Eagledad

I fully agree. We found that 3 out of 5 new crews failed in three years, and the 4th in 5 years. We had a saying in our district, if the adults can't make it work in the troop, what makes them think they can do it with a Crew? MattR hit the nail on the head; "This might require the adults to learn some new things as well". Barry

Yep, you are missing the point of the Uniform Method. Scouting is about making good decisions. What are the guidelines for uniform in the Scout Handbook. What kind of decision is the scout making if they choose their personal desire instead of considering the rest of the patrol and troop. Uniform has many purposes, including building unity with your fellow scouts as well as developing a healthy mind. Barry

Consider the respect from the experienced adults you will gain for the effort. Sadly, In the eyes of most adults, you're still just a kid. But, just showing a willingness to be an adult will gain you the respect that you can cash-in later on ideas and opinions on the program down the road. I wish the course wasn't so long, that has to be considered. But, I would think it's worth it in the long run if you plan on becoming a SM in this troop. Let us know you ideas for ticket items. Barry

I'm sure he is speaking of the idealistic rule of a selfless motivation to a noble objective. The rule is no less and no more than the same motivation for helping the little ol lady across the street. Barry

You're being too much of a mom. Be a mentor who is outside looking in. Don't make this your hill to die on. Scouting is about dealing with real life with humility and integrity. Those traits will stay with your son long after the memory of his Eagle project. Do you have any idea how much one person has to give of himself to plan, organize, and build a fence on trail? For those of us who have coached, mentored and guided scouts' Eagle project ideas (sometimes we say no), we tend to look at the process being 90% of the project. The process is where the scout not only proves himself as citizen of character and a leader of integrity, but also grows from the experience. Barry

I am really sad to here this, not so much because of the move, but because it's so hard. Passion is amazing; it has the power to move mountains, but the softness to bruise easily. You have been talking about this troop for a few years and I admit that I rather you had applied your effort toward a troop more like your youth experience. Looks like that will happen now. Still, this experience isn't without purpose, you have some rare knowledge for future scouters with similar experiences. Adults are desperate for help that will ease their struggles. You certainly have a lot of experience there. I look forward to reading about your future adventures. Barry

SSS, speaking up against power requires a great deal of courage. Not only for the 10 year old new scout vs. the 17 year old varsity scout, but for adults as well. In fact, most repeated abuses occur because our human nature doesn't want to risk personal harm for standing up. Most of us hope instead the bad behavior will not happen again. For a culture you describe to exist in the troop, the adults have to allow it and encourage the culture. Just saying "The Scout Law is-the-law", won't work. Actions set the tone of troop culture, not words. And that you don't fault the rest of the PLC is a problem in encouraging the "speak up" culture. Everyone there are equally at fault. Knowing that we are equally at fault is what motivates making the right choice and standing up for what's right. If I know the person is front of me is behaving badly, then the only way to make it right is to personally stand out. If I see the authority (adults) repeatedly only taking corrective action against the one behaving badly, while letting the watching observers off the hook, I learn that I'm safer by not standing up. If on the other hand the observers are held accountable for not stopping the behavior they know is harmful, then I at least know I'm supported for standing up for my conscience and principles. I will give you an antidote at the top of my head. We had to take a scout to the emergency room for a broken big toe that was caused by tripping over a tree root while running barefoot through camp. When the scouts were asked exactly what happened, their consistent stories made clear most of them watched the event unfold. When the SM asked them what rules were broken, most of the scouts braggingly listed them. When they were asked why they didn't stop their friend from breaking the rules, they were suddenly quiet. They all knew the rules. In a way, they may have been more at fault than the scout with the broken toe. At the very least, they were held accountable. Barry

There is a large number of adults who are searching for some kind of recognition of importance in their lives and find it in volunteer organizations because prerequisite education or experience isn't required for a respected position. You think it's bad in scouting, go check out church committees. Some scout professionals will quietly admit that these volunteers cause more harm to the program than good. I have watched district committees brought down to their knees from these adults. I believe the WB course naturally attracts these sort of adults and are part of the reasons for the problems discussed here. As I explained in my earlier post, WB used to be an advanced teacher training course for experienced troop leaders. And those leaders were quietly hand picked based on the reputation of commitment to continually provide a quality program at the unit level. The course was not offered to short-timers or lesser performing scouters. It was not advertised as a Capstone or pinnacle experience, it was simply an advanced leadership course. However, these graduates were the most respected Scout leaders at the time (and held in envy) simply because they had the most experience and training. Rarely would one of these Scouters be accused of setting themselves above other scouters because in their minds, they were simply scout leaders who went the extra step to improve their skills for working with scouts. I won't get into when and how Wood Badge lost its honorable distinction, that trend started before I started as a leader. But, it's fair to say National wanted to use the course name sake reputation going forward in their training. I think the problem is that the traditions of the old WB were kept and pushed to extreme by graduates that were more concerned about the distinction than the intended purpose. How will WB change in the future, well my observation of National doesn't go through the effort or cost to change anything until proven of notable youth membership drops. While that was the cause for switching to the new syllabus, I'm not sure how the new course drives the youth to drop out. Barry

