Eagledad

Great replies from everyone. I always sought to learn something from the scout that would benefit my own life. To do that, I to fight my instinct and just listened a lot. I noticed that the scouts eventually would stop telling me what he thought I wanted to hear and instead started telling me what he felt about life. I learned early that many of these young men are smarter than me and they knocked my socks off if I just gave them the timee. They were extremely satisfying conversations. If a scout struggled in our conversations, it was usually because he was very nervous. I always tried to do the ESMC in a relaxed atmosphere on his terms: I did one once during a Back Packing Trek in Colorado, and another while doing a 24 walk for Mankind Cancer fund raiser. The miles go by faster during a SMC. I once invited the parents to listen because they were so stressed about it that I wanted to show off there son in a light they had not considered. So many parents still see there son as a boy, and this young man was certainly a man. This scout was deaf and the first Eagle of three brothers. I eventually did the two brothers SMC years later and the parents were very excited for them. Scoutmaster Conferences take practice and each Scoutmaster needs to develop confidence in their own style. The conference needs to be about the scout and with the scout. Too many Scoutmasters spend to much time talking about themselves or lecture at the scout. What ever lessons the young man needs to learn at that place in his life, he isnt going to learn it there. I did usually spend the last few minutes telling the scout about EBOR so he could study up on a few skills, but mostly to help him relax. I miss doing those conferences because each one was a gift for me. I love this Scouting Stuff. Barry

When the behavior gets to this point, we add requirements on the scout to prevent him from continuing that same behavior. One example that works very well for us is ask the offending scout to bring his parents to the next meeting. Then we briefly list the behavior to explain why the parents are now required at all activities. We do not negotiate because frankly, enough is enough. We just thank the parents for coming and leave the room. Its pretty short and nothing more really needs to be said. Usually a scout that wants to stay will work very hard to stay, the rest fade away. Ive never asked a scout to leave the troop. He always made that choice. Barry

>>See, the thing is...there's that pesky part at the very bottom of the Eagle application that reads: "EDITIONS OF THIS APPLICATION PREVIOUS TO THE xxxx REVISION SHOULD NOT BE USED."

AvidSM beat me to it. The scout and counselor only have to complete the MB the scout started. Pretty simple really. We tend to think in terms that new requirements will make it more difficult for the scout and counselor, but more often than not, the new requirements are more relaxed. That has in the past left a counselor working with two different requirements of the same badge. Some of those scouts feel its unfair because they completed requirements the other scouts aren't required to perform. I personally don't see any ethics or moral delimas here, but the counselor might find themself doing the two-step. Barry

One of the districts in our Council ran a camporee like Eagle 92 is talking about. It went very from what I heard. It was planned and run by a couple of Venturing Crews. Our district discussed the idea of sort of camporee, but the troops would camp the first night in town, preferably at their CO location. Then they would get up break camp and hike to a local park where they all camped and competed together. Part of the competition was how well the patrols backpacked and set up their campsite after they hike. That night they would have a very big campfire with the locals also being invited. The idea is that all the folks of our town would see Boy Scouting in action with troops backpacking from all over town to the local park. THe locals would be invited to watch the patrol competitions at the park. It never got planned because the right folks didn't take a lead, but I still like the idea. Our troop has participated in a few night camporees and actually planned and ran one. They are a lot of fun. The basic idea there is the competitions don't start until after the Saturday night campfire. The competition typically ends around 2:00 am at the latest. Barry

If the SM approves it, he is fine. They can work with any age Cub Scout. I've not heard of a work book, that would something new in the last couple years, but it wouldn't hurt for the SM and Scout to set some goals together and discuss how the scout is doing toward those goals. Barry

>>Like someone said above...."I think the BSA has a great opportunity to make a difference in the lives of both boys and girls. And from an organizational viewpoint, this might be the cause that jump starts the BSA again."

