Eagledad

>>The BSA still doesn't behave like the private club it insists it is

>>Just because you have a legal right to do something doesn't make it "right." Actually NJ, the legal right does make it "right". Now you may not emotionally agree with it, but legally it is factually right. Barry

Yes, NJ and evmori are right. The ruling wasnt about gays or the BSA, it was about the government forcing itself on a private club to change its rules. If it had gone the other way, the government could force the BSA to accept atheist, take out the reference to God from all its materials and even force it to take trustworthy and clean out of the Scout Law so as to be fair to those who like to be dirty and arent trustworthy. Really its a basic right of United States freedom. That a few judges favored Dale still scares me. Now if the BSA eventually feels it must change, that is a different thing. That is an internal choice not being forced by government or the ruling political party at the time (biggest guy with the stick). That is also a basic right of freedom. As for Dale being force to leave because he was caught, he could have said he changed his lifestyle or just left and we wouldnt be having this discussion. That wasnt the choice he made. I guess it could be said life is not fair because the BSA didnt tell him gays weren't allowed when he joined, but whether he knew or not when he joined, he did make a choice when he did find out, not the BSA. He knew the risk and the consequences when he made the choice. Personally I think its silly to blame the BSA because gays arent specifially stated as not allowed on the application. If the BSA or any other organization was expected to list all the lifestyles and behaviors of folks not allowed in the organization, the list would go on for pages and pages and pages. I would be surprised to learn of just one registered adult who didnt know gays werent allowed to register into the BSA. Barry

>>Some packs address it by working with the troop to ensure that the boy is included as a "guest" of the troop, until such time as he is old enough to join. This requires a clear understanding that he can participate, but that nothing "counts" toward any ranks or awards until he is officially a member.

We had a few atheist parents and I have to say the only negative experience I ever had with atheist in scouting is here on the forum. The parents in our units were open minded and letting their sons choose their own path. In fact, many of those parents were fairly active in supporting the unit, they just didn't sign up. One parent was an Eagle. He was less active with the pack, but very supportive of his son in the program non-the-less. Barry

>>Nope, I like the 6-8 patrol members recommended by BP for each PL be retained and that the PL be responsible for them. This would then imply that the SPL could comfortably handle the responsibility for 6-8 PL's (PLC) and that the SPL not have to try and deal with 64 people, i.e. "run the troop".

Dangerous? I can't put into words the confidence this kind of experience builds into a boy. Its starts him to realize that nothing is impossible and that they can conquer even the smallest fears. It is a confidence that they will keep forever, and it is an experience they will tell to their grandkids. I found (by accident) that for a boy today, just setting up a tent in the hard rain while in the black dark of night is the same kind of experience. Yep, I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>BSA literature states that the SPL runs the troop. Okay, fine. I don't know of many pre-18 year olds that can run a troop of 30-40 boys and probably just as many over 18.

While I have not experienced not using a SPL, I have experienced the scouts doing what is necessary to ease their burden of running the troop. Troops tend to get too heavy or to lean and adjustments need to be made to improve the program. Once the scouts realize that you really have given them permission to run the program the best way they can, they will adjust the leadership structure to fit. If things are going well right now, I think I would leave it alone and let them find the need for the SPL. If and when they do get one, the position will likely be more efficient and substantive for the troop than if they were pushed to get one. Who runs the PLC meetings? Barry

We always had a lot of adults go with us, but I guess the reason it was no big deal was because we typically camped at least 100 yards from the scouts, and we didn't feel the need to keep adults busy doing scouting stuff. We encourage them to go fishing, hiking, biking or something like that. Many just hung around the campfire reading, but the adults were not encourage to hang with the scouts. It may have turned into a camping club thing for some of the adults, but the only time our scouts might see most of the adults was during the campfire. Barry

Of course you all are right in most cases, but I remember when Lisabob brought up the problem of the adults not letting the older scouts camp or hike by themselves. If I remember correctly, it wasn't so much a matter of trust, but a matter of parents having an excuse to go camping or hiking. Add that the SM is indifferent to the boys needs and adults needs, I think this is a different and more difficult problem. As was said by the other poster, the adults are not stating their goals to the scouts very well, so there is confusion. But when you have a SM who doesn't have goals, then it turns into a "whatever feels good at the moment" kind of program. Until a single leader stands up and says this is where we are going and this is how we will get there, the troop will coast in what the adults wants at that moment. Lisa needs to become the SM. Barry

>>but there is a fear that I am too serious about the job to lead..

