fred johnson

blw2 is right. .... Ummm.... edited the rest. I think I was grumpy when I wrote it. It hit a button.

Is there anything new? What I see has been available for several months.

Have a strong specialized interest that will keep the crew going over the years. Planning and taking two big ski trips per year. Scuba. Sailing. If it is just a bunch of friends, the crew will die over time as people age out. If you have a strong purpose, people will join because of that.

LOL. I'll interpret this as ... Know the source of the rules so you can do your best by your scouts. When it was obvious it would be a one-on-one situation, I've met with scouts out front of the public library at a table right where people walk by all day long.

The smart scout will borrow from our Protestant brothers. Scoutmaster: How have you done your duty to God? Catholic scout: I tracked on this spreadsheet my attending mass and saying evening vespers for the last six months. I also served meals at the local shelter and shoveled my neighbors driveway. During our last camp out, I served as chaplain's aide and led a Sunday morning worship service. I also distributed Rosaries and prayer books to all my troop members. Agnostic scout: We do not know the nature of God and thus do not know our duty to God. So, let's move onto the next topic. Evangelical scout: I tuned all the radio stations in my parent's cars to Christian rock and made them sing with me. Buddist scout: Each night, I sit in my room and contemplate the truth of my situation. (Smart) Protestant scout: ... By faith alone ... What's next?

Varies troop to troop. IMHO ... and for the experience I want my sons to have ... the best answer is NEVER. But they can move around as they want. IMHO, we can't tell a person who their friends are and who to hang around with. IMHO, Patrol is a fancy word for an organized set of friends who want to do things together. Nothing more. Nothing less. My oldest was in his patrol from 11 years old through turning 18. Went from 7 members and ended with three members. I'm 100% fine with that. The worst answer is where scouts are told what patrol they are in because "most" scouts will ditch their own patrol to be with their friends. Hard to get work done and achieve objectives when that happens.

"Arrow Of Light Den" is in the BSA updates. No reference to last six months or 2nd year ... It refers to Webelos Den and Arrow Of Light Den. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/programupdates.aspx

I don't understand the escalation of the duty to God requirements. Scouting has always had faith elements, but our pack and troop are mixed faith, mostly Christian, but some Hindu and some non-practicing. Even within the Christian families, we have evangelical, protestant and Catholic. I'm not sure how a den could address the "Duty To God" adventures. My fear is that these important topics will get the short end of the stick and get stuck with being done in the family. All other adventures are "den" adventures. The "Duty To God" adventures will be done outside the den and "do what you think is best" and tell us when you think it is done. Similar to having a scoutmaster discuss Duty To God in a SMC. Contradicting messages could easily be given. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with a scoutmaster who belongs to an evangelical church addressing this in a SMC with my son who is attending Catholic faith formation. I really would like to learn more. Scouting has always danced a fine line emphasizing Duty To God, but being able to work in a mixed faith environment.

It might be used for a long time, but most parents are not long term scouters. Most are new to scouting. It was just a side comment. Don't get hung up on it. Parallel construction is an accepted concept. Tiger, Wolf, Bear, Lion are animals. Webelos was always a "What is that" to new parents. Confusing enough, but people think "whatever". But "Arrow Of Light" is different. It's like new-age terminology. Anyway ... it's just a side comment. Don't get hung up on it.

Thank's meschen ... I appreciate the info. It is hard to know what info is coming from where. Until we get an updated Webelos den leader guide it will be confusing. Or should I say "Arrow Of Light" den. On a side note "Arrow Of Light" den is a horrible name. Who the heck came up with that ... People could imagine Webelos was parrallel with Tiger, Wolf, Bear, etc. But "Arrow of light" sounds like the scouts are studying crystals and alternative medicine.

Okay ... post #6 ...

I heard a "rumor" that Webelos "Arrow Of Light" dens are supposed to hold their meetings with a Boy Scout troop. Does anyone know more about this? Or if it is just a rumor or just wrong. Any comments on how Webelos are supposed to do the transition WITH THE NEW 2015 CHANGES to Boy Scouts would be appreciated.

Arguing that Cub Scout leaders don't understand the Boy Scout program is a huge reason to create a much stronger tie between Cub Scout and Boy Scout units. Working together helps everyone. This is not about Boy Scout leaders taking on more work. This is about mentoring and growing Cub Scout leaders and supporting the Cub Scout program. The job of a cub Scout leader is all the more hard because they constantly re-learn and re-create the program. Having mentors to guide and observe would be enormously valuable. Having older scouts who could step in at times to help is invaluable. That's the value of a one-unit concept. Vast differences? Ya know ... there is also supposed to be big differences between Tiger and Webelos ... almost more than between Webelos and Boy Scouts. There is also a big difference between high adventure trips and the new scout weekends. The whole program is about progressive responsibility and growth. The trouble is Cub Scout leaders are not exposed to observing and learning how Boy Scouts works. Instead, it's a shock like change that is dangled for two years and then happens all at once. That shock like change is BAD. As it is now, of course that is how it happens. Cub Scout leaders get deeply invested in the success of their scouts. Then there is a jump across a huge divide into Boy Scouts. Do you expect them to step back? With a one-unit concept, leaders have years to slowly observe and learn to trust the leaders and methods of Boy Scouting. This is always a problem with volunteers who have more than one child. BUT ... Managing the issues with wearing multiple hates is ALWAYS HARDER with separate Cub and Boy Scout units. You have two committees planning and expecting people to step up. Cub Scout assignments don't see what people are committing to do in Boy Scouts. And the Boy Scout assignments don't account for Cub Scout assignments. If it was one unit, it would be much easier to see who is over-extended. The one-unit concept better avoids burn-out. What's the point? I don't see anything pro or neg about a one-unit concept. Cub Scout packs really need to plan more variety as Cub Scouts lasts 4.5 to 5.5 years, depending on council. Boy Scouts says it has more variety than it really does. Over half the Boy Scout camp outs and activities are the same year after year.

