fred8033

Kudu... Thanks. Your site and links are very interesting. I will definitely use them as a reference to think and learn. "Traditional Scouting" is misleading. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Scouting It is not "BSA" scouting and it is seems defined by the whim of those talking about it. But then again, I forget that everyone on this site does not necessarily promote BSA scouting. "Experts" on this site are often promoting another scouting program or vision. When I hear "Traditional Scouting", I think Cubs, Boy Scouts and Venturing without Learning For LIfe. Others hear something different. The problem I have is that "Traditional Scouting" advice often reflects mixed materials and conflicting sources. A good example is how to select a patrol leader. I can't find BP's answer. Green Bar Bill (who I never met and have only read tangentially), encouraged the ideal that patrols elect their patrol leader ... (but then you don't necessarily have the best leader or most skilled.) ... BUT Green Bar Bill allowed the SM to appoint if it's a really new patrol. But that conflicts with BSA promoting Troop Guides to mentor new scouts and new patrols. .. so in the end ... As I only have a fully document BSA program, I promote use of troop guides and let the scouts elect their patrol leader immediately. As I don't have a fully documented Green Bar Bill scouting program, I only use his writings for reflection. It might be different if I could find a "current" set of "Traditional Scouting" program materials to use. But they don't exist. Correct me if I'm wrong ... please ... But even if they did exist, I signed up to represent the BSA program, not something different that I can't find documented. ... This reminds me of the UK scouting situation. The UK has 17+ scouting groups which are members of six or more different "world" scouting organizations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_and_Guiding_in_the_United_Kingdom And "Traditional Scouting" (started in 1970) refers to Baden-Powell Scouting / Pathfinder scouting. Which is not the main scouting organizations in the UK. And not the main scouting org in US. ... I can fully appreciate the views and goals of "Traditional Scouting". I like alot of it. I just have trouble implementing it as it's not documented and it's not the program I'm signed up to present.

I apologize. I did not mean to start a debate on how to structure patrols. We've been there and done that. With that said ... Kudu wrote: "Still, the goal of Traditional Scouting is to have the Troop's most mature Scouts serve as Patrol Leaders for as long as they are the best natural leaders." I always fear when people talk of "tradition". Usually, "tradition" reflects unit or individual traditions that are not defendable by what BSA currently publishes and often not even what BSA published in the past. "Tradition" often means what some units do but not all units. "Tradition" almost never means official or documented. Most importantly, "tradition" often means what was done in the past and is no longer done. I recognize there are multiple ways to structure patrols. BUT, it's misleading to say "Traditional Scouting" says to use senior scouts as patrol leaders. BSA identifies new scout and regular patrols. BSA identifies troop guides as "senior scouts" who mentor the new scout patrol and the new scout patrol leader. BSA says "An older, experienced Scout often is assigned as a troop guide to help the new-Scout patrol through the challenges of troop membership. An assistant Scoutmaster should also assist the new-Scout patrol to ensure that each Scout has every opportunity to succeed right from the start." http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/PatrolLeader.aspx The thing that I try to remember is that leadership roles exist to practice leadership. BSA says in "Introduction to Leadership Skills for Troops", page 21: "Just as adult leaders must step back and enable Scout leaders to lead the troop, senior Scout leaders must work with, train, and encourage less-senior Scout leaders in the troop to fulfill their roles and practice their own leadership skills." (Google "BSA PDF Introduction to leadership skills for troops") ... I've never found anything from BSA that says to use senior scouts as patrol leaders. Seriously, I'd really like to find something published by BSA now ... (or in the past) ... that says to use senior scouts as patrol leaders for less experienced scouts.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Side note ... I don't think that you need an older scout to be an effective PL. Older PLs have an advantage because they are older, but I also think it's a hinderance to them and their patrol mates because they don't experience leading their piers. IMHO, the PL's that learn the most and the patrols that grow the most are the same-age patrols. But that's me. I know others have other opinions.