What do you mean by support him? In the big world, his misleadership should be enough for the rest of the patrol to not support him back. If they do, then this is an indicator of a bigger problem with the patrol method. As for the scout, did he grow at all in his position? There hopefully is something to salvage there that can be used to push him to reach a little higher in his future scouting experience. I have had some scouts who just don't seem to care or react to counseling of their performance. I remember one such scout who told me during his Eagle COH that he earned the Eagle because I kept pushing him to reach just a little higher. I certainly didn't think that because I remember most of our talks seemed like events of frustration to me. I honestly never felt I reached him. But he did manage to earn the Eagle, I credit his dad. The thing is that scouts who make huge strides in growth tend to overshadow those who make very small steps a little at a time. Leadership may not be your scouts best attribute, but he may also turn into a civic leader one day because his experience in scouting give him someplace to start. I think because you care so much about him you are likely doing ok. Im not sure what you mean by support, but if you just keep presenting him with opportunities that give him those little steps forward, who knows what he might say about you at his Eagle COH. I love this Scouting Stuff. Barry

>>As a Scoutmaster, I view my main job as making sure these crazy scouts don't hurt themselves.

>>While I would hope not to judge others, it seems a little daffy that we would not allow two loving parents to join our organization, but have no problem allowing a guy who out and about cheating on his wife. If we really do believe in living by the golden rule? How would we feel if we were being discriminated agains

Well, Ive been there and done that and personally I think you have done a pretty good job so far. Good Work. A few thoughts as best as I can reflect: Just be careful the goals are realistic. Even though a good Scoutmaster instills a scout to envision that kind of scout he can become, the Scoutmaster has to resist giving the scout the scoutmasters vision. We must instead guide the scout to set and reach his goals. One small step forward is better than two steps back. Many adults get hung up on the scout not making progress toward the big goal when the small steps are big for some boys. From our perspective, he may infact just never show much growth in working with other people or delegating. Or he may just be biting off too much too fast at the moment. Again, keep up the small positive growths because anything is better than nothing just like at takes a lot of small step to reach the mountain top. Imagine where this young man would have been without his Den Chief and Troop Guide experience. He does have something to brag about. You didnt mention the parents, but can they help you in accomplishing some small victories? I have worked with a few scouts just like this, but I was surprised once when the Council had their Annual Review of the Council for all the Districts officers. The Council Executive started the meeting with a letter he just received. In that letter, the mother explained that her son was very smart, but very awkward and struggled to make friends. In fact even struggled with teachers who seemed to not care much for him. The only place her son felt comfortable was in the Boy Scout Troop where he was not only accepted, but was a Patrol Leader. She just wanted to make sure that the SE knew that Scouting does work. Well, that scout was in our troop and your scout sounds just like him. I agree with you that maybe he should have been pushed a little earlier to be more active in his patrol. But I think what is important is that you help him make positive steps at his pace and maturity. In fact, I think you have been doing just that. Its hard work, I know. But just keep pressing on with that little bit of pressure and you will one day few rewarded. Both of you will grow from this experience. What you are learning now will be applied to the next scout in similar circumstances. I love this scouting Stuff. Barry

Hey the Who are like what, 100 years old. They did manage to hit some high notes that surprised me. Im really glad they didnt have any wardrobe malfunctions. Ewuuu I like the Betty White add the best, but I agree this wasnt one of the better years for commercials. Game was OK, but we didnt have a dog in the fight, so we just ate a lot of good food. I had to ride my wifes stationary bike after because I felt guilty. Barry

>>BSA's policy is going to force alot of Scouters to either starve or not be able to go on trips w/the sons.

My troop did this when I was a youth with chickens and turkeys. We also did a hog, but that really turned into the adults doing it. I don't know what the BSA would say about it, but we really enjoyed it and it is a very good learning experience and a real good confidence builder. I do know that folks raise rabbits just for eating, so I'm sure you can find them as well. You might check with a Chinese restaurant to find a source. I think that was where our adults found them. Personally I think cleaning and skinning a rabbit is easier than the chicken and someone could use the fur for tanning. That used to be a Merit Badge. Oh, how did we kill them, grab them by the head and yank hard. Also get the right chickens, for cooking and I would say one chicken feeds at most three hungry scouts. Hope you guys can get it worked out, the boys will have a lot of fun and stories to tell. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>I have sent a couple in the last few weeks. I sent one to Beavah, Old Grey Eagle and Scoutdad.

>>Scoutmaster is no little thing, and is far more than what you think you are signing up for. For me, the best Scoutmasters have big hearts, a well-developed sense of fun, a nose for adventure, the ability to give and get respect, an almost unquestioning dedication to both the program and the Scouts, and a sense of how to hang back and let the boys lead without interference from him/herself or other adults. They need to play the role of teacher, of taskmaster, of gatekeeper, of mentor, of public relations man, of referee, of car driver, and of parent, and a million others on top of that.