My I suggest the CC because the BSA says they are to deal with discipline at this level. Barry

Yes, I was in a hurry and my wording wasn't the best. My apologies. What I meant was that scouts don't learn values until their mentors react to their bad decisions. Mentors don't know how they will react until they are confronted with those decisions. It's a growing process for all units. That goes for all bad decisions, whether a scout chooses not to take responsibility when he is expected to cook or clean for the patrol or he bullied a scout. Adults will be have to learn how to contend with new challenges everyday. How they deal with the behavior sets the expectations for behavior for all the scouts. I used to teach that adults have to learn from each new challenge so that they will do better when it happens again. We had similar situations, so I can respond with some degree of experience. After reading some of the emotional posts, I'm wondering why some of you are even leaders. Scouting is about helping young men build moral and ethical character. If you aren't up to it, then maybe hanging back as a parent is best for you. Adults don't build the character for the scouts, they have to choose to do that themselves. But the adults do guide and mentor them by exposing them to the consequences of behavior, so they can make a choice. Character comes a the high price of humility. The adults responsibility is to expose the scout to his behavior so that he can see the wrong of his choices. Seeing the wrong of his actions is the humility that motivates change. The scouts need to be given the responsibility to see themselves in their actions. They need a objective pragmatic mentor who ask them the questions they must answer to themselves. Sure, the parents have to know, and I'm sure they will deal with their sons as well. But the scouts need to take responsibility for their behavior and show actions to atone for it. I found that when a scout was confronted with the level of harm they caused, they are pretty good, not only at making restitution, but making a life long positive change in their character. I would be surprised that after being confronted by the magnitude of his behavior, the SPL doesn't choose to take himself out of the SPL position. That has a lot more impact than angry emotional adults running around looking to cover their butts while demanding their bound of flesh. These boys needs help. If you don't know how to handle this situation, call for assistance, not cover yourself, but to learn from it. Something like this will occur again at some degree in the future. Not exactly the same way and likely not to the severity of harm, but it will happen again and the SPL or PL will need guidance and mentoring. Barry

Handle this sooner than later. Confront the PLc as a group. I held the whole group equally accountable and demanded (in a calm quiet firm voice) they make a list of actions to hold them accountable to be presented to me for discussion, recommendations, and approval. THEN I will talk with their parents about the whole situation. As for the SPL, I demanded he set up a meeting within the next 2 days with himself, his parents, the CC, and me. He must set up the meeting. He would be advised to recommend his own actions of accountability for discussion, recommendations and approval. This is your moment of defining the culture of behavior from here forward. I believe the less you say and the more the scouts are SEEN holding themselves accountable, the more impact you will have on all the scouts. Many adults choose these moments to get vocally loud for more impact. But I believe less is more. Body language speaks volumes and will have more impact in the future. what happens to the scouts depends on their reactions and how they hold themselves accountable. The goal the SM is to not take any credit for their actions of accountability, but be a strong mentor and guide of moral and ethical choices. Finally, this is the adults fault because the SM hasn’t roll modeled your behavior limits. Word have little value. But you haven’t had an opportunity to show your expectations for proper behavior yet. You are being tested. This is an opportunity to instill character changes in the scouts by showing your disgust of this behavior. Remember, quiet voice and body language. Barry