It's hard to advise without having been there. BUT ... -------------------------- DE-ESCALATE - The best SMs de-escalate situations. It's not good to take a relatively minor incident and formalize it into a corrective action. This sounds perfect for an informal sit down and chat. -------------------------- Treat as a grain of salt the comments of other ASMs / parents. Act on what you see and hear. Use their comments to alert you, but act on what you are sure happened. Way too often, I've found others misunderstood or only saw part ... OR are trying too hard to convince me of something. -------------------------- BE TIMELY - Digging up the past can do more damage. It's been weeks since it happened. By now, those patrol members have probably moved past that specific incident or have found a way to deal with it or are dealing with another situation. Plus, this sounds like a relatively minor incident. I'd watch and wait for something fresh to correct. -------------------------- DON'T EVER WAIT FOR AN SMC - SMC is for taking stock of advancement, encouraging and building a relationship. I would never prepare discipline for a SMC. If you feel need to address it, do it timely and way before a SMC. Maybe they need to wait a month for advancement. That's a judgement call. Just don't surprise a scout during a SMC with it. -------------------------- SCOUT SPIRIT - Take a whole scout view. Individuals regularly fail at specific times and can look bad. But if overall, they are okay, I would NOT make a big big issue of it. Plus, scout spirit is best decided as a joint decision with the scout. I'd avoid "guilting" the scout too much on this. Keep it to how do we treat others. How did the scout oath and law apply to the incident. AND how should we have acted in the situation. I'd also avoid the "I tell you when I think your ready to advance." A very important concept is that scouts control their own advancement. If it's 30 days, say it's 30 days. Don't leave the scout hanging on a whim. -------------------------- REFLECT ON THE INCIDENT ... active listening --- Do the scouts feel ownership of their patrol? You said it was their first time together. --- Were the scouts "hurting" / "resentful" from some other "dis" or something beyond their power? --- Why were the scouts acting out? --- Were they just testing limits? Scouts and adults do this all the time. -------------------------- SCOUT LAW says a scout is obedient. It does NOT say a scout is submissive and we don't want our scouts to be submissive. I say this because sometimes people want things to change without knowing how to speak up. Sometimes people see injustice without knowing how to correct it. Sometimes people are promised one thing and given another and then don't know how to pursue what was promised. Such people can often look like they are acting out. Teach these scouts the right way, time and place to change things. It is a valuable skill to have their whole lives. -------------------------- From what I understand so far, I'd treat this more as a scoutmaster minute opportunity. How do we treat others? The virtue of being a good follower. A quick roleplay or a quick discussion. Then, I'd leave it and watch how people act.

No

Well.... We had our annual fall join scouting night. We are a very healthy pack who has recruited 20+ cubs each year. The school district changed their policy this year to not send home flyers with the kids. Last year, we could send one home. Now, none. The result, five new cubs. Pack across town got seven new cubs versus 20+ last year. If this continues, I'm not sure our pack will be around in five years.

.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I've been reading this thread, but fairly silent as I've been traveling without a good keyboard. ... I'm in this Forum for strong, good debate; to learn and to get to understand the opinions of other scouts and to hopefully share my perspective too. I fully agree with raising and debating virtually any topic. In the original thread, I tried not to insult as much as to raise my main frustration. I fully believe Merlyn LeRoy / Brian Westley is not here to "participate". He's here to "manipulate". To advance his agenda. ** And *** his agenda is advanced by damaging discussion this forum. He had a chance to take a slap at scouting and he did it again. Did he have an excuse? Sure. LA times published another article. Not much new in it. Merlyn pointing out the news article was not so much about communicating yet another bad news article. It was more keeping an old worn out subject top on the posting list in this Forum. Merlyn / Brian has been very prolific on this topic for 16 years: Google groups ... Newspapers ... Yahoo groups ... original news groups ... "UK" forums ... Wikipedia posts ... wordpress ... newspapers ... topica ... patheos ... Food discussion forums

My experience is that friendships are priority #1 to most kids. I'd find a way to leverage it and not fight it. If they are going to spend time together anyway, let them be a patrol ... if that's what they want. http://scoutingmagazine.org/2012/04/how-scouts-friendships-strengthen-patrols/

Merlyn_LeRoy - Yeah, shame on you. You just want to create ugly hatred. You know that too. Because that hate helps your goals. You just want to hide behind the dirt. That's shameful.

Beavah - Your right and everyone understands what your writing. The problem is that it doesn't help Merlyn. He has a political agenda and his agenda is served by muck raking. Stirring hatred and bigotry. It always says alot for an agenda when those advocating for it do it by damaging others. Merlyn - Shame on you.

Merln, Honestly - What's your goal? Do you want BSA's youth protection standards to change? Here they are. What do you want different? http://www.scouting.org/Training/YouthProtection.aspx I honestly think your working a separate political agenda by stiring hatred using old news against many many very good volunteers. Your demeaning others using one old topic in the hope to pursue a totally separate topic. That's just not intellectually honest. And I think that's low. You can disagree with a belief or a policy without belittling or causing hatred against so may well meaning and hard working volunteers. Shame on you.

