Eagledad

While having a skill to teach certainly makes for a good counselor, the passion for helping a young man grow through the exercises of learning makes up for a lack of skills. What could a boy learn from a man humble enough to willingly learn along side the boy? Barry

>>For car guys and non car folks, if you want a laugh check out Top Gear on BBC America some time. My kids turned my on to this show and it's a riot. My wife even likes it.

>>Well, shazam! With that kind of positive attitude toward Cub Scouts, is it any wonder that trying to recruit those same scouts is not successful?

I think the problem is most adults view the effort required to get Eagle as a just working a list of merit badges, not a series of experiences for developing character. So they don't understand the harm of making it easy on the scout. Barry

>>Edited: Eagledad, are you sure about the '58 F150? Seems like I remember the 150 coming out a long time later - to replace the 100 I think.

58 F150 69 Ford 428 Torino 68 Cutlass 442 68 Triumph Spitfire 69 Malibu 72 Trans Am 70 Datsun Roadster 1600 Then I got married and there are few minivans of which I can't remember the names.

Stick with it. You are describing our troop, so I know where you are coming from. We had a scout and his mother visit us four times when our troop was young. After their third visit, I asked mom what was going on. She admitted her son loved our boy run, less formal, style troop and he was ready to join. But she wanted more structure and like the troop down the street better because the adults dressed sharper. She was trying to show here son the problems with our troop during the visits. Her son won out and all three of her sons earned their Eagle in our troop. But more important, we got the Webelos from her pack for the next six years. What you might want to consider is looking and maybe changing your recruiting style a little, what ever it is. For us it was basically what you see is what you get. Our troop never planned a single troop activity with Webelos visits in mind, so visitors saw the real deal at meetings and on campouts. I also worked to get better at presenting and explaining why our rag tag looking program was great for developing character, leadership and a more confident man of the future. It may be that you dont need the pack, but it never hurts to keep good relations. You never know what you will get with a new set of adults. Barry

The approval authority is seperate from our EBOR group. Didn't others did it different. I is interesting that a memeber is assigned and checks on the scout. Not sure what to think of that, is that more than they should be doing? I have always felt that all the board should do is verify the scout followed the process written in the Eagle pamplet for getting the approval. No more, no less. Our approval board got so heavy handed that one member chewed out both the mon and the scout for not following the district proceedures. The member was asked to step down that week, but the proceedures stayed. The scout in question had just moved from Houstion and was following the proceedures of the district down there. Why can't everyone just do it by the book and leave the rest to the scout? Barry

There is point where too much can be demanded from a scout. I learned, thru much humility, to look for signs in each scout of when scouting was nolonger fun. So it would be interesting for me to learn from stoshe's scouts where they reached that point, or where the parents reached the point. Not suggesting anything about stosh, its just my nature to learn where the disconnect occured. Barry

We had a district do a backpacking comporee. The patrols set up camp Friday night, break camp and hike three miles to another camp on Saturday. They have to stop and do several skills competitions along they way. This can be done at a larger scout camp with each patrol taking different paths. Our Troop did something similar using biking, hiking and canoes. We didnt break camp, but did carry packs. We did 12 skills competitions spread between the legs. Surprisingly to all of us, all the patrols finished by 1:30 in the afternoon. We thought it would go a lot longer. Barry

I believe the District Commissioner is the most critical person on the District Committee because they can control everything, bad or good. I have found through the years that there are very few people who can actually do the job right. First of all they need the gift of recruiting. Then they need to have vision and know how to organize and manage Unit Commissioners toward that vision. Good District Commissioners are rare to find. I personally think our commissioner was the cause of loosing at least 20 % of the scouts every year in our district. He didnt know how to prevent fires, only how to put them out, and not really good at that. But he is a one of the nicest guys you will ever meet and one of my dearest friends. He is now the Council Commissioner. Oh well. Barry

>>So that day, I learned that the boundaries of "boy led" in that particular group did not include planning for any events.

Man I hate this kind of stuff. What did these parents not see or not know about the troop when they joined? Barry

>>We agree pretty much on the outcome, just the process to get there.