Woodcraft was term used by Thomas Seton to collectively identify outdoor skills. Camping. Cooking. Fishing. Hiking. Tracking. First Aid. Swimming. That's the simple view. There is a large history on this that is interesting to read. In addition to Thomas Seaton Wikipedia write up, you can look here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodcraft_(youth_movement))

JoeBob ... You are ranting without following the details. Record versus promise? I'm not really sure what "record" means. As a comparison though, scout rank is more like a high school diploma than a Red Cross certification. High school says complete these credits and these classes and you graduate. Red Cross certification says take a class and pass a test and receive a certification that EXPIRES after a few years. There is nothing in BSA advancement about expiring rank or re-testing capabilities. As with high school, you always have your scout rank independent of what you know. BSA advancement is a promise because BSA publishes the checklist the boy needs to complete and every Boy Scout uses it. Each rank requirement sits in the back of his handbook for him to use to track his advancement. The book and policy guides also clearly explain what a SMC and BOR are and how they work. That Boy Scout Handbook is our promise to him as his leaders on how he can advance. Nothing more. Nothing less. I fully buy on when you say "program". Your program should teach and keep teaching the skills. But if you are saying you want to re-write BSA's advancement promise and the Boy Scout promise to correct for your program failures, then I disagree.

That's great. Just don't do it as part of the advancement process. Make that the job of the troop guide and/or SM/ASM. Just de-link it from the advancement process. Advancement is a promise. Scouts complete BSA requirements as BSA documents and they advance. I am all for good quality to make sure requirements are done. But stick to the promise as BSA documents. Essentially, the Boy Scout Handbook has a place to sign and date each requirement as it's completed. That's the promise. There is no place to re-check previous skills. I just don't like adding process steps to make up for other issues. It creates contradictions and breaks trust. Work with scouts to make sure they know their skills, but de-link it from advancement.

Very understandable. Hard to have a new scout patrol when they trickle in.

You are hitting at the exact reason I tend to believe packs and troops need to be "one unit". To do precisely address what you wrote.

CalicoPenn ... your good old days are something I've never even heard referred too. As long as I've known and in the vast majority, cubs cross over at the same time. Different troops yes, but same time. yours would almost have to be the opposite. Cross over a different times, but same troop

Not a huge issue. Get it resolved. It might be a burp in the system. I'm sure this is not a new situation for BSA. On the other hand ... I'd really fear my spouse learning about it and how they would use the knowledge in the future.

scoutmom757 ... There are lots of opinions on this and I'm writing to you because there are many that have hot heads about this. I use the term "loosely" because it's not really an opinion thing. There is a right and wrong. BSA lays out the program. It's documented in your son's BSA handbook and BSA's Guide To Advancement. https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...sa%20gta%20pdf If your son is having a positive experience, then let things be. If your son is feeling discouraged or wanting to give up, then look for another troop. Here's the key issues in my opinion. --- Scoutmaster conference is a conversation. Period. Hopefully friendly too. It can happen anytime. Ideally, it is as easy as the scout saying TO THE SCOUTMASTER ... "Can we have a scoutmaster conference?" ... The ideal answer is "Sure. Let's sit down.". Close to that is "How about it ten minutes?" ... "Or after ???" ... or names a time. --- Scoutmaster conference has NO PREREQUISITES. It's a conversation. That's it. It is not a test and has no aspect of a test. --- Board of Review ... is also NOT a test. It's checking that requirements are done. --- BSA advancement is structured to be simple. It has many individual requirements, but the structure is simple. Anytime a troop needs to add process it's a big big red flag. If they need a diagram or flowchart to describe advancement, RUN AWAY FAST. So in my opinion what is happening is the troop has added a lot of non-BSA bureaucratic red tape to make sure learning is happening. This approach just creates contradictions. With the leader documents. With the Guide To Advancement. With BSA training. You can reach the same objectives with high quality without adding bureaucratic red tape. ================================================== = Testing is NOT part of the SMC. That's wrong. Period. Also, re-testing as part of advancement is equally wrong. There are ways to make sure an Eagle scout knows his tenderfoot, 2nd class and first class skills. And it doesn't involve adding process steps or retesting.

I agree with Matt when he says "Yes, the SMC is not supposed to be a test, but rank implies a set of skills the scout knows, not just once knew.." I agree with Matt's truism. What I disagree with is bad mouthing the GTA or BSA's program. GTA focuses on fairness and aims head-on at units that use bureaucratic red tape to make up for teaching deficiencies. Don't add headaches for the scout to make up for other failings.