$40 per year, every year. Covers registration, boy's life magazine and some pack costs. Scouts get next rank book in May. New scouts buy their own book when they join. The majority of the budget is covered by our fundraiser.

I've seen packs handle it two ways. - Charge full year dues with the reasoning that the pack is paying for more advancements and recognition for the graduating Webelos. - Charge half year dues with the reasoning that advancement cost is spread out over time. Either is fine. Just find your reasoning and be consistent over time. My issue is that 2nd year webelos tend to be the most expensive rank; followed by 1st year webelos. So by charging partial year dues, you are having lower ranks cover the cost of the webelos advancements. Generally it would equal out over time EXCEPT that lots of cubs drop out before webelos. So in a way, it's like a pyramid scheme. I prefer charging full dues. Keeps it simple. If parents gripe, let them pay for their own advancements and recognition. I prefer keeping dues low, less then $50. I prefer not routing any funds to the troops. Money was earned during and for cub scouts. I'd rather see it kept with the unit earning the money. ... QUESTION - If you would charge less for 2nd year Webelos because they are gone for half the year and the pack doesn't recharter them ... Would you charge Tigers more because you have to register them in the fall and again six months later? I just think it's hard to justify more or less because of time frame. Keep it simple and charge everyone the same.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Northern Star now has a new page. The old "inclusiveness" page re-routes to this one. I'm sad that Northern Star was pushed to change their policy. BUT ... I'm not sure if the policy was changed as much as re-written to be not so in-your-face defiant. http://www.northernstarbsa.org/aboutus/leadership/leadership_standards.aspx(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I also help on the district level and have helped put a few event budgets together. Not a huge number, but a few. I'm not an author of the budget, but I've helped. They are approved by the council and require a X percent mark-up to cover when other events (other districts or council) over-run their budgets. A good example is an event that purchased several thousand extra patches that they couldn't use. The theory is that the events will wash out in the long run. A few comments - Districts can buy supplies that can be used later such as flags, poles, equipment but usually only if used as part of the event that charged the fees. - Districts don't process or manage money. - Districts don't have a bank account and are not a separate financial entity. - Every event I've seen has checks written to the council. - Councils re-imburse districts per the approved budget - Districts can't keep a slush fund. To get event money out of the council, you need a receipt and an expense report. - Our DE has always been willing to make copies at the council office. We even have OfficeMax (Depot??) to make copies for us on the council budget. - The challenge is that district volunteers don't always have time to get to the DE or the right OfficeMax(Depot??) to make copies. - Not all districts are equal. One district might have a great "free" place to hold district events / camp outs. Another has to rent council property at $5 per person and $$$ for each and every building / facility being used. - Making copies isn't the issue. - It's how to pay for the more costly things. $25 for an engraved District Award Of Merit. Other awards and thank-you items. It's not unusually to spend $150 to $200 annually on district level awards / recognition / thank yous. - In the past, the district pays for awards by charging for the district dinner and having a council approved budget for that dinner. The dinner fee includes cost to cover the awards. - But district dinners are not really a sustainable model anymore. Fee people want yet another event. Ends up having 20 to 30 "paying" attendees. Food is $10 per person. $10 donation per person for awards. That makes the district dinner cost is $20 to $25 per person for food that is just average.

I've been in this debate for at least the last five years. Districts have costs but no budget!!!! If you have a camporee, the profit goes to the council. The district can't carry profit for later use. As already discussed --- Crafts, reproductions, etc Other Costs --- District awards (District Award of Merit, Distinguished Unit scouter, plaques, etc.) --- Supplies (napkins, plates, etc) The result is that many volunteers donate both their time and their money. (This message has been edited by fred8033)

churning out paper woodbadgers ... LOL.

Stealth advancement? I always thought that most of what scouts do can somehow be tied to advancement. Camping counts toward the camping merit badge and to rank requirements. Creating patrol menus, aquiring the food and cooking on the camp outs can be just to have a good camp out, but can also be used for rank advanement and the cooking merit badge. Preparing for a canoe camping trip can contribute to the canoeing merit badge. But the scout still needs to contact and work with a MBC to complete the rank requirements as published. One of the challenges we've always had was to make the troop meetings meaningful beyond announcements, sign-ups, meal planning and cleaning out the troop gear yet again. I'm glad if the SPL/PLC can use the TPF to start planning.

