fred8033

My son said the same. Sleeping and living in the field was always more of a challenge for the other Marines. ... The part my son added was that the drill instructors reminded him of the camp ranger, his boss for three summers.

My question is the reverse. Even if the CO does not contribute, how does a claimant maintain standing to sue when the claimant settles for the same incidents with the underwriting parties that insure the CO. The existing settlement seems like an agreed value of the damages and a closure of the claim. It would be one thing if it was two completely independent entities being sued for the same incidents. But with the underwriting relationship, I'm not sure how that happens.

Nothing was in the trailer to fix the trailer. We had a few basic tools for basic stuff. And duct tape. And WD40. You can't pack everything in the trailer. If you equip to handle every contingency, your trailer becomes too heavy for most vehicles, including many trucks.

COR vs CC vs SM vs committee? That's really about who appoints who? BSA's troop structure is different from a business structure where each level up owns / approves the lower level work. BSA's structure appoints people to roles. Then, once they are appointed, they own that job. The only caveat is that the ASMs work under the direction of the SM and the committee members work under the direction of the committee chair. @qwazse had it right with the above link to the troop documentation. Look at Troop Committee Guide. Here is a PDF link to a fairly recent version. Look at description of the charter org rep on page 7 and the committee chair job definition in chapter 4. http://www.commissioner-bsa.org/kit/Troop Committee Guidebook 34505.pdf Who chooses the patrol mtg agenda? The patrol leader. The SPL should suggest topics such as preparing for camp outs or troop activities. With the suggestions, the PL leads the patrol. The patrol will hopefully have some patrol unique stuff and then also what the SPL suggested the patrol prepare. By patrol unique, I love hearing patrols that also do their own monthly activities and events. The SM is the lead person working with the scouts. The SM sees that the scouts are trained to do their jobs, such as the PL being comfortable running patrol meetings. Scout Badge Yeah. I'm frustrated with the original post, too. The Scout Badge is to be a quick win. Scouts experience working on requirements, being tested and getting recognized. Scout Badge is exactly setup to be awarded at the first court of honor after joining the troop. No need to camp. No need for time sensitive skills. It's to be a quick win to start the advancement trail. That's the important question. You will never find the perfect troop. In fact, the "ideal" troops may be troops you want to avoid, depending on how much the adults bicker on the interpretation of what's the right way to do things. Is your scout growing and benefiting and having fun? If so, smile and plan how you will slowly improve the program when you become scoutmaster. If your scout is not having fun and growing, look for another troop.

My son often related his scouting experience to his military assignments. ... During field exercises were not that bad to him while others found it hard / scary / creepy to be out in the weather all the time; sleep under the stars and/or in the rain and weather. ... Funniest was talking about Marine boot camp. ... The camp ranger that was his high school boss was very much like a drill instructor sergeant. He had less stress in boot camp than others.

Thank you for the summaries and insights. Much appreciated.

Can be. Camp should not assume unless explicitly stated. Kudos to adult volunteers who step up to supplement camp staff. That's their choice and kudos to them.

Looking at the wall behind my desk. Years ago, I had two extra sashes. So, they hang on my home office wall and show my bling. Eagle dad pins. Eagle mentor pins. Favorite camp patches. Pins from other organizations I received. Pin for my Woodbadge animal. Pin for religious scout org. Better than hidden in a drawer. Reminds me it is scout stuff.

No one gets in cheaper at the big high adventure camps. The Summit is one of the special camps. Personally, I think it's a good idea. Too many camps are filled with too many adults. Also, if a troop wants to recognize the extra work of it's leaders, there is no reason it can't charge each scout $50 more and discount the leader cost. The Summit would be on my bucket list. Consider it. Scouts will have great experiences.

Well ... since I like giving my opinion. minimalist I want a functional uniform. Easy to wash. Pins. Hanging patches. No disassemble / reassemble at each wash. Appropriate for hiking, biking, canoeing or outside in the weather Survives muddy, sweat and hard use. Quick to build-up after purchase. I want two or three matching shirts without spending hours sewing each and trips back to the scout shop for extra patches that I'm missing. I want a uniform I can use all the time and everywhere; not something that has so much bling that I feel like I am a display case. I have too many memories of events where I know I'll sweat through all my clothes and be soaked ... or be coated with bug spray ... or be dirt or dust covered. ... Because the current uniform is only marginally functional, we bring an extra shirt or wear a t-shirt under the uniform ... THEN ... after flags or meal, we take off our uniform and pack it away. ... also ... patches don't breathe ... and patches catch on things. Related Allow velcro position patches. Badge Magic is evil. Sewing is a form of purgatory. Provide multiple width sashes. Some kids have a lot of bling they can show off. Allow adults to have a sashes where they can show off their recognition knots, camps and brag. Allow some non-merit badge patches on the front. I absolutely love when scouts put their favorite event patches on the back of the sash. Allow a few on the front: their favorite (or 1st) summer camp patch ... a patrol or unit special patch. Their sash is the perfect place to brag and show off. Heck ... if the uniform was more functional, then formality can be introduced by wearing the sash ... just like OA.

