Eagledad

Wow! Eamonn, that was really good. I wish we had a course to teach that kind of scouitng stuff, but I'm afraid that Wisdom 101 is a prerequisite and that takes time. Barry

"My take is that it probably isn't better or worse, just different." I agree with everything Lisabob says, and not because my name was Barrybob in my first course. The old WB course also taught leadership skills, but they were pretty much were all personal skills. The present course, while spends some time on personal skills, spends a lot of time on team developement skills and team leadership skills. To me the main difference is the new course teaches concepts that apply equally to new units struggling to get get momentum as well as the units already cruising from successful leadership. Barry

Anyone who is creative and likes to work with their hands will really enjoy this badge. In fact, I think it would be one of the most popular crafts badges at summer camp because you can make so many things from composite type materials. Scouts will learn that much of the exquipment from back packs, canoes, bows, tent parts to boots, climbing gear, most water sport gear, bikes, even tools like axe and saw handles. Its easy to shape and the chemical processes is fun to watch. It is an area where Engineering is really expanding. Barry

>>is it actually complete since a requirement wasn't done? I say no.

>>CalicoPenn, I understand the idea that the MB is "completed" when signed by the MBC, even if no actual work was done...but would you really sign an advancement report including such a MB if you actually knew that no work was actually done? If I did so, I would be making a false statement--that the record met the "standards and requirements" of the BSA.>I hear this grumble all over. IMO I think National needs to address this. Time to put the values back into scouts.

This is an interesting subject. I was just having a conversation with a good friend of mine who I think was the best CD our council has ever had. I mentioned a couple future course directors that I would have thought needed some time yet before they took on that responsibility and I asked him why they were selected at this time. Now don't get me wrong, when I think of the best CD, Eamonn comes to mind first and I compare all CDs to him. The folks I speak of are like Eamonn and will lead a good course, they just have a lot going on now in areas of scouting that I think should have the full attention toward the boys. My friend told me the restrictions National has for CDs dramatically limits the pool from which to select these folks. That is when he asked me to consider working toward jumping in that pool. That is when I changed subjects to something non-scouting. As to the question, I guess WB does take some personal time, but I didn't find it all that much more time consuming compared to the old WB course that took twice the amount of time from the staff, or taking time to attend a summer camp. Yes, you do make friends, but more than that to me, you make a difference for hundreds, if not thousands of youth out there needing leaders. One troop guide gets to make a difference to six or seven adult leaders who get to work with six or seven adults in their units who get to work with dozens of boys. Can you imagine how just one word during one lesson can have some kind of impact on so many boys? Very powerful. Barry

Thanks for all the kind replies. Your words Beav really ring true. Everytime I read your post, I think our Council has a great future. Eammon, I always enjoy your words because in many way I feel we came from the same mold, but I was the sent to the states. I can't think of who I would have said was my role model back in college. Looking back now, I can pick several. My dad is on that list, but I didn't understand that until I was a father. I have noticed my 23 year old starting to understand our family as well. In a time when many of his friends come from divorced families, he has been asking a lot about how we raised our kids. I guess I want to be a hero, but I have never looked at it that way. I will say that I have told my kids many times that I am their dad and not their best friend. I'm sure you all understand those moments. I have always looked at scouting as a fun way to prepare boys for the future. I know that I didn't do the job to get the praise. I know most of you are the same. But honestly, I did sit down and wonder just how we as scouters could make that much difference in a boys life. I think it must be like what Beav and Eammon are saying, it's not just one wonderous moment that does it, but many little moments that we don't even record in our own brain. Maybe it is the consistancy to live what we preach, and to admit our shame when we don't. I worked with so many boys and I run into them all the time. I used to say to adults all the time that we are making better men to be fathers, leaders of the community and workers in their companies. We are building citizens of character and leaders of integrity. It seems now that those boys I spoke of then have grown into men. That time is here and I am going to be confronted with my past performance. When I became a SM, I thought a lot about my SM and hoped I could be as good as him. I decided to look him up and found the phone number of his son who was one of my best friends back then. It turns out my SM had died of cancer just a few month pryer. Even more interesting, I had been working in a building one block from where he worked. Time is short, but I wanted to give him credit for my being a SM. I not sure he was a hero to me, but I know that I wanted to be a SM just like him. Yeah, I guess he was hero. I'm sitting here at the computer and raising my coffee mug to you. Here is to all you heros out there. As Jeffery said, thanks for giving all your time. Barry