>>While I may not be building a company in India, I still think it's far more productive to start 5 year olds in kindergarten and work from there. Yes, they will need some guidance and training, but by the time they reach 7th grade, they will have had more opportunities than if they had started with students far more advanced than them. Those kindergarten students aren't lazy or irresponsible, but more along the lines of overwhelmed and frustrated.

Wow, Leadership or safety? I've watched you program since you have been on the forum and your scouts don't seem to be different from ours with leadership. And with all do respect to the time you give to our program, this might be a time to reflect on the adult side of the program. I have never seen the DE get involved with parents unless the unit adult leadership is ignoring their concerns. Surely someone saw this coming. Parents have a responsibility to protect their kids from unreasonable risk. In this day and age, parents are less trusting of adults who say, trust me, you kid is safe with me.. They want to know that their kid is safe. Also, parents who are more in the dark generally are a reflection of what their kids are telling them at home. What do they really know? I found through humbling lessons that the parents have to be educated about the program we are presenting for them. If they are to trust us to keep their kids safe and in a program that they dont really understand philosophically, the burden is on us to teach them our philosophy of the program. You are pretty open Stosh that you spend 100% of your time. I don't understand how 100% of time with boys isn't adult run, but who knows what that really means. I believe the SM should spend at least 50% of their time with the adults constantly teaching, guiding, role modeling, and educating them on our program philosophy. Especially a philosophy that is radically different from what the parents expect like our boy run philosophy. And it has to be the SM, not the CC, ASM, advancement committee member or chaplains aid that teaches the philosophy because after all, the SM IS the Troop leader, No matter what anyone else says. And I think the SM needs to show actual examples of how their program is working. Not theories or conspiracy theories of what might happen. The SM needs to actually show the parents what is going on, how it works and why. And they need to do it all the time. Not once a year, but over and over. If the parents like what they hear and see from the SM, then they will not only allow their sons to stay in the program, they will push them to stay in the program. If the SM cant do all that, the parents get suspicious and scared. They dont like being in the dark. Our troop was considered the most radical boy run Troop in the council and that kind of program required constant communication with the Troop leaders as well as the parents. I constantly gave handouts of the Aims, Methods and troop vision to all parents and had a parents meeting twice a year to explain the boy run program as well as answer any questions. We required the parents of new scouts attend a four week training where they were exposed to everything in the program. It was the one time the PLC had more than one or two adults in their meetings. I also gave all this same information to visiting Webelos parents. Our program was radical compared to most troops, but it also grew from 14 to 80 scouts in five years. We had the largest single group of scouts 14 and older than any other unit in the council. Not that we wanted a big troop, we didnt. Boy run is very difficult on a large scale, especially one that is constantly growing. I just dont feel a troop program can be successful unless the SM is fairly close to the parents. Especially in this day and age of helicopter parenting. I could be wrong about this being a concern for you stosh, but it something to think about. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

We have lots of stories with a Troop as large as ours, but the most serious was an ASM who had a heart attack on a biking campout. It was pretty serious, but lucky for him there was a bike race going on in the area and they had an ambulance on stand by. We also had a couple of doctors on that campout as well and I think they saved his life. I relate to Eagle92s hypothermia in the Canadian Wilderness because we had the exact same situation up there as well. I fully understand how it can get serious without realizing it. The temperatures are in the 50s, but with it raining, it comes on fast. Luckily we did realize what was going on and immediately took care of the scout by putting him next the fire with a cup of hot chocolate. That saved it from getting to the seriousness that Eagle92 experienced. It scared me and I am a lot more alert about hypothermia now. Other than those two experiences, most injuries were a result of scouts horsing around or doing something they knew they shouldnt have been doing. I cant recall a single incident with knives except with scouts who had not been to been trained yet and should have been using one. We did have a few injuries with bow saws from scouts who didnt wear gloves but knew they were supposed to. By they way, the bow saw is the number cause of woods tools injuries by a factor of three. I have two scars today from my scouting days. One from pinewood derby and the other from a Space Derby. I got second place on both those derbies for best looking. I wear those scars with pride. Barry

>>I reckon you're hilariously wrong and in denial that teenagers can actually become atheists. Not everything is about rebellion against your favorite religion.