The discussion was started because It was asserted the fundamental problem is that the professionals manage the volunteers ... and that professionals want to continue to direct volunteers ... and professionals hand-pick volunteers ... and put yes-men on committees. It is the vast majority of cases, it's just not true. What I've seen are higher tiers (professional or volunteer) excited when someone skilled and competent steps up to help. I've known lots of BSA professionals. DEs make squat for money. The middle level does not do much better. The SEs and top-level national do ok, but I doubt much better than other orgs at that level. I can agree. There are definitely things that frustrate me with BSA. But then again, it happens in any organization that you get deeply involved in, paid or volunteer. Even more in volunteer organizations, as people tie their personal self-fulfillment and self-value from being involved and being heard.

Just to confirm ... NEC / NEB are volunteers. Beyond receiving lunches and incidentals, these are volunteers. People assume "executive" means paid. BSA is very much a volunteer organization. Councils are political. I've been on council committee for 5+ years (longer unofficially) and district for 14+ years. ... Amazing how time goes fast, but I'm still far junior compared to the 30+ year council volunteers. ... I've seen the politics, but it's mainly the politics of people who can't work with other people. OR, people who overstep and make it personal. ... Similar to how these discussion can become personal.

Yeah. Probably time for me to bow out. The conversation is going too tangential and not relevant to the original post. I believe we have a failure to communicate.

LOL. One. Perhaps I'm lucky to be associated with a really good council and really good people. I've seen a fair number of people red-listed by scouting professionals. It's usually because of conflict or personality issues. I try not to ask too much because even from the outside it's usually fairly obvious. On the other hand, volunteer recruitment has always happened by volunteers (committee chairs, membership committees, etc) ... by the volunteers. ... It's pretty consistent with what I said. BSA is a volunteer organization mostly run by volunteers. Yes, professionals can uninvite you to the party, but it's the volunteers that recruit and manage the other volunteers.

There is also being a conspiracy theorist believing in sinister forces around every corner and in every shadow. The world is never that clear cut. In reality, it is far closer to the guidebooks than not.

Looking for absolutist yes/no? Out of 270+ councils and millions of people, you will always find examples to support any conclusion. It's a faulty generalization to represent the program that way. Also, the question was "volunteer management". i.e. who oversaw the volunteers that committed the offenses? BSA has ALWAYS been a volunteer led organization at every level. The key points related to volunteer mgmt of the offenders are Key three ... the key concept guidebooks - how the program works hiring / firing volunteers Guidebooks - This define how the program works. Unit - Pack - https://www.scouting.org/programs/cub-scouts/pack-committee-resources/ Purchasable. Not available in PDF yet. Unit - Troop - http://www.commissioner-bsa.org/kit/Troop Committee Guidebook 34505.pdf chapter 4 District - https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/mission/pdf/34739.pdf Council - https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/mission/pdf/33071.pdf Hire / fire - Hiring is a weak term for volunteers as they are not compensated. Unit hire / fire ... "Hiring" is always the job of the charter org head (CO) or their representative (COR). Paid professionals do NOT select or hire unit volunteers. ... CO selects and oversees the volunteers. ... "firing" is also the COR/CO. That has been the topic of dozens and dozens of threads here when unit issues happen. ... BSA does have the right to remove BSA membership when things go really wrong. BSA is very similar to the concept of commissioning professionals. You can't work if you are not commissioned. Well, you can't be a unit volunteer if BSA removes your membership. District / council ... it's the repeated pattern. My council committee work happened because I bubbled up from the district committee. Others have been selected by selected council committees to help, but that is usually by selection of a council committee chair or vote of the committee. Yes at times the paid professional can help suggestion / influence. But it's always under the oversight of volunteers. ... District volunteer selection is done by the district chair (volunteer) with the guidance of the district membership chair (volunteer). ... Council - Paid professionals are hired / fired by the council board. BSA national commissions (approves as eligible) but does not hire / fire council paid professionals. Council paid professionals can recommend, but the council board (volunteers) oversee the hiring firing. Key three - here is a strongly repeated and followed pattern that is well known. The key three are two lead volunteers and a paid professional that works a as a resource to the two volunteers ... At the unit level, there is no "paid professional", but we still use the term key-three. From bottom up. Unit key three are the Charter org head (CO) or their representative (or COR) with the SM and the Committee chair. All volunteers. There is no paid professional in unit key three. There is no paid involvement in the unit. District ... The "key three" repeating pattern continues, but adds the first paid professional. District key three are the district chair (volunteer), a district commissioner (volunteer) overseeing all the unit commissioners and a district exec (paid). The DE is the resource under the chair and commissioner. The DE does not do unit volunteer mgmt. The DE NEVER does district committee volunteer mgmt. .... The DE might suggestion, consult, recommend, but it's under volunteers at all levels. ... Only when it gets really ugly, then the only DE power is to recommend revoking BSA membership. Council ... This pattern repeats again: council president (volunteer), council commissioner (volunteer) and council exec (SE scout exec). The SE is working under the direction of the council board (volunteers). To address the question of "volunteer management" as professionals get their "yes men" is over simplified bunk. It does not address the question. It's also not how the organization works.

