Eagledad

>>I commend the SM for wanting to have the boys all trained but I can't imagine making a boy sit through Troop Guide training every six months for as longs as the boy is a Troop Guide.

>>However the Pack Committee sees nothing wrong with the CMs actions.

>>You're either religious and a Republican or you are not religious? Where did that come from?

OK, do I understand right, you are considering taking the course that you have already staffed because the course may not make? This is a new one on me, but I can't help feel the time would be better spent helping a struggling unit or district committee. I'm really courious to read Eamonn's (WB guru) opinion on this. How would the CD pick a patrol for a person with your experience? Barry

>>Hi! I'm a religious person on the left. And there are a lot more of us. We just don't tend to wear it on our sleeve.

>>The few times that gay marriage "won" was when it was legislated from the bench -- one wonders how exactly *that* is supposed to square with hearing from both sides?

At one time we took a count and found that four of our families had three brothers in our troop, and eight other families with at least two. I could never bring myself to ask these families to buy more than one subscription of Boy's Life. Barry

Ah the memories. Anyone who is a scouter in Oklahoma understands that the University of Oklahoma/TEXAS game is a holiday weekend of which nothing is planned unless the activity is within five feet of a 25 inch or greater TV. I've been told is required by state law. The PLC of my troop as a boy made the error scheduling our campout on that weekend. It quickly became obvious that there wasn't going to be any adults unless something was done, and a generator and TV showed up on that beautiful Oklahoma fall day as well as the usual dozen or so adults. Barry

>>Then it was Wolf, Bear, Lion, Webelos/Arrow of Light. The Lion/Webelos book was combined. WeBeLoS stood for "Wolf, Bear, Lion, Scout".

>> Eagledad, Thanks for the inquiry about who I am, but that is irrelvant to the message.

GO OUTSIDE AND PLAY! What a great marketing theme for the BSA. Maybe the BSA could start a movement. Imagine a series of 2 second video clips of scouts hiking, climbing, rapelling, biking, scuba diving, sailing, cooking, backpacking, canoeing, building a fire, singing by the fire, on and on and on. Imagine a series of pictures of the same thing in the local paper. Just Do It! Nike Go Outside and Play! Scouting Barry

Hi Brianbuf. What is your scouting experience? About how old are you, give or take? What does Brianbuf stand for? Thanks Barry

>>But you CAN pull all the parents together to explain your vision, and how it will benefit their sons. And acceptance that everyone sees things differently, and conversations are the only way for the group to learn from past and agree on steps to improve in the future.

