Eagledad

>>well the benefit i see to a patrol of 1st years is that they would all be on the same page in terms of advancement.

80 to 90 percent of what a boy learns in a hands-on program like Troops is learned by watching other people perform in natural settings. Boys in New Scout patrols learn about 40% as much as scouts in mixed age patrols because the scouts in mixed age patrol have constant role models to watch. Boys in same age patrols only learn when someone (adult or troop guide) come in to instruct them in a school type format. And the boy scout experience is not near as much fun when you have to sit and listen to teachers all the time just to learn simple skills. Its rare to find a good boy run troop th

Can you explain why you think the buddy system is required in a tent? I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but we only incourage the buddy system when the scout leaves the campsite. I always tried to look at things like this under the definition of: does it help the scouts practice fitness, citizenship and character? Not sure this subject fits under citizenship or character, but I can see it being a fitness issue. One might look at it as a safety where one scout helps another if one gets sick. However, I personally see a boy growing in maturity by practicing independence, self-relience

>> then you should stick with our current Webelos III program

I don't really know the answer, but the most fun I've had with being an adult role model for a boy run group is High Adventure Crews. Now I admit they don't stay together long, but the bonding and character growth that goes on during that week is tremendous. Barry

Yes, I guess we have to agree to disagree, but if you take a look at every scouting youth organization in North America that gave in the political correctness pressure, you find none of those organizations numbers grew after the change. In fact some of them suffered dearly to the point of struggling to survive. So whether or not there really is a public perception problem with BSA stand on gays, history alone suggest change is not worth the risk. I'm not sure that there is a public perception problem. Oh sure the activist have done their job well to bring to light BSA stand, but is the co

You have got some really great advice so far. We started by doing some back packing on campouts and then growing out by looking for camps that customized a trek for our younger group. Camp Frank Rand in New Mexico was a great experience. BUT, looking back on it, the boys aren't as much the problem as the adults. Adults have to be motivated as well to have a good adventure troop program and by starting small, you give the adults time to learn and build experience. High Adventure is expensive just in the gear alone, so you can scare a lot of folks away if you take on to much to fast.

Wow Kudu, I cant put my (bewilderment?) into words. I never read so much, misdirection and hibbery jibbery just to say, Yep, Barry and I disagree. At least I think we disagree, I can't really tell. >>The equal importance theory was introduced to use Hillcourt's invention of the "Methods of Scouting">In Kudu's camp the same thing happens WITHOUT business theory. Scouts don't jump ahead in time machines; it is easy to see a potential leader blossom as he takes on responsibility.>No, Eagledad, "Every Boy a Leader" means a Patrol scaled down to the Cub Scout level.>The Eagledad

>>What faith-based morality have they abandoned, specifically?

>>What would constitute coming back to their senses?

>>The theory that all of the Methods are "equal" was introduced in 1972, presumably to garner respect for the questionable new "Leadership Development"

>>it just looks to me like another org set up to make a political statement, and IMO using children to further politics is the worst kind of heinous.

I wish you luck Stosh because this is a time of true reflection. I believe that before anything else, a scouting program has to be fun to grow. Your "roll up your sleeves" comment kind of suggest a work first play later program and that just doesn't work with boys. Doesn't really work that well with adults either in the long term. "Leadership performance" has to be a result of practice in program activities. Program activities has to the fun part of scouting. I think most who have put the time in will agree that it takes a minimum of 5 or 6 years for a boy led program to mature into a tru

Well Ive been there and my daughter (now 19) does not look back on my SM days as a time where her brothers had an advantage with me. I do agree there has to be a balance with the family and that requires sacrifices on your part. The SM is presumed needed and wanted everywhere everyday. I was asked a lot, but learned quickly to never accept a request to join district and council training staffs. I promised that I would join staffs after I retired as SM and sure nuff the phone was ringing the day after. I always wanted to go to Training at Philmont, but never did because I limited my time away a

>>But I was never a boy scout so Barry, perhaps by your metric, those experiences didn't count for me.

I don't think it is Cub Scouts because the Cubs have been around for a long time. I think it is in the last generation of leaders who were never Scouts as a youth. Its not that they are self-centered or tunnel visioned, they just don't know what scouting is outside of hand books and leader training courses. I once had a call from a new Scoutmaster who asked me how to fill the rest of the weekend on his campouts because his scouts had done all the advancement and were tired of repeating it. When I asked what they scouts did on their free time, he said he had never heard of free time on c

I personally think its a waste of time to send a scout if somebody doesn't go for the adults side. Way back when, our council ask some questions of all the past scout participants and the Scoutmasters to find where the course was lacking. The number one complain from the scoutmasters was they didn't have clue what the scouts learned. The number one complaint from the scouts was the Scoutmasters didn't let them try their new skills. Our Scoutmaster course was a half day after that, and then we had the scouts sit with the Scoutmaster and discuss how they were going to work in the new skills.

>>In our area Scout-O-Rama is supposed to be such an expo, but it doesn't seem to get well publicized as such. The Council also charges admission. As a result hardly anyone from the public comes in and it has mostly become another campout with events

>>The problem, as I see it, is that we don't promote our actions. Scouts aren't highly visible in many communities anymore. I think we need to be more visible.

>>John Wayne were often on our TV (and Dave Garroway. Dates me, I guess). Good guys catch and kill bad guys. I "died" my share on the playground. But this is a different time.

>>We have way too much to do with our camping program, service projects, and other Scout activities to even think about adding such a stupid activity. I am with SMT224 on this one. Scouts should outdoors. Period.

>>Being marginalized by an ever increasing decadent society is not a bad thing.

Shesh. My younger son and his 11 buddies have know each other since age five when we started their soccer team. They are all in scouts, the same soccer team and in the same youth group at church. Not to mention all the other local activities like school and so on. This group of boys spent a week canoeing the Bounder Waters for their high school graduation trip. Their church sponsored the trip, but the trailer they used to haul their gear was a troop trailer and the two adult church youth leaders who went with them are also scout leaders. Their assistant soccer coach was also asked to go,

This discussion comes up now and then and I always have the same reaction: Scouting is a great until the adults get involved. Barry

Just make sure the scouts get what the asked for. Barry