fred johnson

SR540Beaver ... My apologies. My program and myself being referred to as ineffective by Stosh got my goat. And it especially got my goat after I was just trying to repeat the best practices I've seen and what is generally taught by BSA. I appreciate different approaches can and do work, but I don't appreciate cheap shots. Unfortunately, I was baited to do the same. I apologize and am embarrassed to have sunk to that level.

As always, your area seems rather unique. In our district, all packs pretty much cross over in the last two weeks of Feb to the first week of March. I know of none that cross over before February and only a few run a week or two into March. None in or after April. Some individual boys may cross over and start earlier. But that usually reflects a personality clash or a den failure. None that I know cross later as their den is gone by then. A majority of the local troops use new scout patrols too. Having your packs all cross over in six month increments would be difficult for forming the new patrols ... because the forming process is educational and part of the growth pattern. ======================= You have "ONE PLANNED" event ... one planned for each pack. The packs plan the cross-overs as the cross over takes place at pack events.

A "whatever it takes" approach is fine when dealing with the individual, but it's worthless for planning and advanced coordination. What I'm hearing from you is cross over scouts whenever they are ready. If that's what they want, I'm fine with that. But "TO PLAN" is best done with best practices. The best practice is to dens and friendships together as much as possible. The "trickle" approach can be very rough for those going into Boy Scouts and those left behind in Boy Scouts. Many troops plan setting up new patrols in March. Creating patrol flags. Holding elections. Holding new-scout activities that teach skills and build friendships. If your "whatever it takes" approach works for you, fine. I'm not 100% against crossing over earlier. Several of my sons could hardly wait for Boy Scouts. But they wanted to be with their friends too. =========================================== You're asserting "no big cross over. Treat them all as individuals and cross them over when they are ready. " Fine. Maybe that's the best. It's just not the taught or recommended way ... and it is debatable if it's the best way. This column though is asking "when to plan to hold cross overs". Coordinate with troop. Schedule it in the annual planning meeting. I'm just asserting that February is the month that fits best and is recommended by BSA.

Arrow of Light is an award and awards should be awarded in a timely fashion. No need to wait for B&G. But cross over is the last chance to award Cub Scout awards. Many scouts finish Arrow of Light right before cross over. No reason not to award it at the same event if needed. ================ Cross over is not a troop thing. It's not a pack thing. It's both. You have to have somewhere to cross over FROM and somewhere to cross over TO. It's a BOTH. BSA does not say "MUST" but BSA does recommend. As we coordinate between multiple packs sending Webelos to multiple troops, it's easier to coordinate based on what BSA recommends. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/.../graduate.aspx Scouts can cross over early or late. Those that are done with Arrow Of Light and qualify can go way way early into the troop. From what I've seen though, it's usually when there is an issue (bad den or people not getting along) when that happens. On the flip side, scouting is best done with friends. A successful Webeos program creates strong friendships between the boys and the adults. Most boys will wait for their friends to have them all join at the same time. It's not a requirement. It's what it looks like when it goes well.

Your comment is both rude and confusing and reflects little on what I wrote. Get on track and comment on what was written. ===================================== Birthday and waiting 364 days? Either you did not communicate what you meant or you are commenting on a combination of multiple people. I wrote both must occur in Feb because .... ===================================== Feb is birthday of scouting. It would be silly to celebrate a February birthday in January or March. ===================================== We want to minimize time between the cross over to when the troop is ready for them. With troop shopping, scouts come from two, three or more packs. When troops receive new scouts, many form new scout patrols. ... It's hard to form that patrol without all the scouts. It's hard to build the patrol flag. It's hard to get started on the initial kick off stuff. It's equally bad to wait in limbo until more new scouts appear. So in our area, most troops plan their program around a March start for new Webelos. It matches what BSA promotes. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/YearRoundGuide/graduate.aspx ===================================== Ranks and awards should be awarded as soon as possible. But cross over and Blue and Gold naturally fit together in February.

For us, both events MUST happen in February. In our city and per BSA, Webelos cross over in late Feb to start meeting with their Boy Scout troop in early March. Standard in the city. BSA promoted design. So, troops plan to their program to include the new scouts March 1st or so. We want the cross over to be the last event in the pack for the Webelos. With February being Blue and Gold, it is only natural to the last Webelos awards and cross over at the Blue and Gold. The only way we could avoid it is to have the Blue and Gold be February 1st or so and then have a 2nd pack meeting in February as late as possible. IMHO, it's about making it fast, fun and meaningful to everyone. So I see no reason to not do it as the B&G. Just do it well.