I'm not surprised at all. If you look at Philmonts published guidelines and just pick any ol cheap gear, it gets heavy quickly. Also, inexperienced back packers tend to want everything, not realizing one good knife and one back packing saw works fine for the whole crew. I have never taken a knife with a crew of scouts.Then there is the SM rule of taking care of the scouts by bring extra socks, caps and gloves, first-aid and FOOD. Our troop is a back packing troop, so we got better over the years of understanding exactly what gear is really needed for a crew. One rope for a bear bag, one good knife, saw, and good cooking gear. The fewer tents, the better. And nobody carries the whole tent, it is divided out among crew. But, where I found the most abuse of weight is with the food, especially at Philmont where the crew is carrying at least for five or more days. Add the water and the pack weight can easily double. The adults generally will compensate for the small scouts when the whole crew should share the load. But, don't feel sorry for the 70lb SM packs, feel sorry for the 95 lb Scout with the 65 lb pack. There a lot of them because nobody is showing them how to pack lightly, or at least balanced. Like most things, backpacking is a learning experience. One rule I learned the hard way is that if you don't want to carry a lot of gear, don't get a big pack. It's too easy to say "I've got room, throw it over here.". My present pack is half the size of the previous pack. Barry

This has turned into a very interesting discussion. As a 3 beader and a staffer of both the old course and newer 21C course, I have a pretty good grasp of its pro and cons. I was also the Council Junior Leadership Training Chairman when NYLT replaced JLTC. The WB pinnacle training reputation came from the old course that was created to teach advanced teaching styles to experienced troop leaders, mostly Scoutmasters. Not only were participants expected to have troop leadership experience, they were also personally invited by their reputation. Not just any Scoutmaster was invited. That further influenced its superior reputation and the source of the elitistism. The old course was not designed to teach scout skills. The scout skills teaching sessions where only used to demonstrate new teaching styles. Now jump to the new 21C WB introduced in 2000. This course was designed for a completely different goal of teaching adults how to develop a functional unit leadership team. The course structure is misleading because the patrol/troop setting implies a troop leadership training program. However, the course is as beneficial for cub leader and venture leader as it is the troop leaders because the syllabus doesn’t get into unit specific training. WB is an advanced training course, but only slightly because adults only require enough experience to know their responsibilities of their positions. And that is only so they can create their Ticket Items. Personally I feel the new WB course applies best for new scouters, especially cub leaders. Troop and venturing leaders don’t have any advantage over cub leaders in the course today, so team dynamics development might as well start team as early as possible. In the early hey days of the old WB course, it was just an advanced course for troop leaders, mostly SMs. And it was typically only one a year course of four patrols. They added a couple more patrols if needed, but with typically only one adult attending from each troop a year, the elitism status naturally developed. Not because it was a pinnacle course, but because the graduates and staff really were the best trained and most experienced leaders in the BSA. Some folks naturally let that go to their heads. I have to laugh a little, at least a 3rd of our WB Course directors today are women. And many of them didnt have a troop experience. They are more of the Good o boys club than males in most units. Personally I think the present course has a good curriculum for today’s new scouters. The problem I see with it is the Patrol Method legacy. Most staffers don’t understand the courses objective of teaching team coordination and working toward mission goals. If the staffers don’t get it, the participants certainly won’t. I personally believe the heart of the course is the Ticket Items. The course sylibus is design to get the participants prepared for writing and working their tickets. But most staffs don’t see it that way. The course is two weekends long (1 too many), but working the tickets could takes several months, or even years. One issue I have with the course (also very common with NYLT) is the units aren’t encouraged to prepare their scouter for the course. So not only is the scouter on their own in many units, their effort isn’t appreciated when they get back from training. I changed that issue with the NYLT courses by requiring the SM to review and develop a plan to help their participant succeed. I think the unit leaders should be just as engaged for their WB participants. I’m glad to see ParkMan personally recruiting for his unit. One step more would be preparing the scouter for how their skills will be used when they come back, and provide a list of Ticket Items to help the scouter grow with the program. My only comment about the Beading Ceremonies is, as an adult leader of a youth programs and activities, I didn’t allow adult beading ceremonies in the boys program at Council, district, or unit level. I can’t think of anything more boring to force Scouts to endure. Sorry this is so long. Barry

