Eagledad

I agree. First, most boys (girls?) of this age and maturity are more than ready for an advanced maturity program. I believe most Webelos Dens are just coasting their last couple months waiting to get in the troop anyway. Second, the few Dens that do wait a couple of months longer are typically doing it for the adults who want the boys to get more advancement. That advancement a year later will mean almost nothing to the scouts. For those Dens who are waiting, we asked that they send their Scouts to our troop just to get used to being a Scout (even if they hadn't committed to our troop). I would advise Pack leaders learn the standard crossover timetable for their district so they can help the troops. Late crossovers are a burden on PLCs just trying to place the new scouts in the right patrols, so they can ease the struggle of the change. Troop election cycles can challenge the PLCs just in recruiting and training Troop Guides. I've said before, the BSA looses more scouts in their first year of a troop than any other time. Packs can help a little by fitting into the troop schedules. Barry

I know we are referencing the more extreme part of the topic, but many of our scouts see something that looks like fun and add it. I was thinking about our scouts taking a craft MB and enjoy it so much, they add wood craft, leather craft, metal craft, even basket weaving. Because camps have the tools, crafts are fairly easy and a lot of fun. Many scouts added three badges to their original list. They aren't Eagle required badges, but they make a lot of memories and gifts for mom. Barry

I found it odd that they called it WoodBadge. I kind of felt like this is more of how to run a linked program than how to run a scouting program. Prerequisite would be running the present troop with getting the new recent changes. Barry

Well wait a minute, there is a lot of agreement around here. But there is also a lot of experience and experiences here too. I happen to believe that this is one of the best forums of like minded scouters because our opinions are expression of life's experiences, not illusions of our egos. We ran the ego guy off about a year ago. We aren't trying to change your mind (at least I'm not), we are just passing along information to consider. Or not. Someone once posted, "I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only only make them think"- Socrates. Oh wait! That was me. LOL Barry

I guess logical and reasoning suggest matching maturity to the requirements gives the best chance for maximum growth from the activities. But, our scouts who take camping at summer camp have a lot of fun and look forward to each day's activities. If they have that much fun at summer camp, imagine the fun of finishing the requirements with the troop. Barry

What do you have against partials? Barry

Our scouts, more often than not, came back with other MB credits that they signed up for while at camp. Can't scouts still ask to take classes at camp if it fits in their schedule and the class has an opening? Barry

I read Socrates quote, "I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think", and thought it would be a good Scouters Motto. If a motto works like a compass to keep our vision and actions on course, what would your Scouters Motto be? Barry

Who knows, but boys in Boy Scouts for most parents is a natural result of the BSA's long long standing reputation of the Boy Scout program. I have yet to hear any parent say the same for girls joining the Boy Scouts. Girls joining is a proactive decision. The natural reaction is probably a generation or two away. We might learn the answers to a few of these kinds of questions by asking the members of the Canadian scouts who went through these changes 20 or so years ago. Barry

You're speaking from your experience and I respect that. I am adding my experience, which is to keep the discussion as small as required with intentions of getting all the information and developing actions and/or a plan for going forward. Then, if and when a larger audience is required (such as your experience), the leaders are proving information and plan, as opposed to inviting multiple opinions (generally emotion) to fill the void, which generally forces multi-directional suggestions and usually another meeting. Of course every situation is unique and requires different approaches, but as I said, the beginning should start with minimum emotion and maximum information. Where units are challenged in these things is their lack of experience of dealing with it. So, starting small and working their way out usually provides enough time and insight to seek and invite the right experience people who can point the unit in a direction. Then, if the unit feels all the families need information, the information provided is coming from thought out actions. Barry

It's in who you know I guess. My experiences with UCs has been very good. In fact, more professional than the DE, which seems to come and go every couple of years. We owe our UC for helping us out of a situation similar to this one. Barry

I you decide to hold a committee meeting, invite only those who absolutely have to be involved. The more people involved, the more complex the discussion becomes. I don't agree with not inviting anyone outside the unit. If this situation was easy, you wouldn't be asking faceless keyboard jockeys for advice. My experience is that folks in general will make a wrong decision simply because they don't want to face conflict. District and council have monitored and dealt with many of these situations. How many has your unit handled? Things may have changed or you area is different, but my experience is that district and council policy is stand back and let the unit make the decisions, so the unit is held responsible for the decisions. However, if you don't know any of the outside members enough to trust them, then go back to my first point, keep the meeting participants to an absolute minimum. Barry

Well, maybe. But, your experience doesn't reflect all UCs. We had a very good UC whose opinion was highly regarded in these situations, even by the DC and DE. Barry