My observation is a little different, but then I started as a CM and ended as SM. I fully agree that the job of CM is completely different than the SM. A good CM is very hands on with the boys while a good SM is very hands off. That is a big shift, but not hard if the SM has a vision. Strangely, I think the adults who are a bit of an attention seeker make a pretty good CM but make a horrible SM. I think adults who have a bit of the clown or entertainer make are good CM qualities, but again horrible qualities of a SM. A good CM has to be Johnny on the spot because there is always a scout who didnt get his award. The SM is the opposite and must learn to sit on his hands because he/she trains the scouts to be the Johnny on the spot and the SM wants to see how they handle it. I have worked with hundreds of SMs and I dont think you can know how good they will be before they start because there is such a learning curve at the beginning. However, I have found that the ones who start out with both feet running typically had a good boy scout experience as a youth. Not always the case, but in general those guys have a big advantage because they remember the fun side of scouting, not just the business side. Barry

I'm seeing the parent managing thing and need to reply, I don't think we managed parents that much. I think it was because because they are always informed. If they had a specific need like money or information of activities, they usually went to that person in charge of that task. If they needed some information about their son, they typically talked to one of us after the meetings. However, we tried an idea that kind of worked. We had one of our senior scouts meet the ASMs every week to brief them on what happened at the PLC meeting. Our PLC meetings were a half hour before each Troop meeting. The Senior scout was also the goto guy for the adults when they had questions of program. I guess the scout was kind of our Parent Manager, except that he mainly worked with the ASMs. You might give that a try if you have a scout mature enough to deal with that many adults. These were usually are 17 years olds who had done that and been there many times. Barry

Good questions. I have two meetings a year after each election where at least one of the parents is required. That is where I spend about a half hour explaining the program and a little bit about the next six months. Its mostly a Aims and Methods kind of meeting explaining how it all works. It is intended to help everyone understand we expect from the scouts and what they can expect from us. This I found answers a lot of questions from parents who have questions about how the program works, but for some reason hasnt asked. Advancement is always a topic of new parents. I spend most of the time with parents while the scouts are loading and unloading the Troop trailer before and after campouts. The scouts know what to do, so the adults stand back and wait. I usually spend the time bragging about their sons, and sometimes passing over a behavior issue or something. It would be rare that a parent learned something they didnt know about their son in the troop. I keep no secrets because I believe we are team working together, so I like the parents to know where their son is at in the troop. That is basically how I managed some communication with drop off type parents. Between the two meetings a year and picking up their son from a campout, I actually got to talk with them quite a bit. I typically spend at least 50% of my time on campouts with the parents. Usually around the fire, but the troop is boy run and I typically worked through the SPL. Thats just my style. If we adults are watching the scouts during an activity; I usually stand with the adults when Im not required for part of the activity, which is usually the case in our program. I especially like standing with the new parents to help them understand what is going on and how it all work. Which reminds me, we also require new parents come to the first three meetings after their sons join the troop. During this three visits, they will get to watch a PLC meeting, patrol meeting and a Troop Committee meeting. I spend as much time as I can with them explaining how the boy run program works, but a lot of my time is spent with Scout Concferences and SPL conferences. So our new scout ASM spend most of the time with the new parents. I didnt start out this way, I just found through many frustrating situations and phone calls that the more informed the parents are about their son and the program, the easier my job was with the boys and program dynamics. While boy run sounds simple for most folks, I believe it is very complicated and works best with the cooperation of all the families. Barry

Hi Jane There is no easy way to answer the questions without knowing the program. Honestly, Five POS could easily run a troopof 25 scouts, so more information would help. But not allowing a scout to give up some responsibilities doesn't really make sense, so there is some questions. What hasn't been mentioned, but was hinted, is how agressive the less agressive scout really is. Its always difficult to understand if a parent is pushing harder than the the program is designed, or just concerned with a program that is not giving each scout a fair chance. Assuming your a mother concerned with the program, Lisabob has some really good advice. Also, as a SM, I let the scouts determine POS that need to be filled and who needs to fill them. Scouts need to earn the position, not get it because it is their turn to advance. That being said, I alway found responsibilities for any scout who was looking for some experience and time to prove himself. If the less agressive son really wants some responsibility, he needs to watch for opportunities like leading the fund rasier, lead the troops monthly service project or help plan and lead the next Court of Honor. These kinds of jobs don't require a lot of time and skill, but it gives the scout some practice and exposure so the other scouts can see him at work. If this is to some degree an effort of helping your son advance, you may not find a troop program to your sons satisfaction. Work with your son to talk with the SM and see where that goes. I think that converstaion will answer most of your questions. Good luck to your and your sons. Barry