Yes, you are doing fine. I would like to say that after a scout masters scout skills (first class), rank should not be a measurement of leadership qualifications. Maturity and experience are a lot better measurements of leaders and I have had some very good leaders who were not motivated by rank. You want to develop a program of multiple opportunities, so stear away from opportunity blocks. Also you will find that 14 and 15 year old men look at leadership a lot differently than 12 and 13 years olds. The changes of body chemistry dramatically dictate the motivation toward dreams and goals. Barry

Well it sounds like you are doing pretty well to me. What I like to advice on groups such as yours is try to develop the program now that you see in five years. Its not going to be the same, but you want to change a little as possible as the group gains experience and numbers. So Im thinking you keep everyone in one group because nine scouts isnt really that big of a patrol. However, I would have a SPL so that you can work through him and he can work with the patrol leader. In reality its not going to make much difference, but it is how you want your program to work five years from now when you have 50 scouts. It is also important to remember that boys 13 and under dont really enjoy leadership that much. So, make sure you give them enough responsibility that they grow from the experience, but not so much that they dont look forward to coming to the meetings and activities. Its really hard at the age, but the important thing here is Step back more and more as the scouts gain more and more experience. Many (most) adults develop habits in they way the work with scouts and dont change even though the boys are growing and changing. But if you keep stepping back with age of scouts as they gain experience, I promise that by the age 13, they will be more independent than most boy run troops, and they wont feel as burned out. You have to really watch and judge they attitude, but try to push the boys a little farther than they think they can go so they work in that learning zone, but not so far as to not want to come back. I like to say that your program should so that boys think as they are going home I like myself when Im in the troop. Its important to remember to strive so that everything is fun, but what brings boys back when the program gets boring is the satisfaction of feeling good about their accomplishments. Scouts get that by achieving goals. I think the questions you are asking are very important and we all have asked them, but remember to try and keep everything in the context of your big goal. That is a personal thing for you, but my big picture goal when I was Scoutmaster was developing character based from the decisions the made in their activities. Sounds simple, but I had to practice a lot to answer my questions in that perspective. Will the scouts have as much fun in two smaller patrols and more opportunities to practice leadership and living the scout law? Or will they have more fun and grow better in the one big group? That is really something you have to figure out because you have your own style. That doesnt mean a little wisdom from those of us who have been there and done that isnt worth its weight. We have a lot of experience and learned a lot form how we did it wrong and how we did it right (mine was more wrong than right). I'm just suggesting how to think of these things in terms of your big picture. Like I said before, I think your doing OK so far. If the scouts are getting a little bored, go out and do something fun, You didnt hear it from me, but take them out for a few games of Lazer Tag or something. And if there is some part of the meeting or activities they arent enjoying, change that too. I look forward to reading your post of how your troop grows. Im away from it now, so its always a pleasure for to watch good scoutmasters in action. I love this scoutmaster stuff. Barry

The rule came about when National found that most of the accidents during BSA trips were in convoys or caravans. After a few close calls during the years, we migrated to non caravan transports. I also agree with Beav and Lisa that some folks need a buddy to feel comfortable finding a camp, so we also had a rule of no more than two cars caravaning together, and even then use common sense spacing. Many folks complained that cars could be spread out for miles and cause problem. We typically had 3 or 4 trips a year at least 600 miles to our destination and the longest it took for everyone to show up was 20 minutes. You just need to make sure everyone has a good map, good directions and phone numbers for every driver. A little bit of work on someones part, but it is much safer. Barry

