Eagledad

>>Now that I'm a tad wiser, I might help make the Troop more boy led by charging the Scribe with responsibility to send updates to me from the PLs...

Oh I understand. I didn't think you were on any kind of Ego trip; my warning is more to watch out for any kind of appearance of it. It is not hard to come off appearing that it is SueM's troop and sues vision. Our troop just had its 20th anniversary. The present SM had all the past Scoutmasters give a brief writ up about their experience in the Troop that was included in the Troop Banquet program. As he read these writ ups coming in from the SMs, he found out that basically everything I was trying to teach the adults while I was Scoutmaster was started by the SM before me. He did not realize that we were working on the same Vision and so he apologized for all the times he called the Troop, Barry's troop. Maybe the fault was mine in that I didnt talk more about the history of the vision, Aims, methods, and boy run. But I was struggling to just get the adults to understand it all while at the same time trying to make it all work. I try hard to be a humble person and was hurt when my friends whispered behind my back that this was Barrys Troop. Guardian of the Vision may be a noble task, but there is a reason why knights wore armer. Again, good luck. I really like your approach. Barry

What a wonderful post SueM. I think that is a fantastic idea and I wished I thought of something similar when I was trying to mentor the adults toward our Troop vision. Something else you can do while you are guiding them in this process is refer them to books, articles and documents that support the mission and vision you keep talking about. You add integrity to yourself and the program because they learn the vision is not all your creation, it is a vision generally held by the scouting community as a whole, at least by those who set their program to a higher standard anyway. One other thing, there is a risk of putting yourself on a pedestal when you take on the role of mentor. Remember God ask us to walk humbly beside him. There can be a fine line between mentoring and an ego trip. Watch your pace and make sure that you walk with your team, not above them. I like this idea so much SueM, Im tempted to go find a troop that needs a new SM. Thinkingthinking. Nope, the temptation went away. I guess I will just watch from the sidelines. Good luck and please let us know how it goes. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

There is usually one adult who is dominating enough that the rest of the group will just blindly follow. There is the obvious risk that the scouts will drop out instead of transferring to Troop B. In fact I found that is the likely result. I must say ma, of all the post I've read from you on this forum, this one describes your personality the best. I wish there were more like you in scouting. Barry

Dang, Eamonn beat me to it again. For me, scouting is the real world scaled down to a boys size. I always look for real-world situations to teach scouts small lessons now before they get in the real world. If we have camp rules, its for a reason, and usually safety. But, I usually went through the SPL and PLC to set the rules, not the almighty power-addictive adults. When our troop started having problems with coke cans, I first explained to the SPL why cleanliness had a lot to do with safety, animals, bugs and so on. Then we started doing surprise camp inspections where it was embarrassingly obvious to the PLC that the scouts had a problem. Before the next PLC meeting, I told the SPL that safety was heavy on my mind and I was very disappointed by what I saw, so I was going to enforce a no coke rule. Then I quietly said I would be willing to listen to compromises. As far as I know, the Troop still allows the Patrols one bottle of soda a campout. No cans and only one bottle. Same goes with sugar, if the scouts are hurting themselves because they are abusing it, then there will be a discussion between the SPL and SM. I wanted the PLC to understand the value of purposeful rules and being responsible for each other safety. Every troop has these things come up. Depending how you look at them, they are either reasons to be disapointed, or opportunities to grow. I looked for them and use them as great opportunities to teach life lessons. USe your wisdom for guiding the scouts to live clean, healthy and safe lifestyles. Try not to use your adult stature to make them bow to what appears to be your personal adult fears. Show them the facts and deal with the consequenses. Rules are a lot easier to enforce when the scouts make them and enforce them. By the way, a lot these problems went away when our troop went to a backpacking troop and the scouts learned low impact camping. Most of the older scouts teach the younger one about smellables and the risk. As for me using these as lifes lessons, I had to move on and find new ones. Scoutmasters are always being challenged. Barry