There is definitely some irony in this response. Barry

So you have 11 Scouts and two patrols? You have one small patrol of experienced Scouts (sort of) and one small patrol of new Scouts? What you have is two completely different programs with a SM that doesn’t know how to run either. Of course the 2 smaller patrols isn’t the elephant in the room (SM with no experience), but I would personally start by mixing the two patrols together for one program. I think a small troop like yours is an ideal place for scouting. Actually perfect. Older Scouts run the program, which requires pulling the the younger Scouts along on adventures. It gives your more experienced Scouts a chance to show off some real scouting stuff. The problem is your troop isn’t doing adventures. Shake things up a bit; do a small hike at the next troop (patrol?) meeting. Show how to use the compus, stars, and gps. Stop at a local park and pull out the makings for s’mores from your backpack. Start a fire and enjoy the flaming marshmallows. Let the Scouts relax and laugh. This should be fun, so step back, watch and enjoy older Scouts and younger Scouts mixing it up a bit. i agree with the resources from the other posters, really good stuff. But I feel your SM is everwhelmed. I would call the DE or District Commissioner to find an old retired grey beard who would enjoy volunteering a little time. You don’t need him to lead, just support and build some confidence. Our troop came from your situation. Learning how to be a good scout leader is part of the fun. I made mistakes more than I did it right. But we had fun. fun has to start somewhere and I think it should be with adventures, not advancement. You can help, look for something, an opportunity, to take the Scouts somewhere fun. Anything, it doesn’t have to be outdoors. Call the SM and tell him you got some discount bowling tickets for Troop meeting night. It gives him a break and makes for a fun night. Then, everyone can re-evaluate how the meetings can change, at least a little, torward more fun stuff. I don’t know, just some quick thoughts. Barry

This was actually a major topic of discussion on the forums 20 years ago. And was also the reason National replaced the WB course in 2000 with the 21st Century WB. The previous course was an exact replica of an ideal troop program. Not to teach the ideal troop program, but just to provide an environment for its real purpose of teaching new leadership styles to experienced scouters. Today’s course barely resembles that course. It was designed for scouters who already had the basic skills of running a boy run program, kind of like the 14 year age requirement Scouts attending NYLT. I was told by the Council WB Chairman that even the course instructors lost site of the course objectives and started running it to teach troop program and scout skills. The cause of the problem was the flood of new adults without a scouting experience that came from the membership change allowing women leaders in the troop program. Many councils felt that WB was the best way to get the large influx of new scouters up to speed with the boy run program. The result was what cocomax describes, wood badgers going back and forcing the Scouts to duplicate the WB ideal Troop. Forcing the Scouts to run their patrols the way adults wanted them to do it was the exact opposite of boy run and was driving away older Scouts in large numbers. National reacted to the problem quickly and today’s WB closely resembles the new 21 Century course intended to fix the problem. But as cocomax points out, it’s still a problem. We asked two adults to leave our troop for the safety of our scouts during my 10 years as a scouter with the program. One of those adults joined our troop to change our troop program using the lessons she learned from the WB course that she attended while a Webelos den leader. Without getting into details of her frustration with our resistance to her ideas, she interrupted a Troop committee meeting shouting that she was being treated unfairly because she was a woman. Then she stormed out. Her accusation didn’t set well with the 6 females, 7 males, and female CC in the room. It’s probably not fair to blame WB for her behavior, but she bragged that WB lite her fire. Barry

I’m personally not a fan of internal packs for new Scouts because they haven’t got enough experience with backpacking style camping to pack an internal frame pack. Just about any old sleeping bag can be strapped to an external frame pack. Just about the time they learn how to pack, they are ready for a bigger pack. Barry

I'm with qwazse, scouts change a lot in the next three years, so until he can get enough experience to figure out what he wants, I wouldn't get in a hurry. Backpacks are even worse, they grow out of those things so fast. Our scouts started selling their pack (cheap) to newer scouts so they could go up to the next step, which is typically an internal frame packs. New scouts do better with externals. Unless you have the funds and just enjoy getting that kind of stuff. And hey, I understand. Mrs Barry (and CPA) is telling me one of the motorcycles has got to go. I'm not sure why. Barry

Wow, I've not heard my scouting experience put in the context of a half century. I gotta think about that, lots of mix emotions.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm looking at this in the big picture (Nationally). Family Scouting is not only rapidly accelerating the decline of Patrol Method, it will be the dagger of it's finality. I can honestly say I didn't see it coming two years ago. Barry

You win, I give up. It's not the boys club anymore, it belongs to mom, dad and little sister. Patrol method is dead, outdoor social engineering is in. I know how long you have been in scouting WM because you have taken several of my posts out of context over the years. We need to start a discussion on new uniform styles. National needs to change the uniform away from Boy Scouts of America uniform to define a clear difference between the two programs. Barry

Welcome to family Scouting. Barry

Hmm, the BSA was caught in a scandal something like this 20 years ago with the Learning for Life program. The inflated numbers were significant, but I don't remember how much. I seemed to remember they got sued. Barry

Is that a camels nose I just tripped over? Barry

You guys have given me an idea of how to lighten my pack another 7 lbs. Thanks Barry