Me, Me, I've been in almost the exact same place except we went from 16 to 35 the first year and 25 more the next. You are in a very challenging place and that you are asking about it shows how you are trying to get ahead of the game. I think beavah gave great advice you need to use, but it doesn't apply to the first six months of your next new group. Lets face it, your program is going to change. It has to just to keep up with the numbers. So start pow wowing with the adults and prepare for it. We were not prepared and lost 50% of our new scouts in four months. We just weren't ready for all the news scouts running around asking lots of questions and wanting to do scouting stuff now. We weren't ready to get in our minds to help the PLC and adult control and communicate with that many boys. We are very boy run, so it just overwhelmed us. It looks like you are the way we were and your troop is young, so youth leadership is still getting their feet under them as well. Make sure your meeting place can handle at least 80 scouts or so. You may try to limit your program, but I would suggest yo u instead prepare for continued success. Make sure you can handle at least six to eight patrol corners. Get a system going for drivers for campouts. Don't over react and go out and get the biggest trailer in town, instead get rid of the patrol boxes and start using plastic tubs. We actually use milk crates. But get your gear to a size for a small trialer with the idea that the cars can carry gear as well. Big trailers require big cars that you may or may not have, but you will need the cars to haul boys, might as well carry some gear. If you must have trailers, we learned from another large troop to by several small ones so you can add or takeaway as the size requires. Get trailers that minivans can pull, no larger. Get a good adult in charge of camping logistics. First thing that person does is recruit at least one adult for each month to help arrange the campout and collect the money at each meeting. You must recruit this help because it will be a lot for one person. I believe our Camping Chairman, and I was it for a while, is the hardest working adult in the troop. Get three months ahead on planning because some places can't accept large groups and the sooner you know, the sooner the PLC can change plans. You will have a lot of cars going to camp now and we learned a lot. Do not caravan because most wrecks happen in caravans. Give every driver a map and an expected time of arrival to camp. We found if one car follows another and they get seperated, it may take hours to sort it out. Just a map and send them on their way. All our cars showed up with in 30 minutes even on our 500 mile drives to New Mexico. You can arrange to meet for gas or food along the way if you want, but remember stores don't like 40 socuts rushing in all at once. Our PLC was in charge of uniform polocy except for travel. We found that clerks just got very nervious with a lot of boys, so ask the PLC to insist on uniform so the clear knew who's adults they belong to. Give your drivers medical imformation on each scout in the car in case, which should include all the appropiate pnone numbers. Get your adults of the mind that you are going to have a million kids running around. That means everything will take longer until they learn the system. Don't get loud, don't get angry, just help the patrol leaders get their guys together. Have a training meeting with the adults and PLC and discuss how each other is going to work the group. The SPL should not be yelling and he needs to get in the habit of asking patrol leaders to quiet their patrol. Not yell at each individual scout. Make the PLC work together. If that isn't working, the ASPL needs to work his way around to that patrol and help the patrol leader so the SPL is not interrupted. If that still doesn't work and sometimes new scouts are just excited, the SM needs wonder over and ask the ASPL if he needs help. If that doesn't work, one of you guys quietly ask the scout or scouts to leave the room so you can talk to them. These are good leadership practices anyways, but until your troop gets its feet back, it has to be kind of expected and pushed. Practice this with the PLC before the new scouts show up. Also practice how an ASM can sort of help the young PL get his guys together when it is time for the meeting. It takes about three months for everyone to figure it out. Now, the hardest part of all this is the temptation for the adults to take over. You don't need to, just fill in where maturity and experience haven't developed yet. But never take the floor away from the SPL without first asking. The quicker everyone learns the SPL IS the leader, the faster respect for the youth leadership will develop. One way of getting in the habit of this teach the adults to never put their sign up first, but instead wait for a youth leader. If an adult has the floor but really needs the boys to quiet down, the adult ask the SPL or highest ranking youth leader in a very quiet tone of whisper to get control or quiet the scouts. Don't give up the boy run part of the program because you feel overwhelmed by the numbers. Our meetings aveaged 50 scouts and we never yelled. The scout just learned to ask for help. Get ready for a lot of money. I mean if you don't have a good treasuring system and treasure, get one now because your troop will be handleing several thousand dollars just at next summer camp. My wife (a CPA) was our treasure and after ten years, she figure she processed over 50000 checks. That is a lot of checks. Get software and someone to use it and get control before you start. Your treasure will get a lot of calls about money and it can be imbarrasing if they don't know what they are doing. 40 scouts exchange a lot of money just for a simple campout. Finally, have a honest meeting with all the adults. Parents included and explain what is about the happen. It is a good thing, but you want to be ready. Let them know that this will be challenging and take some time for learning. There will be some frustrating times, but allow some time for adjusting. I wish we had done this with our first group and I don't think we would have lost so many. We did do it with our second large new group and we didn't loose hardly any. If you think you have a good program, then tell them that. But it must be understood that adding that many new scouts takes some adjustment. Once they understand that, they will stand back a little during those difficult moments. Can it all be done, you bet. Our Troop Grew from 15 to 50 in four years after loosing at least 30 scouts in those years. Our program kept doing well and we averaged 20 new scouts a year for eight years. When I left as SM after about 10 years, we had 94 scouts on the roster. In a distict of 20 troops, we were the third largest troop in our third year. We kept that place even after I quit with 94 scouts on the roster. In all those years, we never went recruiting new scouts. Our programs reputation just kept bringing them in. And I want to point out that we were considered the most boy run troop in the council of 350 troops. So it can be done. W never set limits, but we didn't recuit as I said. We also raised the rates to join. But honestly, I never heard anyone say that was and issue. If they wanted a good boy run program, they joined. IF a family couldn't afford us but wanted our troop, we help them out. We never turned anyone away, but is sure was tempting. I wrote somethng about this a few years ago on another forum and I notice someone else has post that thread and a couple others on their Web Site. Got to http://www.scoutingideas.com/doku.php and look for "Troop Size and Program--Facts & Myths" It might have something in there that will help, I don't know. OK! I wrote this while my wife was yelling supper, so I hope it reads well enough to understand. I have been where you are at and I wish we had forums back then. Good luck I love this scouting stuff. Your oldest scouts