Happy Easter All Well, Eamonn beat me to it again. When our Troop got to a size where we had a big committee, I started meeting with just the CC and a couple other trusted members to hash difficult subject. We discussed the situation until we came up with a good solution to propose to the committee. The problem stated that many members only show up during committee meetings is one I've seen happen, not in scouts, but churches and schools that are doing fairly well. Folks are always looking to get in a good thing. One other thing I started doing when these kinds of things happened is required all adults to come to my Aims and Methods meeting twice a year. It give me a chance to make sure everyone understood how the program worked and how and why I do things with the scouts. I could justify everything I did with the scouts, could they? Your in a strang spot, but I would suggest the adults start backing up their talk with what the BSA says, the SM included. When that doesn't end discussions, maybe a trust third party can come in. We had a good unit commissioner that I made sure attended if we had a difficult situation. Not to lecture, but this all goes back to the importance of the unit, the whole unit, understanding the Vision or goals of the program. Usually these kinds of things happen when adults who don't understand the overall goals start disputting some of the ways the unit is working toward that vision or goal. Maybe it is time for everyone to get back to basics. I know I'rambling, so I'll let the others give input. BArry

Hi gwd, I haven't offered much because Eamonn expressed my thoughts. But I would suggest your troop consider sending other adults, expecially the CC. This is a very good course in team building, team leadership and understanding the importance of Vision. A CC will come back a much better team leader and likely increase your ability to Scoutmaster. Together you two might become a powerful force for the program and the families of your Troop. Barry

Hi All I dont think women should be the first choice for Scoutmaster. Yes, I seem to be stepping into these kinds of topics lately. But I have expressed these opinions before without getting into rough seas because the groups in the past has been adult and not reading more into it than intended. I once had a discussion, very civil, with a very close friend who was about to be a female scoutmaster. She was all caught up in the political correctness defence mode in our discussion of female scoutmasters. At one point, I told her that I agree that women can better as good if not better scoutmasters than men in every respect except one, and that is role modeling a man of character. She is pretty smart and we are good friends, she agreed with that and we never discussed the subject again. She was a good SM. Boy and girls of this age group learn most of their behavior (80 percent or more) by what they see from others, not what they are told. While we talk about it a lot, I think adults today basically ignore role modeling as the primary teaching method for developing behavior of our young adults. Even more important is to understand that boys watch men primarily for their influence as girls watch women. It is our human nature to take lesson from those we want to be like because survival is based from the skills gain in the scout ages. Boys dont look to women first to learn manly skills just like girls dont look to men because instinct drives us toward our gender behavior. Nature takes care of us in that our inner desires of what to learn and it naturally point us toward the most dominant role models of the same gender, whether we wamt to or not. It has nothing to do with who is better at what. It has everything to do with the gender of who our sons and daughters want to be like. For a Boy Scout troop, I dont think gender is all that important for the supporters of the dominant leader, the SM. The ASMs and Committee Members just need to have the character qualities that are consistent with the scoutmaster and the program they are teaching the scouts. But the dominant role model should be a male for a unit to have its greatest influence on boys developing habits that lead to character. Is that offensive to women in Boy Scouting? It should only be as offensive as it is to men in Girl Scouting. We live in a topsy-turby world where gender equality has been warped to mean no differences at all. Yet, when we get down to it, men and women are truly different and we need to use that to our advantage of doing the best we can to develop our kids into the best citizens of character and leaders of integrity, no matter what gender they are. Human nature is what it is and we need to keep that in mind. All that being said, I think there are times when it is appropriate for women to be scoutmasters. When the character of the woman far exceeds the character of avalible men, it is much better to give boys example of good character than a dominant role model who is not. A few years back our council finally kicked out a SM who should have never been allowed near boys. The units other choice was a woman willing and able, but they chose gender over character. I personally am close friends with several women who are or who were Scoutmasters and they were the best person at the time for their units. I watch the female Scoutmasters on this forum and they seem outstanding and I enjoy reading their post and giving advice. I would enjoy working with anyone of them in a heart beat. But when all things are equal, all things are not equal. If I could pick the right role model for my sons and daughters in their scout units, I will pick units where the dominant leader is the same gender because I know that is who the kids will look at the most for duplicating their behavior. They cant help it, God and human nature are in control. So to answer t158sms question, next time respond by saying The SM of a troop must be held to the highest standards of character and human behavior that a committee can find because the boys will certainly take those qualities into their adulthood. Given the choice in a perfect world, a man should be the Scoutmaster in a Boy Scout troop. But in this real world, she is probably the best person to fit those qualifications and the families of that troop are lucky to have her. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Why 10-fold? Why not 2-fold...as in once for untrained men and once for untrained women?

>>The problem is that introduction is just that... an introduction.

>>The two new guys have no ties (older brother, friends, etc.) with the troop. Any help, advice, suggestions, as always, are greatly appreciated.