Yes and IT IS A BIG ISSUE !!!!! Some things should not be automated and then kept simple. Sign offs in the book. A big poster board tracking advancements. Those should be the official spots for Cub Scouts. Instead, leaders are promoting automation and giving parents sign-ins to ScoutTracks or TroopMaster or ... Automation is great for communication and scheduling, but not scouting advancement. ---- promotes scouts not bringing their books ---- promotes getting putting parents in the advancement loop ... once in, they are hard to remove ---- promotes focus on specific requirements instead of participating in fun den activities ---- promotes justifying anything you can for advancement and recording it. ---- advancement leaders forget to get advancements into ScoutNET for long-term recording. The biggest issue IMHO is tracking "IN" the book makes the scout bring and open their scout handbook. Heck, they just might read more of it. Not tracking in the book hugely discourages using the book.

10 to 20 minutes. 15 average sounds right. Some more. Some less. The important part is that the key topics are covered. For us, one is discussing the purpose of the scout badge and what all the parts mean and what that means for the various scout ranks. It's not a key point, but it's fun and nice. We also try to do them as soon as possible after the scout asks. Ideally, the same night (or day) if possible.

Sad. In my experience, scouting and beliefs is not an issue until someone (parent, scout or leader) makes it an issue. At that point, it's a show stopper and just destructive.

Yeah, start with a cup of coffee and a friendly smile. Scoutmaster and committee chair is like a marriage. Ya both better be on the same page or there will be conflict.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_Hiking_Trail

Yeah, it's sad. The current handbook is FLASH OVER SUBSTANCE. More I think about this, the more I realize it's a long standing frustration. Also, perhaps it's how the book is formatted and organized. The current formatting discourages reading the chapter beginning to end. "Bounce around" / "Toss It In" format causes scouts to skip around. Lots of bubbles / inserts. Lots of formatting differently. The format is more like a decorative coffee table folio than a get-the-job-done handbook. Examples from the "Cooking" chapter. - Pages 321-322 would be good reference materials, but the pages are tipped / angled and formatted different than everything else. They are made to feel like a cartoon instead of a good definitive reference element. How about making the pages face each other so that when you open the book you see the whole chart instead of having to flip pages. POSITIVE - I like a different color or something to call our authoritative reference charts. BAD - It's an accident and not consistently done that way. - Page 322 - Key information about water is tossed in as a unindexed blurb that is easily missed. - Page 339 - Peach cobbler is the only complete recipe. Ingredient list and quantities. Instructions. Well structured. But it's promoted to a full page as if it's some brilliant discovery unique to scouting. Where's the other complete recipes? Format it better and you could have 40 more recipes in 10 pages. Then the scouts would use it for meal planning. Again though, the formatting on page 339 makes it look less than authoritative. - Page 342 - Philmont grace. How about some other graces? Formatting makes it get lost. - Food safety ... some on page 326 ... some on other pages. I was going to suggest it's us leaders and that we don't promote using the handbook. But ya know ... I think it's just really hard to use it. It's flashy like "look at all the things scouts do" ... but it lacks usability and it lacks substance and it lacks authority. I emphasize that scouts need to bring their scout books to EVERY meeting and EVERY camp out. But really there is little reason except to record advancement. After the first little bit, the rest of the book does not get used. Heck, even the advancement components are harder to use in this version. If it was better written and organized, I'd be telling them to open their scout books all the time. The knot section is better, but still needs clean up and improvement.

We debate rules, but we support the kids. The kid will benefit from scouting and the scouting program can survive his presence. If the parents are not raising the an atheist issue, let them be and let the kid enjoy scouting. There is just ugly destruction around these political debates and both sides are damaged when it affects the kids. Essentially, I get upset when people put kids in the center. So the kid might not be able to do the faith requirement to some interpretation of the standard. With faith, it's about performing to the level of their own beliefs. They can focus on their spiritual beliefs and complete the requirements per that position. As a leader, I would only get involved if the parents are using scouting for a political agenda ... such as public-ally making a point. Specifically if the parents are not raising the an atheist issue, let them be and let the kid enjoy scouting.

