fred johnson

There is no value having every adult registered in the troop and it can actually hurt. Over a seven year scouting period, it wastes $168 that could be used on other items. If you have 15 or 20 extra parents registered, that is $2000 to $3300. It lists adults as leaders who are not trained and who have not invested to understand the program so that they can make the program work. IMHO, it diminishes and confuses the program. I know many troops do it, but I just don't like the process. I'd rather have a troop with the committed leaders registered and the parents helping if and when needed.

I've seen this too for a variety of reasons. Usually one of the DEs is more senior or helping with other council initiatives or .... ​I'm 100% okay with it as long as I'd rather evaluate whether the district is the right size based on other criteria. Big enough to hold events. Big enough to get volunteers. Big enough to create opportunities. I tend to favor slightly larger districts anyway as so much is online now that fewer and fewer leaders show up to district level training or coordination. The only thing I've seen hurt by larger districts is OA conclaves. But even then, a larger conclave is sort of nice.

Scoutmaster discretion within limits. .... Overnight ... Required in my interpretation as implied by the term camp-out. Otherwise, it's an activity. .... Wilderness ... Subjective, but implies a camp like environment. .... Sleeping outside ... Subjective, but implies sleeping outside. ---------------- I'd worry less about the legalism. Advancement exists as a tool to achieve scouting objectives of teaching character, citizenship and physical fitness. So I'd ask if the troop leveraging the advancement requirement to teach life lessons. If so, great. If not, fix things. Beyond that, focus on the core of the requirement is the critical part. Responsibility. Planning. Preparation. ---------------- For cooking, yeah I'd probably give him credit because I'd want to recognize that he made the effort beyond what the other scouts did on the weekend to help his patrol have a good weekend. ---------------- In our troop, it's not really a matter because we camp monthly and we always cook outside even when it's -10F. It's just what ya do whether it is tent or cabin camping.

Fair enough. I was just curious. I see the much ado campaign about report to the nation. I was expecting to see an oval office picture in it.

Just curious. So the BSA report to the nation no longer has scouts visiting the white house?

Wish you the best in this. Mergers are often a time people use as an excuse to step away. they are already tired and worn out. Just waiting for an excuse. Driving factors are communication and membership. As such, mergers are inevitable. On-line tools (email, training, etc) are so much better that fewer people need to go to a meeting to get training or know what's going on. So, you need to pull from a larger area to fill the same meeting. Likewise, membership is down. So you need to pull from a larger area to hit critical mass of how many people you need to run successful district events and activities. The environment has changed and the scouting infrastructure must change to reflect that.

There was a time briefly when our scouts didn't want to step forward. The cause was an adult that was overstepping and effectively being mean to the scouts. Bad mouthing when things weren't done well and essentially a verbal bully. The result is that scouts didn't want any part of it. We had to fix that quickly. So when scouts don't want to help, I'd be asking if that reflects other issues. IMHO, the scouts take leadership positions #1 to learn leadership and grow and #2 to have some fun in the role and #3 to make a difference. But, if the drag is too much, then they well avoid volunteering. And, I can understand that.

Nice job click.

Stosh ... I can sympathize with your view. It's an honest and fair position. My view though is this is not about being honest at all. And, I don't see anyone trying to be dishonest in it. This is about making a bad situation whole again. It's not about right and wrong. It's about fairness. Everyone involved shares some blame. Everyone. And everyone involved will be damaged by it. If there is any way to pass this scout, he should be passed. it's the only way to make the best of a very bad situation.

click23 ... I wish you the best. and ... I hope that you can find the wiggle room to let the scout receive the Eagle rank. It's sad that something like this happens at the last moment when so much as been done and he is so far down the road. There is no requirement to practice anything except what he believes his religion requires of him. So for many, that can be nothing even if they believe in God. IMHO, it is so extremely unfair for him to be this far down the road and to not cross the finishing line. Heck, he received membership and five previous ranks without this being a stopping point. To do it now is very sad and damaging for ALL involved. If you can find the slightest slightest justification, pass him. --------------------------------------------------------- And please note, I want BSA to keep the faith component. I just don't want it a membership criteria.

Add nothing? No. Just left without a prayer. The policy needs to change. I hope they leave the pledge the same, but the policy needs to change.

Wow. Your shameful statement just goes downhill providing more insult and ignorance. Shame.