Peregrinator wrote: "Why would you have to ban them for adults if you have to ban them for youth?" To not be a hypocrite.

During our annual planning, the scouts choose six topics that span two months each. Usually, they choose from the Troop Program Features (BSA pubs 33110, 3111, 3112) because then they can use borrow / modify the contained meeting plans. We've never used one 100% unmodified, but it's a starter. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33110.pdf http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33111.pdf http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33112.pdf I only mention it because each topic includes documnted "advancement opportunities" both for rank and for merit badges. Also the program features strongly aligns with merit badges. So it's hard not to pick one without sort of picking a merit badge too. But it's still up to the scout to pursue the MB, get the card, contact the counselor, etc. It's just that the troop is working on some of those topics too and our outings are probably aligned with the topic too.

NJCubScouter - Perhaps you hit it on the head when you said you just don't see the point. I've been re-reading this forum's discussion threads and these exact same debates have been going on for 10+ years. Requirements versus guidelines. BSA control versus unit leader control. It's never ending and there are many hard headed people involved. Leaders asserting there's no real standard so units can create their own. The problem is that I'm mostly polite when I say that I think Beavah's example produces good results. It might but it also burns way too many scouts. I just don't want my sons or their friends or anyone that I'm responsible for near that type of leader or that type of program. I want them involved in the program as BSA documents it. No more. No less. I'm just sad when I see such misguided comments and advice as I often see published in this forum.

Beavah - As always, justifying your own rogue interpretations by picking and choosing the generic to confuse and ignore the very specific. You confuse and ignore the specifics. BSA also writes... Charter & Bylaws, Article X, Section 1, Clause 5 - "The Boy Scout requirements for ranks shall be the basis for the Scouts advancement." Charter & Bylaws, Article X, Section 1, Clause 6 - "Section 1. Boy Scout Advancement, clause 6. Ranks. There shall be the following ranks in Boy Scouting: Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, Life, and Eagle. The requirements shall be those authorized by the Executive Board and set forth in the official Scouting publications. Eagle palms may also be awarded on the basis of requirements authorized by the Executive Board and set forth in the official Scouting publications." Those official publications are BSA Pub 33088 GTA and BSA Pub 34765 Boy Scout Requirements. Don't have 34765 with me now. My version was older and put into troop library. GTA 1.0.0.0 "The Guide to Advancement is the official source for administering advancement in all Boy Scouts of America programs: Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, Varsity Scouting, Venturing, and Sea Scouts." GTA 4.2.3.1 Active Participation ... specifies how to interpret advancement. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf ACPP page 24 (for before Oct 2011) "A scout will be considered "active in his unit if he is ..." http://scoutmaster.typepad.com/2008AdvancementGuideBook.pdf Those are the specifics. The Bylaws that you committed to follow even says BSA will publish and approve the specficis. The scout was not "wholly absent" and ya don't punish scout for failure by the leaders. Heck, it sounds like the leaders did stay in contact. Not as much as ya want, but still some. That's the clear cut answer. Advancement is meant to be fair and under the control of the scout, not the whim of the scoutmaster. ... It's funny because as part of looking this up, I found a scouter.com forum thread in 2007 that pointed out it's been published that way by BSA since 2006. http://www.freewebs.com/activescout/activescout.htm Here's a funny quote from that thread that is still applicable today. ScoutNut wrote: "This is great, but I don''t think this will really change much of anything. This has been on the National Web site for a while now and has been pointed out to those who do their own thing. They still did their own thing. ... The folks who do their own thing don''t read the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, or if they do read it, they don''t really care what it says because they will always find a way (any way) to justify doing things their way. " And Beavah Beavah was right in the debate back in 2007 confusing and distracting the debate to justify leaders doing what they want instead of what BSA publishes.

Beavah wrote: "If yeh feel for some reason that BSA advancement isn't workin' for yeh, then I'd say fix how yeh are thinking about advancement and ignore fred8033 or bnelon44. They represent to my mind a relatively odd viewpoint that's not in keepin' with what da Scouting program has been for 100 years. " Generally what Beavah said is good. But if you ignore what bnelson44 and I write, you better just recognize as Beavah did earlier today that you should just ignore BSA too. That's what it really going on. On the flip side, if your tired of representing an undocumented program that contradicts what BSA publishes, you should just ignore most of what Beavah says.

What do I expect of Eagle Scouts? Strong character. Respect for authority and rules. Never to use terms such as "tarnishing the reputation of Eagles" or any other better-than-thou term.(This message has been edited by fred8033)