HI All I had a wonderful weekend last week. I was invited to present a scout his Eagle during a troop Eagle COH. That is unusual for our troop because even though our scouts and their families plan the COH to their taste and needs, usually the father presents the Eagle with a short tribute following. This all started years ago when one father gave a very tearul tribute to his son and now all the moms since have forcefully incourage the same for all the scouts. I didn't ask questions, I only replied that I was honored. But I did wonder why this family was breaking tradition. To add to this, four scouts were getting their Eagle during the same ceremony and this scout was the only one whose father was not giving tribute. I've known this scout and his family for a long time. He is a good father who has supported his son as well as our troop and program. So I wondered what it was all about. I guess the mother and Scout knew I would be confused because wHen I walked into the church about 45 minutes before the ceremony, the scout and his mother approached me at the door. They both told me that I was asked to present the Eagle and the tribute because if it not for me, he would not be recieving his Eagle today. I told them that it was not me, but everyone in the troop. They however, would not accept that and made it clear, I got all the credit. I didn't know how to respond. I know some part of me was gleming with pride, but I can honestly say I was quieted and uncomfortable from their very very kind words. This scout to me an average boy, getting into a little trouble once in a while by pushing the limits, but also admitting his deeds and growing from his trials. He wasn't a difficult scout at all, in fact I liked they way he brought color into lives of those around him. He was a pretty good leader and he was respectful of all others. He is a pretty good kid, now a man in college. So what did I do that stands out from the rest of our hard working team of adults? I can't say honestly. I can only say that when I was a SM, I felt the obligation to be a team leader and that we were all rewarded for the performance of our scouts. The present SM of the troop is no slacker, I think he is better than I was, he is a great SM. While I am reaping the rewards of my one hour a week, I think I would rather this family gave credit to the whole team, and not just me, I don't know why. Isn't this the kind of payback we lust from all the hard work? Can we make that much difference? Such a flurry of emotions has rushed through me the last few days. I can only sum all this up by saying; Oh how I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>This year at summer camp we had a leader in our site that flew the "Jolly Roger" (skull & cross-bones).

This is a strange thread to me because my Patrol when I was a youth was the rebel patrol. That was in the early 70s , what about 15 years ago, and no one ever thought anything about it. Our patrol flag was a small Confederate battle flag. Sometimes its sad how times change. The BSA even offered a patrol patch with a rebel flag on it. I still have a shirt with that patch. Barry

Do a Google search on NEA gays. Barry

>>Make sure your meetings are fast paced, no more than 10-15 minutes on any one task.

Hi All Seems like everyone except the forum is getting blamed for this mistake. But the job descrition of the BOR is to verify the scout completed all the requirements, so that is where the cog failed in the machine. Clearly the scout needs some counseling if he didn't say anything and the adults need training to understand their role and policies of their responsibilities. I'm not sure why having a scout arrange the BOR for himself is like bypassing the SM, he still has to prove he completed all the the requirements, which includes a SM signature. Arranging the BOR doesn't mean it should be out of the scouts hands. In a world where everything is done for our youth, initiating action is a skill that needs to be learned and that still doesn't take away from the SM talking with the AC. Every unit makes mistakes, the better units change to prevent the next mistake. As for the scout, I'm not sure taking back the rank would be a positive move for anyone, but I certainly would counsel him with my disapointment and ask him for suggestions to what he can do about it. If he thinks he is man enough to take advantage of the situation, he certainly his man enough to answer the tough questions. Barry