Dang. I fear being baited, but I do want to reply. My BSA experience is that BSA does not manage volunteers. It was never, ever, ever structured that way. The CO agreement document explicitly lays out who does what. BSA is about providing training and resources. CO is to "utilize the Scouting program to ... " and "Conduct the Scouting program" ... The CO has the ownership of executing and managing the program. The example repeatedly seen is when units have trouble with leader conflict. There is ZERO the local council or national can do. DEs are mostly powerless to "manage" the issues. Only when it gets toxic enough that BSA views the charter org agreement or membership application has been violated, then the leader can get their BSA membership revoked. That's the only power BSA has. The CO has always had the power to manage the volunteers. The fundamental problem is the charter org model. Out dated. More marketing than how the program works. You will never broadly see it. Victims rightly are angry. Many don't accept the premise of the statements.

... hoping to avoid sides too much ... "Liberal era from 1958-1976" ... The 1960s "liberal" sexuality front-person was Allan Ginsburg, the poet of the beat generation. https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/01/04/08/specials/ginsberg-obit.html Famous and popular his whole life and at his death in 1997. An early vocal advocate for LGBT+ lifestyles. Also, a pedophile and a vocal advocate for pedophilia, including publishing poems about it and joining a national organization. Times have changed.

Changing charters: There is no checklist. With changing charters, it's not a dissolution. It's a letter signed by the charter org leader addressing the ownership of the unit name/number, gear, assets and liabilities. I've moved a cub pack twice and a troop once. It was effectively a signed letter saying. To <council name>, ... <charter organization> releases unit (or units) #### including the unit's gear and bank accounts to be rechartered under another charter organization. Sincerely <Signed Senior Pastor or Charter Org Exec>. I then had the new charter org sign a Charter Org Agreement and brought all the documents to the council registrar. It's really rather easy. It's more about conversations than paperwork. Dissolving: Even easier. No paperwork generally. Just clean up the closets and document what you will do with the assets (gear and bank accounts). DE Involvement: DEs focus on new charter agreements to start units. DEs need to be included / consulted when moving charters, but it's really subject to the drive of the unit leadership. Key point: Document well. Phone calls to hear concerns in a living voice. Update emails to everyone involved (unit leaders, charter org exec, DE, district commissioner) stating what is going on. Don't surprise anyone. Don't leave people in the dark. I tried my best to communicate at each step: Here's what I'm thinking. Here's what I'm about to do. Here's what I did. It does not need to be fancy. For me, it was the same update email to everyone at the same time at each step.

Very well written and well reasoned. I doubt complete death. A BSA only would be ugly. Many councils would be forced into bankruptcy. I'm thinking states like CA and NY that have many cases under re-opened SOLs. Others will survive because they don't have the deep pockets or the SOLs are not open or not enough cases. Many will be dropped because the cash will not be there to be an incentive to law firms. I doubt BSA death because many councils would survive. Some are under SOL closed states. Some don't have the cases. Some don't have the wealth. My view is the size of this bankruptcy case has perverted the law, the legal process and basic justice. Of course, I want victims to get restitution, but I'm not sure if that is possible except if funded by the federal government treasury. It is a national charter. Failure was everywhere at so many levels of society. I would rather see this litigated closer to the specific cases.