We would at this point require a parent attend camp and activities. That generally forces actions one way or another. Barry

Even though we had 100 scouts, this is how we pushed the patrols. It was a challenge, I admit. The Troop QMs job was teaching the patrol QMs their responsibilities and maintaining the troop trailers. The Troop QM had the keys to the trailer, so he was required for using and loading the trailer correctly. He also verified the driver was trained for pulling the trailer. The patrols where encourage to arrange transportation to take their gear. That could include the trailer is the patrols were camping with the troop. The system is not a pure as the old days, but it was a start in the right direction. Part of the challenge is the respect (of lack of) for the Patrol QM. When I was a scout, the PQM was considered more important than the Asst PL because they were responsible for the condition of the gear and for getting it to camp outs. The PQM today is more of a position used to give a scout a title. Barry

Very good thanks. What I meant by Scouter course is experiencing Patrol Method and understanding the intention of the process so they know why to apply it. Barry

What Wood Badge skills are being practiced? This course sounds more like a Scouter course for adult troop leaders, or what should be for troop leaders. Very interesting. Barry

What is this course? I'm not familiar with it. Barry

This happens every now and then, an Eagle does a really bad thing. The only time I remember the media hanging on to it very long is when an Eagle tortured a gay man. Even then it was less about the Eagle and more about intolerance. Barry

We do. That is where we send the computer nerds to get some POR time. Barry

This sounds like that the adults are taking more responsibility (too much) of POR performance accountability than the PLC. Goes back to my example of the SPL who removed several PORs because he was accountable for their performance and didn't see any practical need for them. Your situation is very common with most (if not all) troops because some of the responsibilities aren't tied to major patrol or troop team goals. They are just kind of off to themselves. We had this problem with our Troop secretary who takes notes at the PLC meetings. To add more accountable responsibility, we gave him the responsibility of updating the Troopmaster Advancement software. The advancement is important for the scouts to get recognition, but the software also tracks each scouts attendance to troop activities. Which are important for accountibility. This was an adults job, but by giving him the Secretary responsibility, he was also expected to train the patrols to keep records as well. The adult would check the Secretaries updates each week because frankly, these were sent to Council and the committee was concerned about accuracy. Work with the SPL/PLC and see if they can find ways to tie the POR expectations into overall goals. Then they would be part of a team that holds each other accountable, or else mayham would follow. Barry

He may have. The story is only one side told by the parent. Barry

Well! Yes! The scouter was not confident with his skill in working this scout. Soooo, he should proceed outside of his comfort and possibly put others in the area in danger! It isn't just an issue with this particular situation at summer camp, I've seen it repeated several times over the years with unit leaders. Scouters (volunteers) only have so much experience for the different challenges that confront them. AND, I'm sure it's not the parents first time to run into adults who aren't comfortable working safely with their kids. So, who is responsible? Parents need to step up an expect to provide the assistance needed for the gap between the adults apprehension and their child's handicapped limitations. Two friends of mine became Scoutmasters just so their handicapped sons could have a fulfilling scouting experience. Barry

Yep, you stated it perfectly. It's about engaged, not advancement. I found in my own observations and poling that if a scout stays active after summer camp, the scout likely stays for several years. I believe summer camp is where everything the new scout has experience up to that time all comes together, or not. The BSA looses more youth during the first year troop experience than any other time. The problem is that difference from being told how to do just about everything by parents to relying on their independent decision making is huge. Up until they join a troop, most boys feel safe around adults. Now their safety depends on other scouts. Troops that help the scout just enough so he doesn't feel lost, but gives him enough of the independence to like making decisions have the most success. The numbers show that doing that kind of program is challenging. Barry

In most cases, leadership sessions are best used where role modeling doesn't exist for a needed skill. When our troop was young, we observed the patrols struggling to be organized on campouts. So, we scheduled a special session to work on organization. I remember the adults simulated a typical Patrol Corners meeting where the PL ran a meeting to plan menus and review camp schedule. About 2/3s way through the simulation, one of the Patrol Leaders said loudly "OH! I SEE!". And we saw a big performance change on the next camp out. The adults assumed the young PLs knew how use patrol corners for planning, but they were never taught and didn't know what they didn't know. As in most cases, it's a matter of understanding expectations. But once the skill is brought into the program, it shouldn't need to be taught again. For me, a required teaching session is a red flag that the patrol method is failing somewhere. Of course no troop program is perfect, and troop performance changes with scouts coming and going. So, there is always the need for some kind of training. But the key is identifying a need so the students have an eager desire to fix an annoyance. Barry