Eagledad

I added a little section to my SM Specific class back in 2000 called "Signing off Bungee Cord and Velcro skills". My point to the class was that while the 1st class skills seem less applicable today (even back in 2000), they are still valuable for developing the skills of setting goals and developing a plan to accomplish those skills to set new higher goals (rank). Honestly Matt, I'm a little surprised that National in the last 19 years hasn't taken some of your suggestions for first class skills. Barry

During the discussions of bringing gays scouts into the BSA, many suggested that the membership would grow dramatically. Several posters pointed out that no scouting organization ever improved their numbers with the member policy change, and BSA followed the trend. However, the BSA has always received a lot of support from alumni donations, of which I know fell dramatically. But, I'm curious if the many corporate sponsors who stopped donating because of the gay issue ever started giving again. Or, was the no gay adults policy, then the no girl policy, then now family scouts, and now the no atheist policy conveniently holding them back. Anyone know if National has talked to the Canadian Scouts to learn how they recovered after loosing almost 2/3 of their membership and donations. Barry

I teach SMs to guide their scouts to at least use an agenda because it keeps them on track from a starting to an end. Without an agenda, meetings tend to run really long because the leader will jump to what they remember in the moment. I let my SPLs run a couple of meetings without agendas just to prove me wrong, but they have always admitted agendas are the greatest thing since internal backpacks. The participants of our NYLC course planned at least 12 meeting agendas, and lead 3 during our course. I believe the SPL Handbook, or PL Handbook has a simple agenda. Basically: Officer and PL reports Old business New Business Closing if you need one. You could add Roberts Rules and let the Scouts work out what they like to use. Our SPL plans and runs an averages of 50 meetings every six months. They get quite good at them. Barry

Pros are faster bonding and more growth from individual decisions. Con is the challenge for continued growth and maturing as scouts get older and more experienced. Barry

Established Troop cultures are resistant to change because the older scouts just don't like it. And the more experienced adults aren't much easier. Change comes best from the younger scouts. You will have to be creative to keep enough of the older culture so the older scouts feel comfortable, but getting them to bend enough to start melding the younger scouts toward the new culture. You have to get very good explaining why your changes are good for the scouts to get the adults to try you ideas. Remember, their resistance is more of laziness of changing to new ways than not liking your ideas. But, they will find all kinds of reasons why your ideas aren't good. So, learn how to explain your goals and why your changes get you to those goals. It's the dark they resist. If you can paint a clear bright future, they will follow. Another way of getting the culture to change faster is to change the usual agenda. Go in and strive for new adventure: rappelling, canoeing, backpacking, and so forth. Do a couple of meetings outside or at a near by local park to change the environment. Get the older scouts and adults focused (distracted) on the new fun activities so they aren't resistant to the new ideas of patrol method. Even just having the Troop meet for bicycle ride for icecream can make a difference. Be creative. Think like a 13 year old boy. The culture changes will start out slow because humans are slow to see the purpose of where they are going. But, as everyone gets use to it, your program will pick up speed. So, don't get too frustrated with slow pace, just be patient. The momentum will pick up as everyone gets used your program. And, if you do a fun adventurous agenda at first, you will likely see your troop grow. Change is slow, but reputation move like the wind. That is another struggle we can talk about later. You are going on the roller coaster ride of your life. Savor it. Barry

I can see your compassion, or empathizing, or whatever, is driving you to help this one girl feel better about her situation. But like most of these discussions that are getting derailed from reason, there are far more "boys" in the program than girls. Are you suggesting test out program so all new scouts (both boys and girls) can jump strait to Eagle? Barry

If they run their program like yours, they will likely grow because independence is very appealing for youth this age. They just need to know there is something like this out there. Barry

There was no discussion, it was performance. I can't explain your experience, only mine. I will say that my experience was with girls 10 and under. That is when my daughter decided competitive dance was the direction she wanted to go. But you might be right, I attended a lot of dance competitions and there was nothing fun about them (I still think my daughter owes me for sacrificing that part of my life). Competitive male dancers stuck out because there was one boy for every 200 girls. That one boy sure was competitive. I never saw any body check shenanigans at these competitions, probably because there were a lot of bored dads looking for any opportunity to blow the whistle or throw a flag. Barry

You just described the number one reason why units loose their older scouts. If the program were left totally to the scouts, First Class would be way down the list and fishing would come way up. But let's be fair to ourselves, we talk idealistically, however, realistically the adults have to instill some expectations depending on the maturity of scouts. If a scout doesn't know what they don't know, the adults have to at least give a starting point. The problem is that adults don't know how far is too far. Learning the line that can be crossed requires reflecting on experience and courage to step back. Cubs is still an adult driven program, so it's easy for adults to push their ideals on the scouts to far without taking away much from the program. However, Troop level scouts is the real character building level of the program, so adult intrusion has measurable effects on a scout's growth. The problem for us scouters is that we don't see our negative influences instantly, sometimes it takes several months, even years. Reflection and evaluation takes a lot practice. The key is keeping the eye on the prize of developing youth who make ethical and moral decisions based from the scout law. Barry