All are possibilities as as I doubt every LC scout executive is in BSA good graces. Some are more tightly plugged in than others. Generally, I think this is about customer relations. LCs want unit scouters to focus on their units and not get caught up in the ugly larger noise. So, I really doubt LCs think the unit scouters want to know / need to know / should know the ugly details of everything going on.

I've given up predicting. I'm amazed we got this far. I don't even understand how the plan is legal to give so many 3rd party organizations legal protection ... especially as BSA's assets are approx $400m (at the start) and the insurance company, CO, LCs, etc cumulatively are in the billions.

Agreed and well-said. The trouble is looking back ... 1950s ... 1980s ... I really question whether courts and lawyers then would have interpreted as broadly as now being applied retroactively. ... BUT ... that's an old argument that will require pages and pages to re-hash. Time to restructure the relationship between BSA and the volunteers. BSA as a records-only organization seems like a possible good idea. LCs could have an association that forms / authors / votes on standards and policies. One standard is that to be a registered member in a troop, you need to make a record of your leadership in that unit. An application renamed as a unit membership record. The record is maintained by some new larger common-organization, but that larger common-organization is not treating you as an agent of their larger organization. Analogy ... many companies contract out Human Resources, Payroll, Legal, facilities, janitorial, etc. That does not make the company employees agents of the HR / payroll / legal / facilities / janitorial companies. ... Similar, local councils could contract out the record keeping to an organization hired / contracted by the LC association to manage their application / advancement records. ... extension ... this could be extended down to LC / UNIT level. ... then agency is really at the unit level where it always has been. ... It's important to make the legal situation meet the reality of how the program works. BSA and LCs never have had staffing control over units.

HA non-profits? Separating is smart to legally split resources to avoid having deep, deep pockets that bait lawsuits. Creating targeted non-profits would be fine. My ideal would be that National Parks create the idea of Adventure Bases that schedule, outfit and support non-profit youth organizations that teach outdoor skills and provide outdoor experiences. Philmont National Park. Summit National Park. Each would have trek paths. Each would have outfitting. Each would have specialty sub-camps. Northern Tier is already surrounded by massive national parks with many outfitters that can easily support scout-sized groups. Sea Base ... I hate saying it as I love Sea Base, but Sea Base could be either a dedicated non-profit or it's role could be absorbed by existing for-profit outfitters. ... The last time we sent a crew down ... Sea Base contracted with a private ship to sail the scouts. Sea Base provided the food, some gear, showers and a bed the night before the trek started. So, the "Sea Base" experience was very limited. Replace BSA with LC association A strong argument can be made here, but replacements would need to be found. It's not just about standards. Associations staffed by LC volunteers We have previous good examples here such as how the 2011 GTA was created. LCs could recommend volunteers that participate in national standards and associations targeting: uniform, advancement, etc Program and standards Perfectly setup for group authoring via volunteer associations Supply Patches would need approved / designed suppliers We used classb.com for years. There are others. Provide standard artwork for official patches. Provide standards and recommended vendors. Recommend units buy from the same vendor. Google: tan tactical shirt short sleeve ... or tan explorer short sleeve shirt Google: olive green canvas tactical shorts ... or olive green canvas tactical pants Hard infrastructure ... Some things do need more than just associations. Examples Records database Background checks ... potentially could be done by each LC now Insurance ... potentially could be done by each LC now BSA Membership Perhaps we need to re-think being a registered BSA member. Rather, BSA is really a records-keeping organization (and has always been) . ... yeah, we have a record of this volunteer. Yep, they submitted an application. Yep, they had a background check. Yep, they are associated with this city / charter org / scouting unit. Yep, this scout earned XXX rank and these badges. Here's a report on the years of their involvement. The legal documents really need to reflect reality, as there is no way BSA has ever or could ever effectively treat their massive volunteer base as employees. BSA needs to re-think the structure to get the legal structure to match reality. ... side note ... It still baffles me. BSA has liability as the volunteers are viewed as acting agents (employees). But, the agents pay to be members inside BSA. So, BSA really has no employment role with them. It's really strange.

Judge is waiting for the Geek Squad to recover her password.