>>Among the classes I attended were "First Class, First Year", "How to Retain Older Scouts", and "The Patrol Method.">All things that should be and are covered elsewhere, and very little on the intended subject of the course.

Our experience is two new scouts can be added to a patrol before it adversly affects patrol dynamics. Our troop likes to mix new scouts into existing patrols unless we get more new scouts than two per patrol, or the new scouts just want to start their own patrol. Sounds like a pretty good SPL. Barry

Next to women in troops, bugling was a difference that really stuck out from experience as a youth. Even among 20 troops a camporees, not a single bugler. We tried really hard to get one in our troop and we had a couple, but they were nothing like the buglers we had in the 70s. Sometimes back then, we had two at a time which can make you tingle if done well. Yes, I'm afraid it is a lot art. Barry

Go to other troops close by and trade counselor list. This way you are going outside your troop but still getting experienced counselors. Barry

>>I've seen one troop where the Troop Scribe was responsible, working with the advancement chair.

Wow, there is some great stuff being written. Not to long ago there was a thread where we discussed the time it takes to build a Boy Run program. I think for those of us who have gone from rags to riches, we felt it was between 6 to 10 years. There is a reason it takes so long. You are building a cultural philosophy within your troop. Just because you say scouts are in charge doesnt mean they fully understand what that means. It is important to understand that boy run is different for each one of us and boys do not have any control of how boy run they can go. Its totally up to the adults and their willingness to grow. Boy Run is the freedom adults give the scouts to make decisions within the limitations of adults fears. How much scouts learn from their experience usually is a direct relation to how well adults learn to develop the scouts past the adult fears. Some adults feel scouts shouldnt perform a Flag Ceremony without adult supervision, other adults develop a PLC that function without adult intervention. The limitations of letting scouts make decisions for the other scouts in the troop rest on the willingness of adults to train scouts beyond the adults fears of failure. Cultural changes are not instant in troops because boys have been raised since birth to survive by relying on the directions and demands of adults. Now suddenly you are asking them to turn 180 degrees and survive by the decisions made from themselves. You will be amazed on how few decisions some of your new scouts ever made. No wonder we loose so many first year scouts. We are in a sense asking them to instantly become adults with the experience and wisdom of 30 years. Remember, most of the leadership and behavior skills your scouts use after the age 14, they learned between the ages 10 to 13. You didnt say how old your ASPL is, but I imagine you are having trouble because he is older and behaving more in the way of the old troop culture. My experience is older scouts dont change, they will bend a little, but they pretty much stay with in the boundaries of the old adult leadership. So dont kill yourself trying to change the old guard, put most of your energy developing the new guard. Again, you are developing a culture, so continue projecting that culture to everyone all the time as you said you have done, even the scouts. But not just for the others, but also for you. I always took questions and challenges about my vision as opportunities to reflect on the soundness of the vision. Can I justify the vision? A culture doesnt develop overnight, it takes years, and requires constant shaping. You might even call it brain washing. A new scout must understand and be constantly reinforced that he is responsible for the behavior and performance of all the scouts in the troop. If one scout is caught behaving badly and another scout nearby didnt stop that behavior, the other scout demands as much of a conference as the scout who misbehaved. That takes scouts a little while to learn in this me me world. So give yourself some room and develop patience. Work all the time on patience because a good SM never has enough. Understand that it is likely that what you put in the oven today, someone else will be pulling out later. Youre planting seeds of a crop that probably someone else will be harvest later. Dont be discouraged, I just went to our Troops 20th anniversary banquet and I watched a program that was being run by scouts using the same habits that we developed 12 years ago. That troop is still one of the most boy run and successful troops in the Council. I sat next to a man who was my SPL 10 years ago and he amazed that they were still running the same basic program that he led back then. You could see in his eyes that even he was surprised how proud he felt watching the SPL leading the ceremony. Many adults think they are shaping boys character, but they are foolish in thinking just how much power they have over a boys will. Truth is we only have one to one contact with scouts at best just a few minutes a month. So are our power is that we can instill a culture where boys practice habits that help them develop positive traits of character. There is no other program like the one you are shaping. But anything new and worthwhile requires consistent force to hold its shape until the foundation becomes firm enough to hold the weight of trial and error. 18 months? It took me 3 years to develop a PLC that could run meetings without a SM standing around to insure it followed some kind of agenda. First I had to get the scouts to understand how to write and agenda. Then they had to follow the agenda. Then they had to develop the skills to control the group so the meeting wasnt constantly interrupted by scouts who couldnt control their behavior. Then they had to learn how to evaluate their performance so they could adjust the meeting. Eventually adults were no longer required in the meeting for the program to just funtion. It takes years to develop a culture and the problem is, you probably wont be there, at least not in charge, to watch your vision become complete. But every good troop culture has to start from a solid philosophy so misdirection becomes obvious. It has to be nurtured long enough so that when it goes solo, the program continue toward the vision that was intended in the first place. Set the forms that shape the vision, drive the post that hold the philosophy true and pour the concrete that will hold the heavy weight of adversity because if you start it right today, you will be proud 10 years from now. Your work just doesnt have an effect of your scouts today, but for several years down the road long after your handprints inspired its direction. Everyone agrees, you are doing OK. Keep up the good work and maybe one day your SPL will be the SM of your vision. I Love this scouting stuff. Barry

