emb021

"Isn't Halo a war game? (I'm asking because I don't know!)" Yes. So is Chess. Heck, in one OA Lodge I'm in, Risk is a popular game, and they even created a large size Risk board for use in a big Risk tournament game at Section Conference. I guess when the 'war game' is abstracted to little game pieces its no big deal, but when its played out with characters 'really' shooting at others its another matter.

Added to the previous comment, if you can't find a specific place for a patch, the right pocket is a good catch all. Of course, you can only wear one patch there, so you have to decide what you wear there. This is why some people use patch holder to be able to easily switch out patches there. Frankly I am not aware of any national patches for Risk Zone or YPT, and these aren't training in which its critical that you wear an indication that you've done them.

"It seems to me they met after BP married, and a couple of years after Low's husband had died. She was a young wealthy american widow looking for something meaningful to do with her life." Juliette met B-P before he was married. B-P married in 1912, which was when Julietter returned to the US and started the Girl Scouts.

"Two nights ago, I was at our councils Venturing Roundtable and I saw one guy with a tan scout shirt and green shoulder loops. Sitting next to him was another scouter, a green venturing shirt wearing red shoulder loops??? What's up with that??? " Who knows. Both are incorrect. The National Venturing Cabinet has a page on their website on uniforming, that gives diagrams and cites my Venturing Uniform FAQ: http://www.nationalventuringcabinet.org/uniform.shtml "Evidentally, there still a large percentage of scouters uneducated on uniform and insignia wear. Isn't that a part of their training? If not, it should be. " Nope. I don't recall any training on proper uniforming in all my years of being a scouter (and going thru training). Sadly, you get the people who want to 'cop an attitude' when you point out their blaten uniform gaffs. While I don't like it, I've long ago learned not to make a big deal about it.

"I have been told that NYLT is very much like the new WB, which is a more general training and not as troop specific as the old WB or JLT was. If this is true, it is more a general leadership (I have heard it more described as management) training then the older versions it replaced." Having gone thru both the new and old WB, that the new WB course IS still taught in the framework of a Boy Scout Troop. AFAIK, NYLT is still organized like a Boy Scout troop. As noted, this can be confusing for a Venturer who does not understand patrols and the like when it comes to trying to apply the leadership concepts learned within their Crew.

You don't need to wait for your council to organize Kodiak. This is something that can be done within a crew (or between several crews). I would, however, recommend that whoever wants to run a Kodiak course that they get themselves to one of the regional Kodiak CDC course to get properly trained.

"didnt B-P propose to Juliette Gordon-Low and she turned him down?" Never read that in any B-P bio. Juliette Low was a good friend of B-P that some may have thought they'd get married (Juliette was an active Girl Guide leader in the UK at the time), but it never happened.

I have heard this here and there, but have to wonder what the value of it is. Yes, there is a problem with housing, but the main problem I see is that NYLT is really geared to troop operations. A Venturer would thus be very confused by being organized into patrols and troop when these things are not done in Venturing Crews. Its not a matter of 'denying Venturers the leadership training of NYLT', but one that's a little more complex. In my long experience with leadership development training, I see 2 types of training. One is more 'theoretical', where we explain concepts of leadership, with the hope/expectation that the trainees would thus be able to figure out how to use these concepts in their leadership job. The other type is more job-oriented, where we take those who are presidents to one side and explain how that job works, we take those who are vice-presidents to one side and do the same, and so on with secretaries, treasurers, etc. (or replace those terms with SPL, PL, Scribe, etc). Too often here they learn the mechanics of the job, but miss out on the leadership concepts. Thus, my concern with having Venturers attend NYLT is that since the course is geared to the model of a Boy Scout Troop that Venturers won't be able to fit what they learned there into the model of a Venturing Crew. Personally, I prefer that Venturers attend the courses we have developed for them: VLSC, Kodiak, and Kodiak-X.