After a few years of working with parents, we learned to put the new leaders in kind of a troop training for the first couple of months. It pretty much is what Venividi is suggesting. The SM or a very experience ASM usually has coffee ready for the new leaders at meetings and holds them together to discuss troop proceedures. I like the pie idea. It is better with the SM because it shows how well the Troop functions under the leadership of the SPL and PLC. But the SM has confrences to attend also so a good ASM is needed. We spend time watching a PLC meeting and discussing how it worked, who led and the role of the one of adult (SM) in the meeting. We show them how Patrol Corners works and discuss that as well. This is a good time to do all the basic trainings as well including safe swim, Merit Badge Counselors, and even understanding G2SS. We try and let the adults watch each part of the scout meeting for a couple of months and encourage discussion so that we can explain the value of how the adults fit in. We try to encrourage the new adults to basically watch for at least six months before they start diving in. A year in some jobs. But I find that summer camp is pretty much where the new adults really start to understand "boy run" and the light bulb turns on. Many troops put new leaders in charge of NSPs, but we put our most experienced and best leaders in charge of that group. Many troops like to get the adults active right off the bat and I agree if they aren't close to the boys. I found that boy run just takes a little while to understand. Once they get it, then they get if well. It is important that the SM talk to the adults a lot of the hows and whys so that all the adults understand and buy in to the goals of the program. It is also important the New Parents who aren't involved in leadership still understand the program as well. Most problems occure from the mysteries of the program like why don't parents get more calls or why isn't their son earning rank faster? I think at least one parents meeting per month for the first three months works really well. The "getting ready for summer camp" meeting being the last. After that everybody is pretty much on board. Good question. Barry Barry

I don't think that is a train coming, it is opportunity with a flash light coming to help. Now is the time to teach why you do scouting the way you do. The SM carries the torch of philosophy for the troop. Most folks do not want that responsibility, so they take a part on the committee. But most people get excited to be part of a program when the philosophy make sense. I like to teach that a successful SM spends at least 50% of his/her time talking with the adults because troops run so much better when everyone feels a part of the SMs program. Yep, most SMs would love to see that light coming. Your scouts are going to have a great year. Barry

This is one of those kinds of situations where I think all the leaders need to sit down and understand their role to the pack. I'm not trying to push Wood Badge, but this is where the course teaches the Four Phases of Team Building. Step one (Forming) is getting organized and understanding 1. the goal of the pack, and 2. what each person's role is toward that goal. Step 2 (Storming) which is usally where the team hammers out each others boundaries to their roles or jobs. The more your team understands the team goal and their specific part to the team at the begining of the team building, the less storming or frustration each member of the team will have to endure as the pack works with your sons. So I suggest getting everyone, not just the SM, but everyone to a meeting to read and learn what the BSA says is the pack's goal, and what each persons responsibilities are toward reaching that goal. Let the discussion start after that. Hope that helps. Barry

>>Scoutmaster and Committee Chair need to get their act together and then talk with this parent together.

>>Its often easier to admit to misbehaving than admit to being dumb.

>>Mission statements and visions are nothing more than fluff

>>When it finally comes to a head the adults, being human, are just not willing to listen to an explanation from the boy who just stepped on their last nerve and is having a run in with a boy that has not caused any trouble at all. It is not fair but it is understandable.

I always wondered why baseball managers got away with so much before getting kicked out. Its because some bad behavior is OK, just now all bad behavior. Thanks for the explanation. I have one too. Our local soccer association had trouble with the refs not calling bad language. Most of the problem occurred from the older teenage refs who also played the game. It was found they allowed the language because they like to use it themselves. The refs said it was hard to punish players on some words while not on other words, so they pretty much left that rule alone. The parents had a different idea and now no bad language is allowed. To the parents it was all bad, so they forced the association to act. I think what you are really saying OGE is it is up to the adults of the unit to use what ever ability and creativity within their means to restrict a boys behavior. I will accept that. I remember a scouter here once said that if scouts were talking after lights out, they were threatened with being sent home. I remember thinking that talking after lights out was one of my favorite ways of teaching the SPL how to control his scouts. I guess we all have different a straw that breaks the camels back. Barry

I think we adults don't carry the baggage of adolescences like competing for position within the group and working past the urge to sit when voluntarily helping a patrol mate cook or do KP makes the patrol method more fun for the group. It is easy for adults because we want a functioning team and we are willing to make that happen. Youth struggle with the idea of their friend telling them what to do. I think what is really important is taking the feeling of the experience and working to find that within your scouts. Dont duplicate your experience, but instead work the patrol the boys method until they achieve the same excitement and satisfaction with their patrols. I had a discussion with a professional scouter who told me one big reason they change WB was because they saw too many problems with adults going back and trying to duplicate their experience of WB on to the boys. Instead of using the independence designed into the patrol method, the adults unintentionally were restricting patrol method by forcing the boys to function like thier WB experience. Have a great day. Barry

>>I didn't think SM or ASM's needed to be detectives I just thought they needed to be fair.