Boy, sounds like you are doing everything right. That you talked to the scouts dad about his behavior tells me more about you and your style of scouting than anything else you wrote and Im impressed. Most adults need to understand that you are just one member of the families team in raising their son. I was very close to my scouts, but they knew there were no barriers between me and their parents when it came to their performance. We are all in this together. As for your questions, its hard to add to EagleInKy. your are visiualizing a perfect patrol. In reality, what you get is not near as pretty, but stay consistant. Your patrols will grow, you just have to keep them acting as a patrol. Keep the patrol leaders leading the patrols to assembly and activities. Have them hike together, eat together and so on. Try to keep them working together as patrols as much as you can. Eventally they will start to bond and see themselves as a group. But it does take time. I remember once at summer camp, one patrol decided to turn their caps inside out as a patrol. They did this mostly to get a reaction from me, but they were caught off guard by my praise for setting an example of a patrol working together. It will come. As for your ASPL: Remember your main job is behavior and character building. If nothing else, this scout is breaking a lot of scout laws and he needs to at least recognize that. He may be frustrated, but he needs to learn how to deal with his frustrations as a man of character, not a child using tantrums to get his way. Generally when we break laws of behavior, we are only serving ourselves, not the others. Great questions, I hope we are helping. Barry

>>cool activities including the new "Bikeathalon" where you ride a mountain bike with an air gun on your back and then you stop occasionally to shoot, much like the Olympic event, the Biathalon, except with bikes.

>>Maybe instead of presenting it in the church basement with powerpoint slides and bought pizza it would work better at camp or at least at the park and the boys cook their own lunch? just an idea to put the outing back in Scouting

>> Yah, first you need to get documentation from dad, and perhaps ask permission to speak to the treating physician/psychologist. This has nothin' to do with rank advancement, this is so that your adult (and key youth) leaders understand the boy's condition & medications enough to be able to help, support, and keep him safe on trips.

>>I no of NO ONE who uses flag signalling anymore, and that includes a couple of Fourth World threat nations.