As noted, the original Cub Scout program as developed by B-P was based on Kipling's Jungle Book story. Akela was the wolf who lead the wolf pack that Mowgli was in. Baloo was the bear who helped Mowgli out. The original Cub Scout program had other elements from the program. Either read the Jungle Book or (if you want) watch the Disney movie. When the BSA brought over the Cub Scout program, they had Ernest Thompson Seton help 'americanize' it. Seton helped turned the Jungle Book theme program into the American Indian theme program it became. Considering that Seton's own youth program was the American Indian-themed Woodcraft Indians (which was an inspiration for the OA), this was a natural.

I've never seen a bridge used in any CoH. Usually I see the use of candles and the like.

Mark- I strongly recommend you get in touch with knowledgable Sea Scout leaders in your Area and Region who can help you out. My understanding from Seabadge and other training is that the recommendation is to have the Ship have 2 charter orgs, the second one being a 501©3 org whose sole purpose is to own the ships/equipment for the Ship. (another alternate is to create a council-wide 501©3 group for this purpose for all the Ships). Your Regional Commodore should be able to help you out here. There are things you need to do in terms of donations and ship insurance you need to be aware of.

"looks like the thread has wandered into a debate about the nature/history of venturing crews. (*sigh and roll of the eyes*) sometimes you guys really do not stay on topic." Its not a matter of some people not being able to 'stay on topic', but that some people are still confused about Venturing and some of the other programs of the BSA (Venture Patrols, Varsity Scout Teams, etc), and when they are brought up, this leads to confusion. (and the need to make things clear).

"As the state is turning some of the proceeds over to BSA, I wonder if this is legal? Does SC do anything similar for other religious or discriminatory organizations? When I read the letters for the others so far, the proceeds seem to go to non-discriminatory outlets. I could be wrong." They have a plate for Masons. Masons don't admit women or atheists. They have a plate for Camp Sertoma, which is a private membership group. Lions Club. Rotary Club. Secular Humanists. Shriners. Sons of Confederate Veterans. BTW, many other states have Boy Scout (and Girl Scout) license plates.

As noted, its a competition event between the lodges of the section held at Section Conclave/Conference. In my section its a golden medal arrow about 2 feet long kept in a wooden display case. On the lid is a plaque upon which is engraved all the lodges who have won it, and the year(s) they have done so. Another long standing event in my section is the Adult Sinkathon, in which the lodge advisor and staff advisor of each lodge are put into canoes (1 canoe per lodge) and using just #10 buckets, try to sink the canoes of the other lodge advisors. Last lodge afloat wins. The traveling trophy for that has a cypress knee with a canoeist on the top, again with a plaque with all the winners over the years engraved on it. The event is so long standing, that many of our lodges will hold a similiar event within their own lodges, using between chapters.

FWIW, its no longer "Y Indian Guides". The YMCA decided that 'Indian Guides' wasn't PC, and change the program, dropping the Native American culture focus and calling it "Adventure Guides". This has upset a lot of people, who formed their own group called "Native Sons and Daughters". 4-H, IMO, doesn't have much of a program, unlike long past. It seems more aimed at rural youth, since it is part of the US Department of Agriculture. Am not fully clear on the program changes of GSUSA. They are currently in the midst of merging many of their councils, going from about 300 or so (same number as BSA) to about 100 or so. Several of their attempts at program changes have not been well received by the girls. (ex: Studio 2B, which seems a copy of the BSA's 1970s revamp of Explorers). From what some have told me, the GSUSA thinks that asking girls who aren't Girl Scouts what they want will somehow help the program, forgetting that this might turn off the girls who are already Girl Scouts...

"I guess it's more of a philosophical question - what authority gets to declare that the ACP&P is incorrect? " I don't have an answer for you on that. Frankly, I think 90% of the silly conflicts that come up in scouting (both in person and on-line) regarding policies/procedures could have been avoided had National done a little better editing job on many of their documents (ACP&P, Insignia Guide, Leadership Training booklet, etc. etc.). It would end the garbage 'show me where it says I have to do X' or 'show me where it says I can't do X'. And there are times when I wish the documents would make it clear that was is being stated are suggestions/recommendations and that people are free to do things a little differently. (that would get rid of the 'because it doesn't say you can do X, you aren't allowed to do X' nonsense).

