with a belief or a policy without belittling or causing hatred against so may well meaning and hard working volunteers. Shame on you.

$40 per year, every year. Covers registration, boy's life magazine and some pack costs. Scouts get next rank book in May. New scouts buy their own book when they join. The majority of the budget is covered by our fundraiser.

I've seen packs handle it two ways. - Charge full year dues with the reasoning that the pack is paying for more advancements and recognition for the graduating Webelos. - Charge half year dues with the reasoning that advancement cost is spread out over time. Either is fine. Just find your reasoning and be consistent over time. My issue is that 2nd year webelos tend to be the most expensive rank; followed by 1st year webelos. So by charging partial year dues, you are having lower ranks cover the cost of the webelos advancements. Generally it would equal out over time EXCEPT that lots of cubs drop out before webelos. So in a way, it's like a pyramid scheme. I prefer charging full dues. Keeps it simple. If parents gripe, let them pay for their own advancements and recognition. I prefer keeping dues low, less then $50. I prefer not routing any funds to the troops. Money was earned during and for cub scouts. I'd rather see it kept with the unit earning the money. ... QUESTION - If you would charge less for 2nd year Webelos because they are gone for half the year and the pack doesn't recharter them ... Would you charge Tigers more because you have to register them in the fall and again six months later? I just think it's hard to justify more or less because of time frame. Keep it simple and charge everyone the same.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Northern Star now has a new page. The old "inclusiveness" page re-routes to this one. I'm sad that Northern Star was pushed to change their policy. BUT ... I'm not sure if the policy was changed as much as re-written to be not so in-your-face defiant. http://www.northernstarbsa.org/aboutus/leadership/leadership_standards.aspx(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I also help on the district level and have helped put a few event budgets together. Not a huge number, but a few. I'm not an author of the budget, but I've helped. They are approved by the council and require a X percent mark-up to cover when other events (other districts or council) over-run their budgets. A good example is an event that purchased several thousand extra patches that they couldn't use. The theory is that the events will wash out in the long run. A few comments - Districts can buy supplies that can be used later such as flags, poles, equipment but usually only if used as part of the event that charged the fees. - Districts don't process or manage money. - Districts don't have a bank account and are not a separate financial entity. - Every event I've seen has checks written to the council. - Councils re-imburse districts per the approved budget - Districts can't keep a slush fund. To get event money out of the council, you need a receipt and an expense report. - Our DE has always been willing to make copies at the council office. We even have OfficeMax (Depot??) to make copies for us on the council budget. - The challenge is that district volunteers don't always have time to get to the DE or the right OfficeMax(Depot??) to make copies. - Not all districts are equal. One district might have a great "free" place to hold district events / camp outs. Another has to rent council property at $5 per person and $$$ for each and every building / facility being used. - Making copies isn't the issue. - It's how to pay for the more costly things. $25 for an engraved District Award Of Merit. Other awards and thank-you items. It's not unusually to spend $150 to $200 annually on district level awards / recognition / thank yous. - In the past, the district pays for awards by charging for the district dinner and having a council approved budget for that dinner. The dinner fee includes cost to cover the awards. - But district dinners are not really a sustainable model anymore. Fee people want yet another event. Ends up having 20 to 30 "paying" attendees. Food is $10 per person. $10 donation per person for awards. That makes the district dinner cost is $20 to $25 per person for food that is just average.

I've been in this debate for at least the last five years. Districts have costs but no budget!!!! If you have a camporee, the profit goes to the council. The district can't carry profit for later use. As already discussed --- Crafts, reproductions, etc Other Costs --- District awards (District Award of Merit, Distinguished Unit scouter, plaques, etc.) --- Supplies (napkins, plates, etc) The result is that many volunteers donate both their time and their money. (This message has been edited by fred8033)