I'm seeing two different discussions here: one is how to run the meetings well and the other is how to make them fun. A troop can learn how to run a meeting well, but that doesn't mean it's fun. We had a saying while I was Scoutmaster, "If its not fun, change!". Lisabob said some really good stuff, but I don't really agree that boys aren't very adventurous. Boy are adventurous when they are given permission to be so. Youth today have been developed to rely on the adults, so when they are given free rein, they just don't know what to do. Like everything else, they just need to practice being adventurous. Once the pump is primed, watch out! These dry spells happen every so often as leaderships change and move on. In fact this is one of the classes we taught at our JLTC. Our troop change this some by allowing the adults to participate in annual planning. In our meeting, that adults were allowed to submit as many ideas as the other patrols. This is where we went kind of wild. We once suggested a trip to Alaska and another time one to Russia. We purposely picked trips that scouts would think impossible just to get them to discuss and see the possibilities. By the way one of our Crews went to Alaska three years after that meeting. One scout just couldn't get it off his mind. Those are extreme examples, but just suggesting a back packing trip or a canoe trip is enough to think out of the box for many troops. The other idea is we would change the meeting area just a Beavaher suggested. Our summer meetings are always outside.but we also went to a nearby park or lake once-in-a-while for orienteering or looking at stars. Just last year a muscle car club brought all their cars to a meeting. That idea originated when some of the scouts wanted to do the auto mechanics MB. One thing led to another and a car show happened. A really cool car show. Fire Safety? invite the Fire department, or visit an emergency room. We did this once when I asked the PLC to deal with some unsafe fire practices I witnessed a camp. Our PLC once planned a whole meeting dealing with Space. They found some easy ways of building rockets at each meeting. Gun safety is always a big hit and the PLC once asked a local Fly Fishing Club to come in and teach fly fishing. Scouts thought of those ideas and generally it started with a little idea that was pushed to big ideas. Thing is to help the scout learn how to think out of the box. Boy run doesn't mean adults can't contribute ideas. It just means the adults ideas shouldn't carry more weight than the scouts. And the adults need to learn to make a suggestion and walk away. Let the scouts determine if the idea is worthy. Adults have a lot of stupid ideas too. We can get into the discussion of how the boys can learn to run really good meetings and I would certainly enjoy that discussion. But "Fun" should precede business. You want the scouts to look forward to the next week. Once you have that, its easy to teach them the leadership skills of running a good meeting. Barry

Its a lot of work. Sorry, I miss spoke. I meant to say, ITS A LOT OF WORK! Thats not to scare you off, but to get you in the right frame of mind. It generally takes at least 3 years for the troop to get some momentum, and 6 years to develop a solid program. You need to commit to the six years to maintain a continuity of developing toward the same goal or vision. I use to be the districts adviser for struggling units and my experience is 90% of troops had no vision when they started. Vision is the first and highest priority for starting a successful unit because it gives everyone an understanding of their role as a team member. Passion is next on the list because it is a lot of work. As a team, find your Vision, write it down and repeat it a lot all the time to everyone including parents. Develop every part of your program to in some way have purpose toward that Vision. The Vision should be idealistic so that it stands the test of time, seemingly impossible so that it doesnt become a stepping stone toward a new Vision, and Noble so that it is something every parent wants for their son. Badon Powell's vision World Peace based from values of scouting. I agree with the suggestions of reading the present SM Handbook and also reading the old stuff because they are much better about working with scouts toward the visual of building citizens of character and leaders of integrity. However, I also suggest that everyone (scouts and scouters) read the Patrol Leaders Handbook and SPL Handbook. Those two books are the easiest road maps the BSA publishes toward building a successful troop that easy to read and understand. Building a program is a lot easier when the boys and adults understand the parts of the program and work together toward the same goals. If you decide to take on this endeavor, I envy the rewards that you will gain from the experience. Its a lot of work and very well worth it. God has a special place for those bold enough to start new units. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>If so, it begs more questions that the potential co-ed status of scouting.

>>While there might only be 17 Scouts this year, next year that number could well be 30 or 50.

>>Eagledad, Then you may be more in favor of what the Finns do in memory serves. They are coed at Cubs, then split into Guides and Scouts, but essentially workign on the same stuff and advancement, then coed again for the Venturing age.

>>Barry, I think the real reason Campfire and GSA are failing is poor program organization.

Im not sure the logic of combining several programs loosing members to fix the problem of loosing members. Sure you increase the membership of ONE program for a short time, but it is still a program loosing members. The problem of loosing membership is not going to be fixed by Political Correctness or combining other losers because the problem is with the programs themselves. Girls Scouts and Campfires big loses started when they changed their programs to be more inclusive of atheist and gays. The Girl Scouts have all kinds of issues, but it basically is not a values program anymore. Campfire become coed in the early 80s, but that didnt really help them increase in numbers much. It didnt hurt them like the gay and atheist thing did though. However, you can credit the BSA Tigers from the Campfire coed program. If that isnt enough, look at the Canadian program. Its dying folks and the few Canadian Leaders I talked to can tell you the day of its lethal injection. I dont know that day that was, but the program made a big shift to be more exclusive. Interesting thing was they were a very good program that was in many peoples minds a better program than the BSA. That massive program is now almost a whiff in the wind. My opinion is the Cub program is what is hurting the BSA. It is long complex program that looses a lot of boys and leaders before the Boy Scout age. Since 95% of Boy scouts come from the Cubs, the big looses at the Cub level really hurt. The BSA needs to simplify the Cub program back to a 3 or 4 year program. I agree with the post who said most of the folks who think coed scouting is fine havent worked with coeds, at least at the 10 to 14 year age. The BSA doesnt need to save other programs out there that really have a different set of values than the BSA at the moment. National just needs to focus on itself and make scouting easier and more simple for the adults and boys. I still question how coed can be as boy run as the present program. There are adults on this forum who require their boys to have a buddy while they go to the latrine. If that is the kind of mentality of future leaders, arent they going to have trouble with the buddy being the opposite sex? Certainly allowing patrols to camp without adults is out the window. Barry