"A Sea Scout is a specialized form of a crew (but a crew is not a form of a ship) so some members of the ship could choose to follow a Sea Scout track while others followed a Venturing track. Or they could all follow both, for instance during boating season follow Sea Scouting and in the off-season do VenturING activities in the other VenturING Program areas. " Back in the 30s and 40s, things were more flexible (or fluid). Boy Scout troops were allowed to have Sea Scout Crews within them or Explorer Scout Patrols. Thus these boys could pursue these programs (even wearing the unique uniform and earning the advancement) while still being members of their Troop. Even amoung Senior Scout units, this flexiblity/fluidity was allowed. I read in an old National Sea Scout Log of a Sea Scout Ship which had an Air Scout Patrol within it. Then you had the Senior Scout Outfit (a separate unit from Ships, Posts or Squadrons) in which boys could do ALL the Senior programs. Outfits could either have Crews focused on a particular program (ie, one Crew is Sea Scouts, another Air Scouts) OR the entire Outfit could change program with the season (Air Scouts during the winter, Explorer Scout during the Spring, Sea Scouts during the winter, etc). Advancement was also more flexible, such that boys in any senior program could persue any advancement path, even to earning Eagle Scout without having been in a scout troop (or even earning tenderfoot, 2nd Class, first class). The idea of a boy earning Eagle Scout AND Quartermaster AND Ranger AND Ace, while rare, was possible. Sadly, after 1949, they got more rigid with the Senior programs, and put an end to a lot of that flexibility.

To my knowledge the wearing of OA sashes (or merit badge sashes) off the belt were NEVER authorized, tho it was something that many youth did. I've never seen anything saying it was ok in the OA literature or insignia literature. If anyone can find this, I've like to see it. Since others have commented about what can be worn on the sash, I will only add that the Insignia Guide points out that 'sash backs' or 'legend patches' are NOT authorized for wearing on the OA sash. This is unusual, as the Insignia Guide almost never gets into what you can't wear. others have commented on the when is it appropriate to wear the OA Sash, mini-sash patches, universal pocket arrow device and the like, so have nothing to add.

"But can the ACP&P really be wrong? Or is it right by definition?" I just gave you an example of how the ACP&P is wrong, something I've pointed out to the guys in the National Venturin Division, who agreed its wrong. Why it hasn't been fixed is beyond me. The Outdoor Bronze IS 'half of Ranger', because that's how the two awards were set up. You complete half the work needed for Ranger (4 of the 8 core, and 2 of the 4 needed electives) and you get the Outdoor Bronze. The Sea Scout Bronze is most definetly NOT 'half of Quartermaster'. The Sea Scout advancement program has four ranks: Apprentice, Ordinary, Able, and Quartermaster. Each of these awards have their own set of requirements (tho each cover the same general groups). The Sea Scout Bronze has the same requirements as Ordinary, and this was done MAINLY to allow a path for Sea Scouts to earn Venturing Gold then Venturing Silver, tho I do know that ANY Venturer can earn Sea Scout Bronze (they just don't get Ordinary). Thus getting Sea Scout Bronze (ie Ordinary) is HALF WAY to Quartermaster, saying its 'half of QM' is just nonsense.

If a Charter Organization wants to charter a separate Ship and a Crew, I guess they can share the same number. I am not an expert in how councils handle registration, but would think they would allow that. Back in the 'old days', it was quite possible (and something that was encouraged) that a charter org would have the 'whole scouting family' of Pack, Troop, Post and Ship.

There is only confusion if people don't get it. Every Sea Scout is a Venturer. But not every Venturer is a Sea Scout. To be a Sea Scout requires that you be registered in a Sea Scout Ship, which is just a Venturing Crew registered as a Ship. This is why every Sea Scout can earn all Venturing advancement, but only Sea Scouts can earn Sea Scout advancement. If this was a Venn diagram, Sea Scouts would be a small circle totally within a larger circle for Venturing.