Of course many have read my opinions of the Venturing Patrol and older scouts in general in the Troop. Im glad you mentioned the Cub Scout program and its effects on future Troops Eammon, that tells a lot about your insite learned from your experience. When the BSA change the Tiger program about 5 or 6 years ago, I was curious if that was going to negatively effect the Troop numbers. I am not involved enough to know, but I wish more folks would at least understand how little changes can make big waves. I agree with you that older scouts 16 and older are difficult for the troop program. I have for the last ten year been talking how I think the BSA misses the boat completely on the older scouts. You like the Venturing Patrol and Im curious what it is about that part of the program that appeals to you. From experience, it neither challenges the young adult mind or their spirit. It just seems to me an added program meant to pacify the older guys with entertainment to stay in the troop another year or two. It is patronizing at best. We have worked with the older scouts awhile and tried many different approaches. Eventually our older scout program was so successful that Council was sending all older scouts transferring into our area to our troop. We average five new scouts a year just in 14 year olds or older. From a numbers stand point, at one time we had more older scouts than any Troop, Venture Crew or Explorer program in our Council and I found myself fighting off council for a couple years trying to turn our older scout program it into a Crew. They didnt understand that our success came from the over all troop program, not just the older scout side of the program. I keep telling less experienced Troop Adult leaders that the success of the younger scouts in a boy run program is primarily based on the success of the older scout program. It is a circle that if cut anywhere, will affect the whole. You heard me say it before, but it goes like this; younger scouts rely on role models and examples to grow. If the troop doesnt have older scouts, then the adults must take up the slack. Problem is the more the adults are involved in, the less the program is boy run and the less they learn from the struggles and mistakes made learning how to run a troop program. Adults leaders by nature tend to be perfect in their performance and thus rarely look back on it to learn from the mistakes even if there were many. Even worse, adults arent very humble in front of boys because pride gets in the way. I think one of the best attributes of the adults in the troop is the willingness to learn from the scouts. It is a rare attribute. Anyways, a program that understands that young scouts learn by older role models put a high emphasis of quality on the older scouts. They are expected to be role models of integrity and moral responsibility. The older scouts are expected to control behavior and acknowledge both the good and bad behavior. The older scouts are expected to be the behavior role models of the program, not the adults. The older scouts are deeply rooted and connected to the actions and behaviors of all the scouts in the program just as the adults are rooted and connected to the behaviors of the cub scouts in the cub program. The success of the older scouts will produce the success of the rest of the program just like failure will lead to failure. The very title of Venture Patrol doesnt imply a program for all scouts, but for only special scouts. It implies a program of play without brotherly responsibility. It implies a game without a purpose. Until we adults understand the 16 year old scouts are adults, not boys and treat them as such, they will leave. You already pointed out that the ship is exciting to you because it is different from the troop. I imagine part of that difference is the scouts in your ship act more and are treated more like adults. Im betting you give them a lot of room to run their program. Do your adults in the troop do the same? Nope, the BSA and most adults in general dont really get it. Adding a Venture patrol was there way of saying I know your bored with the young guys, well go on and play, we will take care of them. As I said, the quality of the Troop program as a whole is based primarily on the older scout program. You want to judge how boy run a troop is, just watch the older scouts. Do they take charge of the troop or wait for the adults. Do they control behavior of all the scouts, or stand back and watch it? Do they suggest new directions for the program, of ask for permission to give an idea? Im not suggesting that working with older scouts is easy and the BSA is missing the boat. It isnt that it is easy or hard in fact, it is just different. Older scouts want to be treated like adults, but adults tend to view the scout troop program as basically repeating a first class training program over and over when in reality scouts need to be challenged as they grow. That is a hard concept to understand, and I think the BSA hasnt figured it out. I was reading the different views of the SMs responsibility of MB counselors on a different discussion. I was surprised on how much adults take upon themselves in the name of giving the scout a quality program. Instead of teaching and giving scouts the experience of judging quality and applying scout personal safety, the adults instead take on the responsibility themselves and deprive the scouts of those experiences and developed skills. They may have learned a skill from the MB, but the learned nothing toward life skills of survival of independent thinking they need later as an adult. We are just talking about meeting a counselor for a MB for goodness sake, can you imagine the real challenges of planning and running a program. Arent those the kinds of things we want our sons to learn? No wonder adults dont let older scouts take on adult responsibilities, they never taught them those skills in the first place. Reminds me of a SM I knew who was waiting until his scouts were 14 to let them lead the troop. When they reach that age, they quit from the sudden expectation of them because they hadnt developed any leadership skills that would give them that confidence to even try. I give the SM some credit, when he realized his error, he quit and told the committee to find someone who understood boy run better than he had. Am I disappointed in these types of adults? No, its not really in the training and while BSA says a lot of good things about a boy run program. It is implied, but not really taught. Maybe teaching and expecting independent thinking of youth and allowing them to learn the hard lessons from experience is a hard concept to expect in this day and age. Maybe it is a philosophy that our culture in general is no longer willing to accept for our children. I think it is realistic to suggest that our culture has regressed just enough that the boy run part of scouting is too progressive for our culture anymore. I am glad you are enjoying the Ship program. I think you deserve to enjoy working and mentoring young adults who want and need your wisdom. I know that I would push for my kids to be involved with adult such as you. I see you feeling the frustrations of watching possibilities fading as the program progresses through the years. You are a romantic with the same visions of Badon Powell and want to understand why the visions seem so far away. I think this is a good topic to ponder and maybe learn something from each other. Maybe youve taken a step toward changing the a small part of our world. You proven to us you are certainly capable. Have a great week. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>And if an completed blue card came back without my signature I would have to question the Scout as to what he learned & why he switched counselors.

>> If the MB has the final word what is it the SM is signifying with his second signature? Remember the requirement for Star is to EARN 6 merit badges not obtain 6 merit badge application cards signed by an approved MBC.