>>But it was not until one chilly autumn night with the smell of wood smoke in the air that I heard the Eagle Patrol singing in the distance and something "clicked." For the first time in my life I "understood" the Patrol Method. This was not a theoretical understanding.

I love that song. My favorite part is the silky tights part. So, what critter did you get? Barry

>> Other than that, they are great DL's. Regardless, what we have is working.

>>then a troop of 100 lukewarm, middle of the road, could care less, speed through the dorkiness, quit as soon as my parents let me, scouts.

Our Troop is in the habit of giving staves of onor to scouts and scouters for such ocassions. Barry

Hi All I think this is good stuff and I enjoy reading other folks opinions in an area I have so much passion. If I may, the fallacies I see in the results are that they are basically opinions of a few, if not one adult. Not data or facts based from polls or questioning of groups and individuals. I mean to say that uniforms are basic reason boys rather go somewhere else like sports, or girls really makes no sense in a program where they can go rapelling, canoeing and even scuba. But I see these kinds of subjects come up all the time, we have our opinions and we want to do better in an organization that has so much to offer our children. The problem is we dont think like boys and we dont get in the shoes so many adults. Go get the facts. I know this because I spent a lot of time asking scouts why and why not. One example to explain what I mean is the huge loss of Webelos to scouts. As much as 50% in many councils. We heard the same old tired excuses that boys of the 10 and 11 year age chose sports over scouts. But when I went and interviewed Webelos, lots of them. I found that boys ready to quit scouts were just plain bored going to Webelos meetings, sitting and doing crafts. AT the same time the boys excited to join Troops enjoyed their meetings of learning skills like cooking and fire building, riding bikes and hiking in a nearby park. They camped, fished and went on site-seeing trips. After a while you start to see a picture. And on the front side, you would jump to the conclusion that it must be lousy adults or lousy training, but then I went and talked leaders of both the successful dens and the not so successful dens. I found that the majority of the less successful dens were mothers who started their Cub Leadership experience in Tigers and by the time the reached the Webelos age, they were just plain burned out. I also found out through a little research that a volunteer organization can expect the average enthusiastic volunteer to give about three years. Now go look at the Cub Scout plan and you find that Tigers to Bears is three years. On top of all that, 90 percent of Cub Leaders are women who dont know how to tie knots, build fires, cook on fires, sleep in a tent in the cold and heat and dont like to go to the bathroom behind a bush. The Cubs have created the perfect storm by combining burned out non outdoorsy mothers and Webelos at the 4th year of Cub Scouts. If you interview boys, or adults for that matter, you find that we look at the expectation of our future by our present experience. If we are having a boring time in scouts now, we see our future with the same expectation and start looking to jump ship. Use to Cub scouts was three years long. The BSA has since added first graders (Tigers) and Second year Webelos. Five years is a long time for that age group and it takes a lot of cleaver design and enthusiasm to keep adults excited to be creative enough to hold the interest of boys who rather dream of running in the woods then sit at a table doing crafts. It took me several years to learn all that and it is not my opinion based on my personal biases of what is fun and not fun. I just simply went out and start talking and interviewing scouts and adults to find out what is really going on. I have also done this at the older scout age and let me just say that know matter what uniform the BSA picks, the boys wont like it because that is how they are designed in the 13 to 15 year age group. Its not just their uniform; it is the clothing mom buys and the close the pick out for themselves at the mall also. Just go watch your son get dressed in the morning. How they dress during that age identifies who they think they are. You really think the BSA can make that work for the majority of boys? Boys who hang in scouting past puberty basically have no trouble with uniforms. Sit down and talk to them and listen. I mean really listen because they wont give you a direct answer, it is between the lines. What I learned is two basic things about older scouts that we adults dont do a very good job doing. They dont want to repeat the first two or three years of a basic first class type program, and they want to respected as and adult. Not repeating their first year doesnt mean they dont want to work with younger scouts, because I find they actually enjoy serving. What they mean is dont make them follow the younger scouts through their same old experience, which means they feel like baby sitters while doing all that first class type stuff AGAIN. Older scout should be serving the troop by leading and running it. Older scouts should be doing what most adults are doing. Give them the responsibility of success and failure of the team and they will rise to the occasion and relish the experience because there is no other place or program that has that opportunity. Think about it for a minute, where else can a boy who has the biology of a man go to do adult work. The troop is perfect really, but 90% of them wont give the older scouts those kinds of responsibility or respect. Second, treat them like adults. Nothing feels worse than feeling like an adult but being talked down to all the time. Talk eye to eye and ask questions instead of telling them your opinion. Treat them just as you treat the ASMs and the Committee adults and watch as they stand in ah. ALLOW them to make a difference as adults, not as boys and you will see older scouts excited to be older scouts in your unit. Problem is our culture now sees a boy stay a boy until high school graduation. 50 years ago a 15 year old was running a farm, today we tell them when to go to bed. When you are serious about finding the real problems, you got to ask what the boys want and what the adults are giving. You have to listen and read between the lines. Ignore you feelings like songs and uniforms because that is small stuff to boys. They may or may not like that depending on their age, but they are bigger than that. Boys are dreamers and dreamers arent driven by songs and uniforms. They are driven by the ability to see their dreams come true and the freedom to find themselves. More than anything else we humans are in search of what we are. Scouting is perfect for that when the adults get out of the way. Songs, uniforms, scarfs and all that other stuff is just little bits of spice that add flavor. It is the meal that keeps or drives off scouts. Look at the meal. Not to long ago I read someone on this forum say that thank goodness the Tigers can wear the blue shirts now, otherwise she, the mother, the adult, would not have joined cubs. The blue shirt? If we are loosing numbers, look at the whole picture. Have you notice that the Tiger program has changed shapes five times in the dozen or so years. Have you notice that Webelos are still loosing about 50% of the scouts before the Troop age? We arent asking the right questions? Have a great week all. Barry