I dropped the rest because it's just ugly hate speech and insults. It helps no one. I read the lesson plan that was referenced and linked above. It actually looks reasonable. I don't understand the controversy. Different teaching techniques are needed at different times by different subjects. This lesson is less about history and more about critical reading and understanding challenging text. Common core is being politicized. But it's from the teachers side and from groups who tend to have lower literacy rates. Teachers protest because they change how they teach to get their students score better (aka teaching to the test) and teachers have real pressure to have their students score higher. Lower literacy groups because it represents them poorly. On the flip side, other groups want more accountability from unionized groups that are often beyond reach. ​Numbers are needed. Comparisons need to be done. Without it, how do you discuss anything except assertions not defended. People hate being monitored. People protest whenever it hits them. Truck drivers and pilots frustrated that they can't work more than X hours in a day as a standard when some can and others can't. Software engineers who don't want to provide cost estimates or be accountable for defect rates. My favorite is that doctors and surgeons who claim special training that allows them to focus for longer times. So they can do unlimited surgery and practicing medicine while another person is only trusted to point a vechicle forward for ten hours. Perhaps the pressure should be removed. But measurements and baselines are needed.

Honesty is often the first thing compromised when people feel pressure. Most scouts are under great pressure when doing their Eagle project. To some degree, by having some numbers, it helps keep the scout honest. ------------------------------------------------------- I'm not arguing for the process to return to what it was years ago. But it seems wrong to have just "I'm going to survey cemeteries for broken head stones". It should be, "I'm going to survey five cemeteries..." or "we're will to use three Saturday mornings to survey local cemeteries for ..."

I agree and that is a real concern. But I would really like to know if it is a 1000 or a 100 or 10. Plans change. Things happen. But at some point, the project is not what was approved and right now there is little to hold them accountable.

Thanks for the responses. I love the new workbook in that it is helpful to the scouts and reigns in the exaggerated processes our district had put in that I think were abusive to the scouts. BUT ... The eagle proposals I'm seeing lack scoping boundaries. Maybe it's just the word "briefly". Maybe we need a second box that can be used to better communicate scope or boundaries. I'm just frustrated with two projects I've seen lately where after it is approved and moving forward, I see significant scope changes that made a project that was challenging to be a cake walk. Essentially, it was described differently to me than it was actually done. But the proposal had few numbers to hold it accountable too. And the parents were involved significantly and knowing them I could see them descoping what the scout said so the scout would have an easy success. It's frustrating.

pchadbo ... Agreed numbers are difficult to setup, manage and evaluate. But as with standardized testing, I'd rather have that trouble than not have any numbers at all. ------------------------------------------------------------ For your example, the number collected is really beyond the scout's control. So it's a poor control. But, I might ask the scout to write down what they hope to collect because it's interesting and helps the scout better understand his project and it gives discussion ideas. Will the boxes fit that collection amount. How often would you have to empty them. etc. etc. On the other side, the number of locations, weekends and staff is within his control. Now if he said he was going to build five collection boxes and only built four, then fine. If he was going to have four collection weekends and he only did three, fine. My issue is we have one where the scout said he'd effectively have six collection weekends, and he's only having 1.5 collection weekends. Even then, I'd be temped to say fine if the scout just called and explained why the 6 to 1 deviance. "I didn't know how many people I'd need." "The beneficiary was happy with how much we collected the first weekend." "The facility is only offering four days, three on one weekend and one day on another weekend." That happens. But at some point, a proposal needs to get re-approved or re-cleared if the deviation is that big. I'm just thinking there does need to be more numbers in the proposal. At least the proposal does say "Approximately how many people will be needed to help on your project?" ----------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps it's as easy as adding a few words.... From --> Briefly describe your project: To --> Briefly describe your project (include estimated quantities or measurements to help communicate scope)

The proposal only requests numbers really in preliminary costing. The trouble I see is that the key section does not request numbers. It only says "Briefly describe your project." Construction - How many are you going to build? Landscaping - What is the dimensions of the area you are working on? Collection - Or, how many days are you going to run your collection on? how many sites? How much do you hope to collect? It's not about demanding a minimum. It's about the scout setting a goal and achieving it. It's also about honoring an agreement. I've seen a few projects recently where the numbers are reduced to the point I'd say it's a significantly and materially different project than was originally signed off. But since the beneficiary signed off on it (and many will sign off on anything), there is not much that can be done. And this is somewhat about people gaming the system where they say they will do X when reviewing the proposal but they actually do something significantly different ... and the beneficiary is grateful for anything and doesn't want to hurt the scout by not signing. I've seen one recently do this and I am rather upset about it. And there is nothing I can do about it EXCEPT make sure that eagle project proposals I sign in the future have explicit numbers and measurements in them.

ParkMan ... Yeah, that's what I'd expect. I think it also makes it easier for families to participate because both can be active in a similar activity. Just thinking about it.

T2Eagle ... Thanks. I had yet to see that. Our banks (which are huge banks) have just required "authorized signers" and another authorized person to update the other authorized signers. Interesting. I've seen it before with corporations where I've had to file articles with the bank for the account. It's interesting and banking has gone through huge changes since 9/11.