By and large what the ACP&P says is correct, I have found some areas where its wrong. One is its statement that the Sea Scout Bronze (really the Sea Scout Ordinary rank) is 'half of Quartermaster' (a statement which echo's the relationship of Outdoor Bronze and Ranger). This is incorrect, as Ordinary, as the 2nd Sea Scout rank is half WAY to Quartermaster, NOT half of Quartermaster. Another error is that any Venturer can earn Sea Scout advancement. Incorrect. Only Sea Scouts (Venturers registered in Sea Scout Ships, Venturing Crews using speciality code 1208) may earn Sea Scout advancement.

The relationship of Sea Scouting to Venturing is not quite the same as Varsity Scouts and Boy Scouts. Yes, Varsity Scouts are just a program within the Boy Scout Program Division, but Varsity Scouts are seen as separate units entirely from Boy Scouts (tho they pretty much share the same program). Sea Scouting, while a separate program within Venturing, are not so broken out within the Division. ALL Sea Scout Ships are really Venturing Crews (just registered as speciality 1208) and all Sea Scouts are Venturers. Some other facts. Sea Scouts were established in 1912. The Sea Scout Division was soon formed in the 1920s. Around 1935, the Sea Scout Division was expanded to become the Senior Scout Division, and from that point on, Sea Scouts was just one program within the Senior Scout Division, which later became the Explorer Division in 1949. It has from that day on been a program within a larger division, which continues to this day, except its part of Venturing. There has been times when Sea Scouts (or Sea Explorers, as it was known from 1949 to 1998) was treated like a red-headed step child. I think that its only been due to the strong council-area-regional-national committees that existed in Sea Scouts that the program has been able to survive. (I feel that the absense of a similiar structure in Venturing in many places is why the program flounders...) While there are some within Sea Scouts that would prefer they be more separate from Venturing, the fact remains that Sea Scouts are part of Venturing. The National Sea Scout Committee us but a subcommittee of the National Venturing Committee.

A Sea Scout Ship is nothing more then a specialized Venturing Crew. To be a Sea Scout Ship, Crews must register with speciality code 1208. Every Ship is really a Venturing Crew. Every Sea Scout is really a Venturer. Thus its silly to speak of a dual registering a Ship as a Crew. A Ship is ALREADY a Crew. Thus, any Sea Scout is free to earn any Venturing award. The reverse is not so. This is also why Sea Scout leaders must complete basic training for Venturing adults along with Sea Scout Specialized training before they can be considered basic trained.

Some history that may help understand the programs a little better. Varsity Scouts was established around 1985 as a modified Boy Scout program for boys 14-18. It was established after about 5 years of experimentation. The goals was to come up with a Boy Scout program that would both a) keep older boys involved in scouting and b) attract older boys into scouting who had never been involved before and would probably NOT want to join a troop and have to deal with younger scouts (11-13 year olds). As noted, Varsity Scouts is NOT strickly a sports program. Sports terminology is used because these terms are better understood by the older, previously non-scout, boys. Because the program is for older boys, the use of sports and high adventure with the traditional Boy Scout program is part of the Varsity Scout program. While initially a hit, the numbers of Varsity Scouts has tapered off, and its mainly used by LDS churchs. The Venture program was rolled out in 1989 to replace the Leadership Corps and create an in-troop program to retain older boys in the scout troops. Hence allowing these older boys to form their own groups (first called Varsity Teams and Venture Crews, later renamed just Venture Patrols) to do their own activities separate from the troop, either sports or high adventure. Venturing was created in 1998 after the Explorer program was split in half. The career-oriented Explorer Posts were moved to Learning for Life, and retained the Exploring terms. The rest, high adventure/outdoor, sports, youth ministries, arts & hobbies and the rest, became the new Venturing program. Since Exploring has been co-ed since 1971, Venturing also remained co-ed. Several years ago I setup a website that covers the history of the many older youth programs of the BSA, including the above three. To learn more, go here: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Falls/8826/