You might be surprised to learn that I think the desire by the girls is even less than "not that great". Based from my experience of life, I believe most of the Eagle push here is the adults. I don't have the experience of working with girls in advancement, but I have worked with them in competitive sports and their motivation to participate was more about fun than winning. The difference isn't obvious when the girls played girls, but quite obvious when they played the boys. Barry

Maybe, but ambition should be guided into scout actions, not shoehorned by adult actions. Even your own words suggest the question is directly intended for the girls. Is that modeling "Servant Leadership"? It could be me, but after so many years of observing human nature, I'm cautious of the motivation to adorn the unit for adult vanity. I said in another thread that we should consider giving all the girls an Eagle now so the program can move on. Barry

A one legged Scouter at our Council Scout Show had a wooden leg loaded with unit brands, countless signatures, and many clever quotes burned in the wood. Pretty cool really, but I often wondered if that leg led to scouts getting patrol and troop tattoos. Barry Side note: My oldest son once mentioned an interest in a tattoo. I told him it was his decision, but it better say "Mother" if he hoped to ever eat dinner at our house again. Still no tattoo 15 years later.

This isn't new to scouting, Navybone. ""I've been on this forum for 20 something years and the subject of advancement has been discussed a 1000 times. In every discussion, the traditionalist consistently expressed that each scout's advancement journey is the scouts choices and responsibility. Barry""

I enjoy observing human behavior. I'm curious how program dynamics would change if all scouts were given the Eagle now. Barry

I've been on this forum for 20 something years and the subject of advancement has been discussed a 1000 times. In every discussion, the traditionalist consistently expressed that each scout's advancement journey is the scouts choices and responsibility. Barry

Welcome, I'm excited to me you. You have no idea how much influence a person your age has with scouts. From an old guy to the new guy; scouts are inspired by actions, not words. You won't go wrong if you guard your words and be humble with your actions. Barry

OK, that makes sense, but the water is still in the lungs. Wouldn't emptying the lungs first raise the probability of success? I'm sure there is good reasoning, I'm just curious. Barry Edit: Just read elitts's post and that seems to answer my question. Thanks all.

I think what you are saying is that so long as the patrols aren't mix gender, there is hope to make the traditional program work for both genders. And I can see that. However, my other concern is that the pool of volunteers is getting diluted with adults who never experienced the advantages of the traditional scouting program (primarily patrol method). I believe the challenge will just be keeping a desire to present the traditional program. I like your vision of the better future. Thanks. Barry

I have a question: when I was a scout, we were taught to turn the drowned person on their chest and compress the back a couple times to force some of the water out of the lungs. Now we are told to got strait to two breaths then CPR. What about the water in the lungs? Barry

Yep, my complaint about mixing genders is that it takes away the leverage to force boys to do what they don't naturally like to do. I guess it's the same with girls, but I don't have as much experience there. I think your observation is interesting. I appreciate your being candid because many here are afraid that any mention of differences acknowledges those of us who appose the change. Accurate observations are always good for developing and improving programs. Barry

Good post qwazse. I like how you found your numbers. I'm not sure of your reasoning for scouts not feeling welcome if they weren't Eagle motivated because 97% of our new scouts couldn't really care less about any rank. And, with today's adults, scouts actually have to go out of their way to resist working toward Eagle. I'm also not sure about your bold 1st Class opinion. Oh I agree and understand that scouts should be given the freedom to chose their own path, but I need confident campers. The First Class rank used to indentify a level of skills confidence required for surviving in the woods. Even if a scout is insistent they don't earn rank, I would still insist they prove themselves after a certain time frame. It's just a lot easier to look at a rank patch. I think that is where National went wrong, they have turned skills levels into indicators of stature, not skills confidence. Next to advancement, leadership is the most abused requirement because scouts today are expected to lead for the tenure requirement, not growth of skill. As a result, there are a lot of PLs running that couldn't lead their own shadow, much less a patrol. Barry

The crossover ceremony can celebrate Webelos graduating the Cub Scouts program instead of crossing over to Troops. The pack could still use the bridge to symbolize moving on by recognizing every Webelos with a hand shake before crossing the bridge. Have the troops meet their new scouts after the meeting. I think a new scout getting their neckerchief handed to them by the SPL at their first Troop opening ceremony in front of the whole troop would be more fun and appropriate. AOL award is a little harder if the packs insist on doing group awards. One solution is award each scout the AOL after they earn it like all their other awards. The award will have a lot more meaning for the individual scout standing by himself and the other scouts who haven't earned the AOL yet don't stand out. Barry