Looking at the discussion and how I worked with simular situations in our troop, the word that hangs me up here is punishment. I guess I've looked at our program growth in wisdom by experience, not changes encourage by fear of retribution. Not that there isn't punishment in the program because we all have to account for our actions one way or the other, that is life. But scouting is a place to change from our own self motivations, not from fear of someone else. But in this situation and most like it, some are trying to hard to find a punishment for all the players when I feel what you really want is the scouts to understand the failure of holding each other accountible. If a scout misuses a knife and does some damage to equipment, he deserves to be held accountible by some kind of action. But the scouts around him, while didn't act to stop him, also need to be held accountible for allowing the act to take place in the first place. Problem is the motivation of the one lone scout is different from the others. Whether ignorance or hesitation, they are two different acts of making a wrong choice, so that required different methods of accountibility. Our job is to teach the wisdom of the right choice in most all the actions of the scouts, and to be consistant. Eammon may be right in that a scout may have many reasons why he didn't stop the other scout and thus punishment could only make things worse. But the scout still made the wrong choice and there must be an understanding of that as well as the results from that choice. Punishment? Honestly, I'm not sure I ever used that word in scouting even for the worst of behaviors. I'm a big picture kind of person and to me the decision to allow the scout cut the tent was worse in the big picture than the act itself because the inability for the other scouts to stop the scout. For what ever reason, they didn't stop the misbehavior. Theoretically, the SM is the Master Scouter or leader of wisdom for the troop. It is this time when the scout must learn and understand why each scout failed each other. SCouting is a brotherhood and these scouts did not act like brothers. In the larger picture, if the scouts don't learn to act now, how will they learn it as adults in their community? HOw will they learn to stand up and say hey, that is wrong? I found that in general, our youth are not taught or given permission to hold others accountible. Adults always take on the role of judement and givers of accountibility, be it punishment or praise. This is particularly a problem in boy run programs because no matter how much we tell the scouts they are encharge, in the back of their mind they are only encharge until the adults judge that they are doing it wrong and take it back over. I know it took three years before I felt the scout started to trust they the adults wouldn't step in and take it back over. But I find most adults do react by taking over. The problem here is we never really allow our youth to be our brothers keeper. Our children are waiting for the adults to takeover, just as they did in the case here. We have not given the youth permission to be a judge and to act on other peoples behaviors. We serve our children but we don't let them practice serving others. No wonder parenting is so hard, our generation today doesn't know how to say stop, that will hurt you. It took me three kids to figure out how to change behavoir without raising my voice. Thank goodness the girl came last because she is the hardest. So is it really fair to punish the scouts who didn't stop the one scout. Is it fair to assume that one friend should have put his friendship on the line to stop the other friend when likely that scout never has been expected to act like that before. Do these scout understand the idea of serventhood all the time. We talk about the Scout Law a lot, but how many times do we talk about doing our best to God, county and helping other people at ALL times. The oath teaches us that serving others before ourselves is the only unselfish way to serve ourselves. It is a complete 180 turn from how our youth are raised. Who knows what was going through their minds, but I as the SM, I have the power and ability to set a vision of expectation in the minds of all my scouts. Every scout should be set on equal footing to see the vision and understand reason behind it. We adults need to give permission to be noble. The choice to stand up and speak against your friend takes courage and that action needs its rewards. But even more important is the action to acknowledge that the friend standing up to stop your action is right. There is nobility in being humble and that I think takes even more courage. The rewards of humility needs its own acknowledgement or it will always be seen a weak or foreign. How can boys understand this concept if someone doesn't set in the scouts minds and explain its virtues? Does this dicussion change if we for the moment replace punishment with accoutibility or understanding? Punishment is retribution, accountibility is acknowledgement of understanding. The whole idea of scouting is encouraging scouts to change their behavior for the rewards of better character. We can't change their behavior for them, we can only show the wisdom in them taking charge and doing it. They have to make the change and the only way they will do that is to understand the cause and effects of values. THere is great value in being our brother's keeper and the lesson here shouldn't be missed. Have a great weekend all. Barry

Night camporees are always fun just because they are so completely different from the usual campout. Any theme can work really. We've done a few, but Cliff Golden who is on this list has done several. I think he used to have a Web Site. Barry