Well of course it works in other countries, after they make all the changes that are required to make it work. As someone who has worked both in Boy Scouts and coed church youth groups, Scouting would have to change to be coed. Especially at the Boy Scout age where the body chemistry is changing. It certainly would no longer be boy run or in that case youth run. Its hard enough for boys to focus when they don't have the distraction. And its not like they aren't getting mixed together at any other time in their life. Barry

>>I always get the feeling that the PL's really aren't running any show when their decisions, actions, plans, etc. can always be trumped by the SPL/PLC and/or SM/ASM.>If they really are not running the show, then why not go directly to the person who makes the decisions, i.e. the SM?

Good question. JLT over that last 20 has turned into kind of change from unit level youth leadership training to a generic term for leadership development. At least around anyway. NYLT, JLTC, TLT, Brownsea, GreenBar, and so on can come under the term Junior Leadership Training (JLT). Troop Leadership Training (TLT) is a fairly new training course from National designed to be run at the troop level. Thanks for the correction. Barry

We did this once with the all the ingredients required for banana splits. It was a huge hit and some good creativity. Barry

>>The SM of this troop is not really doing anything, other than doing the old VHS video training? He says that there is not much out there to help him. How could I handle this and help him train the youth of this troop.

I worked with an ol-timer on Wood Badge once who has been involved with WB since the 60s. He said back then WB was designed to train District and Council leaders to work with Scoutmasters. There were a few SMs in those courses, but that wasn't the intent. The idea back was that the Council and District would take responsibility for making sure the Scoutmasters had the skills to teach scouting skills and leadership. That was fine with me, the problem came when Wood Badge started teaching everyone. The course that was indirectly designed for Scoutmasters had turned into course for everyone. And it really had switched from a skills development course into an example of how a troop should look. That didn't work very well and here we are now with a course to teach everyone (Cubs and Venture included) team development. Personally I like the new WB course for the management of units, I think it has saved a lot of units in this day and age of big committees. But it is not a good course for teaching adults how to lead scouts. I find it ironic that we again need a course just for Scoutmasters. The pit we seem to have fallen in is that leadership development is the Scoutmaster's job. But we don't really teach them how to do it and now rely on District or Council to do the job for us. Or did, now even the Council course is more focused on team development than individual leadership. Even if you have a good natural leader in the group, he still isn't getting the skills. It doesn't surprise me at all that Eagles today don't really have a full grasp of basic leadership skills that a patrol could survive in the woods by themselves. Still, I wonder if we could even turn it around. We found here that the best new Scoutmasters are the adults who were scouts as a youth. They know the skills and have a general expectation of the program. But, we are getting fewer of those adults leading anymore and taking in adults who have to start from scratch. So I don't really know where to go with training. I think the scouts need a good scoutmaster to teach leadership but that is not really in the future. I approached council once to utilize the Commissioner Corp better by getting good experienced leaders to work side by side with new unit leaders. I was told that the corp. is not as much in focus with the big picture anymore, so they didn't really want to bother. This may be as good as it gets. Barry

>>I pay income tax each year I don't add 10% more to prove I am a Patriot and I don't want to do just the minimum. In my professional certification I must have 24 hours of Continuing Education every 24 months to renew my registration. Am I bad for only doing the minimum? WOuld you be more impressed if I said I would do 30 hours?

You might as well replace reference letters with uniform and you have the same discussion. Neither is required, but it sure makes the whole process messy and "risky" if you don't. Just do it and save the hassle. Barry