Yes, that one simple noun seems to be a distraction in discussions where it's identity has no relevance. Barry

This is an interesting discussion when experienced scouters of 30 years join forums to ask ideas for streamlining their girl program to get Eagle in 2 to 3 years (Eagle Mill?). Strange times. Barry

Eagle Mills area programs primarily designed to turn scouts into Eagles. Patrol method boy run programs, on the other hand, can be designed so well that scouts intuitively find themselves with the Eagle simply by participating in the program. One troop that always amazes me is Troop 232 in La Junta Colorado. Their program is based on the theme of the Koshare Indian Dancers. La Junta is about 3 hours from Philmont and they provide a place for troops to stop overnight for a small cost, and to watch their troop dancers in action. Well worth the visit. But, their list of Eagles is very impressive, and likely one of the largest list the Nation. Is that troop an Eagle Mill? Boy! it would be hard to find a troop where scouts work harder to earn their place of stature in that program. It's no gimmy. I'm not sure what good or bad we should say of Eagle Mills. I use to be an fierce anti-Eagle Mill person until I volunteered at the district level. Eagle Mills are basically adult run programs that set goals agendas for the scouts. Most Eagle Mill programs I've seen design the program to get the scout his Eagle by age 14. Our "put the adults out of business" program philosophy was at the opposite end of that spectrum. But, through humility, I learned that Eagle Mills do provide a place for families that would otherwise not participate in scouting. Is that so bad? That was the question that still challenges my idealistism of traditional scouting. On the positive side, Eagle Mills generally have well run programs. The scouts and the program look sharp and uniform. The adults are usually well trained and have a good reputation with the District and Council. There reputation is so good in fact, that they often set the standard for the district, which is where I struggled with them. District set the standard for units, and if the district standards are being developed by Eagle Mill programs, well it can hurt all the units as a whole. The only reason I still monitor and participate on this forum is to help units build a patrol method program where scouts can reach whatever dream they have for their scouting experience. Truth is that reaching the Eagle is just a matter of crossing off a list of actions. As some have said here, it's really not that big of a list. But, looking from a distance at all the requirements to earn Eagle, the goal appears daunting and a lot of work. Not what most boys want from their scouting experience. I was told by a lot of scouters that I should set the goal of Eagle into every new scout. But, is that fair for an 11 year old? Our program encouraged scouts from their first day on, to take one step at a time. Set one goal to learn one knot, when you reach that goal, set another goal for another another knot. Don't look at the bigger goal until you want the bigger goal, until you feel ready for the bigger goal. Write that goal in your book if you need. One small step at a time, that is all we asked. The scouts learned a process of planning small steps to reach larger goals. Not just in advancement, but in the goal of planning the next meeting, the next hike, and the next campout, the next high adventure trip, and on and on. It's a process that most successful businesses use. In fact, it's the same process that Eagle Mill use. The only difference is that the process in a patrol method program is controlled by the scout, not the adults. Developing a plan of small steps to reach bigger goals became woven into the fabric of leadership and running the troop. I didn't understand the success of this approach until the district OA representative visited a troop meeting. When and I asked why he was visiting us, he said that the last three sets of leaders for our OA came from our troop. He wanted to know what we did differently. I was on the inside and couldn't see how, or even if, our scouts were different. But he said our scouts were good at setting long range goals and creating realistic plans to reach those goals. The Scouts from the other troops were intimidated by long range planning, so they always voted for our scouts. Reaching big goals by setting small goals is exactly how our program developed our scouts, so that made sense to me. That was moment that I though, "hey this really works". Five years into our program, our troop had grown from 17 scouts to 70. Far larger than we wanted for a patrol method program. I learned that we were producing the 3rd largest number of Eagles in the district that year (we were averaging 1 Eagle every 2.5 months). The other two troops were mega Eagle Mill troops of more than 200 scouts. I guess what I'm trying to say is what some others here are saying, if the troop encourages scouts to dream and provides a program that doesn't get in their way of their dream, Eagle is just part of the program. One last thing, I always like to express my observations of the topics we discuss here. The one difference of Eagle mills compared to other troops is they don't typically have a good older scout following. Even the mega troops in our district had to add a Venturing Crew to entice the older scouts to stay on. Our troop that was 1/3 the size of the Mega Troop Eagle mills had more scouts over the age 14 than any unit (Venturing or troop) in the whole Council. 40% of our troops were scouts 14 and older. That is why I always say that the success of a troop program should be measured by the older scout program, not the younger scouts program. Build a program that challenges scouts through age 18, and they will stay long enough to trip over the Eagle. Over 40% of our Eagles pass their EBOR at age 17. Barry