>>Uhhh huh...

An excellent method of patrol competition is patrol campsite inspections. There is nothing like comparing each others campsite to improve performance. Improving performance is the best tool for improving leadership and patrol pride. I am curious, a few folks over different threads talk about rebuilding patrols every now and then for different reasons. How does that develop the patrol pride and loyalty? Patrol pride is a delicate thing to develop. Once you have it, you got it for a long time. But getting there is 90 percent of the battle. Our troop adds and dissolves patrols depending on the influx, but we never start over and rearrange with all new patrols. So Im curious. Barry

>>Approximately 95% of pedophiles are heterosexual. Approximately 5% of pedophiles are homosexual.

Our guys encourage new scouts to join a patrol with a friend or friends. I'm not sure how the PLC in our troop would know the more athletic boys of the new group. It would be dumb luck if your situation occurred in our troop. While I was SM, the SPL and I sat down before the meeting to strategize placing new scouts. Usually the SM or some other adults learned as much as we could from the den leaders and sometimes parents. Anything we think can help the PLC work successfully is discussed with the SPL. But, the smallest group of scouts that joined our troop while I was SM was 18, so placing new scouts was a lot of work. I usually let the PLC do their job and waited for the SPL to present me the final list at the end of the evening. I was there of course to advise if the SPL asked. Honestly I think the PLC and I looked at this process more as a team effort, not a SM PLC relationship. It's a lot of work getting new scouts placed where they are excited for their future. Barry

>>The first question I would ask is what do the new boys want? If they don't get what they want, they will quit.

>>Merlyn makes two excellent points.

Kudu, I am a ardent believer of "the sum-total of all the natural laws in the universe". I just don't believe that that statement fixes everything. A person can believe in the sum total thing and still not believe in god. If the scout presents me with this idea, that is one thing, but if he told me that an adult said he was OK because of some pantheist belief, well that is something else. I thought my gutless point was a little off the mark and unfair because I feel we are friends and you would see the smile behind it. But nothing you wrote in your following post changed anything I wrote. That surprised me. I was ready to admit my errors and stand humbled. Its kind of funny, I was thinking that you were psychological projectioning when you talked about the atheist Scout and finding a fix to get the Eagle. And now I wonder about the IQ comment. I guess I just don't position scouts like that. You accuse me of some kind of pressure toward scouts in that they would not feel comfortable speaking freely, and yet I've said nothing that would feed that thinking. You would find that my scouts didn't know my religion or my belief in God. After reading your last post, I am convinced that a scout would have more freedom with me than with you. I have too much respect for their abilities to figure it out, no matter what their IQ. And maybe that is why I've never had to find them a fix. What ever fix the scout needs to satisfy himself, he would seek and find himself, even if the fix was "I am an atheist". I want nothing to do with what a Scout believes other than to support him. Its too personal and really none of my business other than what the BSA requires of me, which really isn't that much. I on the other hand admire any man who can make the tough choice, even if that choice means giving up the Eagle. And THAT is what I mean a decision made for life. If the scout gives up the Eagle because of the tough decision, there is no going back. Unless he is before 18 of course. When I think back on the many many discussions Ive read on this forum, it seems only the scouters that have had discussions with atheist scouts are the adults who seem charged up by the BSA restriction of atheist. There is just something that bothers me about that. I know there are stories of over zealous adults push their form of religion on the scouts, but I wonder who is more zealous, those against the BSA or those for. I mean I have had 1000s of discussions with these young man and I have to wonder why I've never had one with a out and out devout atheist. I've had many discussions with boys completely confused and many who just didn't know. I will never forget the counseling the witch. I am sure their are boys who are truly atheist, but to read it from you and a few others here, there are a lot of atheist scouts and just I don't believe that. Its too hard just trying to figure themselves out to make that kind of conclusion without the help of an adult somewhere. I've watched to many adults project their ambitions, fears and beliefs on the scouts trying to sway the scout to their own way of thinking and I detest that. While I've never met an atheist scout, I know several adult Eagles who are now atheist. I only have pity for the ones who knew they were atheist when they got the Eagle. Barry