I think our troop is above average in high adventure. When I look at all the adults involved in the past, I would say just about all of them had little or no experience starting out. When we wanted to do a trek, we went on an established trek or found an adult who trained us. Ask other Troops if your scouts can go along on a trek or arrange a trek with another Troop that may have the experience. The adults are out there, you just need to find them. I am no longer active in my troop, but I have been asked to train and lead a trek to the Northern Tier next summer. I'm going to ask the guy the trained me if he wants to lead a second crew as well. The adults who go along will be the leaders for the next crews. Barry

>>If the boys are used to troop cooking or adult cooking then this might be a hard thing to wean them from. But I've noticed that, while my son doesn't love cooking for the patrol and detests the shopping part, it has taught him organizational and leadership skills (as well as cooking skills) although I'm not sure he'd see it that way. Not to mention, he appreciates a "mom-cooked" meal so much more! So I'd say it is worth it.

Wow! Eamonn, that was really good. I wish we had a course to teach that kind of scouitng stuff, but I'm afraid that Wisdom 101 is a prerequisite and that takes time. Barry

"My take is that it probably isn't better or worse, just different." I agree with everything Lisabob says, and not because my name was Barrybob in my first course. The old WB course also taught leadership skills, but they were pretty much were all personal skills. The present course, while spends some time on personal skills, spends a lot of time on team developement skills and team leadership skills. To me the main difference is the new course teaches concepts that apply equally to new units struggling to get get momentum as well as the units already cruising from successful leadership. Barry

Anyone who is creative and likes to work with their hands will really enjoy this badge. In fact, I think it would be one of the most popular crafts badges at summer camp because you can make so many things from composite type materials. Scouts will learn that much of the exquipment from back packs, canoes, bows, tent parts to boots, climbing gear, most water sport gear, bikes, even tools like axe and saw handles. Its easy to shape and the chemical processes is fun to watch. It is an area where Engineering is really expanding. Barry