Of course the "ideal" is great. Scout find a unit they want to be in. But the ideal is not the reality. - Too much self interest by scouts, parents, den leaders and troops. It corrupts and misrepresents. It hides real choice. For my last Webelos den, I've coordinated visits and activities with two troops. I've listed all the other local troops and parents/scouts can all go visit any they want. But I'm only coordinating visits and activities with two. Guess what, no one has cared to visit the others. So much for "ideal" and "choice". And I'm no different than any other den leader. If anything, coordinating with two has been more than most den leaders I know. - Find the troop that best suits your needs? From what I've seen, unless you are a long time scouter, you don't know what you really need. And even then, once you are in the troop, you want your kids to continue there because it's easier and a point of pride. So much for "ideal". - In my experience, it has been much more effective to work from within and help things improve. Shopping and promoting a choice escalates minor dissatisfaction to critical "decision points" that then get broadcast and cemented in stone instead of being worked through and solved. - The concept of troop shopping is a bad idea. Period. Switch anytime you want. But promoting shopping for a troop is a bad idea. - One of the best recruiting troops locally recruits as Stosh commented. They get 20 new boys. They regularily lose half to all of them. The troop looks great, but it's not fun and from what I've seen the adults demean the scouts. So much for great recruitment. Who benefited? It's a hot button topic for me. I think BSA has a bad program design in this concept. ================= As for the original poster, the only troop that should be injecting itself into the pack's program is the troop under the same CO. Sure the other troops can advertise and recruit, but actively involving and supporting the pack's activities is the business of the same CO troop. Period. Kids can switch to any unit at any time. But a "CO" offers scouting programs. The units should cooperate and support each other.

This topic is one of the reasons I am frustrated with on-line advancement tools. Especially those that parents can use to record advancement. IMHO, I'd rather just use Excel and email the next set of advancements to the advancement coordinator. It stops the out-of-control parent. ============================= Focus on creating a great program for the rest of the Webelos. Audit the "as a den" or similar requirements.

Yeah ... NO. I'd avoid getting too many people involved. Especially professional scouters. IMHO, if they did not care enough as this built up over the years or help build it up, then they should not be involved. If you want to make a substantial FOS donation, fine. Just make the decision as a troop. If you want to involve anyone, involve the charter org rep or the charter org executive. "Officially", it's the charter organization's funds anyway. The money was collected under their non-profit umbrella and it should be argued if anyone has a right, they have the right. For me though, I'd keep the decision within the troop. On the other hand, if you only have three adult leaders deciding how to spend $20,000, you want to involve the charter org. You did not say the amount, but I'm just asserting an example. ========================= ​How much money should you keep on-hand? After subtracting targeted funds (rechartering, "paid" camp fees, scout account balances, etc), have enough on-hand so that you don't have cash flow problems and so that you don't go broke in the next year or two. Before you figure out how much you should have, figure out your annual budget. Income: Dues. Camp fees. Expenses: Rechartering scouts and leaders. Equipment replacement. Site reservations. Special events. Awards. etc. etc. In our troop, we charge $75 a year dues and $30 on average per camp out. Some more. Some less. We figure our cost per camp out and add $2 to $4 for troop extra expenses. Goal is to not lose money on a camp out, but to not profit more than $1 or $2 per scout. The annual $75 dues are to cover rechartering scouts and adults, awards and any non-camping expenses. So I'd be upset if we had more than $1000 to $2000 extra unallocated each year. IMHO, troops don't need a large legacy fund. If anything that can cause trouble. ========================== One great use ... cut all camp fees for EVERYONE in half until the extra is smaller. That's the best use. Reduce camp fees. It's hard to help a pack because they do not necessarily join your troop. But it could be a great recruiting incentive too. "Oh, they helped our pack ..." ========================== I've heard of troops with tens of thousands in their checking accounts as extra. That's just dangerous and asking for trouble. It's amazing how people get bent out of shape and infer the worse of each other when large amounts of money is involved. Good luck.

I've always wondered about that statement. "Legally" depends on the jurist. If the jurist is BSA, the statement is right. It's what us adult leaders are taught. If the jurist is an government court, I'm not so sure on that. The charter agreement does not read like a standard business-to-business agreement or even a legally binding agreement. It's looks like a partnership intent agreement at best. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/membership/pdf/524-182_web.pdf But as far as "legally" owning ???? IMHO, the only legally binding items are the EIN, the checking account and the business infrastructure underneath those. Heck, the popcorn sales themselves create a bigger mess. Council provides and profits from popcorn sold by members of the charter org "partner". Money is used to subsidize and reduce cost to their members. Hmmm..... ................. "EIN" and checking accounts introduce well-defined legal issues. Charter org agreements sound mushy at best.

"I THINK" this is intentional. It takes time and energy to collect information that is useful. And what would you do with the info? And how would you protect the info? Plus it might scare away potential charter orgs. Also, it might also create BSA / council liability if it discovered issues and did not act. Heck, charter orgs don't even need to be non-profits. They could be a regular business. I know most business owners don't like sharing that info even if it's already available. As long as the entity wants to charter a scout group and fulfills the requirements on the agreement, I doubt BSA or a council would say anything.