Eagledad

>>Girl Scouts handle this with no problem--Daisies are kindergarteners, and Service Unit activities combine all the ages. From what I've seen and been told, the older girls don't really get bothered by events that involve the "little kids" until about 6th grade,

The discussion went a strange direction to me. While most admit that the problem is burned out adults, the solution was fixing the Webelos program? Something is a miss, unhappy adults equals fix Webelos? Got to make the adults excited to get excited cubs. I enjoyed reading your post twocubdad, but I dont really agree with it much. But let me first say that I researched this area of the program for a few years. I interviewed hundreds of scouts and many dozens of Den Leaders. So I have pretty good feel for it. >>2) I'll disagree sightly with Barry regarding the Webelos program -- while I think the program elements laid out for Webelos are generally appropriate, there needs to be more structure and direction between the Webelos I and Webelos II years.>Just as they're evaluating what they do and don't want to do, BSA lights up a huge EXIT sign we call crossover. They've reached the pinnacle of Cub Scouting, earned the highest award possible. You can continue on if you want, but you'll start at the bottom of the heap, have to new leaders, a greater time commitment and, if you listen to the sales pitch, you better really like camping. And we wonder why half of them quit.

My plates say EAGLEDAD. Barry

Well the discussion is half right, it is true we loose a lot of families in the cubs, but the content of the program is not the problem. At least from the boys point of view. The main number one Cub program problem is adult leader burnout. Think about it, the Cub program is roughly FIVE years long. I've written about this for a long and the discussions can be found in detail in the archives. But it basically comes down to that the average adult starts burnout after two years and is pretty much spent after three. THat means a burned out Bear leader is still looking at roughly two more years. Add on top of that 90% of Den leaders are female. So put your self in the place of a female Bear leader who is looking at a the next two years of outdoor camping, cooking, and scout skills. That is two years out in the hot and cold, bus and snakes and trying to teach skills only their brothers did when they were kids. There just isnt a lot of enthusiasm there folks. But, Ive also worked with a lot of male Bear leaders too and they are just as burned out even if they look forward to the outdoor part of the program. The results is familiar to most of us seasoned pack leaders, begging and pleading for the adults to either stay and finish with their scouts, or find a new den leader to take over. Neither choice is ideal because 9 times out of 10 the leader you get isn't excited about running a fun den program. The results are a bunch of bored boys who cant wait to get our of Scouts. So, we can bash and hammer the contents of present program all we want, but until we shorten the length of the Cub years and make the program a little easier for adults to manage, we will keep losing families by the herds. I know there are Webelos leaders who provide good programs and it is tempting to ask them what they do different, but I personally think the present Webelos program is good and if the den was run by a motivated adult (fresh), they would be very successful. So what I am saying that an good programs requires enthusiastic adults, especially the Webelos. The BSA Cub program today is more complicated and longer than it ever has been. And it seems they keep piling on more every year. Barry

>>Any comments on this bright idea would be welcome.

>>Eagledad, I'm really inspired by the level of responsibility your Webelos have taken on.

>>(Oh, the last time I brought this up I was admonished here that that one of the purposes of Cub Scouting is to "wean" the boys from parents to transition into Boy Scouts

>>I'm wondering if others out there have done this and, if so, I'm looking for helpful suggestions as to how to make this work best.

Hi Bronco I used to help guide Troops that kind of lost their way when I was on the District Committee. Most didn't loose their way because they were bad managers, most got lost because they just didnt know how. My advice for every Troop CC Ive worked with is take the Scoutmaster Fundamentals Course with the SM and learn what the program is all about. In fact, I would suggest you call the District Membership Chairman and ask them to provide the course jsut for your unit and invite all the committee adults and all the ASMs into the course. Then the discussions can be more directed to your program. The NUMBER ONE problem I find with units that loose their way is they dont have a vision or goal for each adult to focus on for the big picture. So each adult kind of does their own thing without understanding how the fit in the big picture. They eventually start working against each other and the unit becomes dysfunctional. By getting everyone to take the SMF course, everyone is brought to the same understanding of the program. What is very important is that you develop an understanding of the vision in the program so that each person has a goal or direction to work towards. Now the BSA actually makes that easy, do a google and review the Scouting Vision and Mission Statement, and the Aims and Methods. You can see there is a goal and there is a plan to reaching those goals. See, the Scoutmaster is responsible for the program. But the CC is responsible for the holding the Scoutmaster accountable to knowing and understanding what the program should be. Its not your job to run the boys side of the program, but it is your job to know where they should be going. You know the vision and goals, now develop a plan with the SM and hold the performance of the program accountable to the vision or goals. How do you know if they are performing? Go back to the Vision and Mission. Start off simple, make sure the boys are first having fun. I have seen troops get so caught up in getting their troop to the vision that they lost the fun in the adventure. The word fun should be mentioned a lot. In fact I told the boys that at anytime something isnt fun, CHANGE IT. Im not a believer that we have to do some of the boring stuff to reach the fun stuff. Keep it simple and keep it fun. Oh, remember that adults are great at complicated. The more they get involved, the more it will get complicated. Keep it simple, keep it fun. A simple method for starting out is have the SM, ASMs and all the boys in the PLC use the SPL Handbook and PL Handbook. Those are simple guides that everyone can understand for running a simple program. As things get more complicated, then boys and adults review the handbooks and see how they can make simple changes that fit in the program. OK, I meant for this to be a quick easy read, but as usual I got carried away. I will let it go now and wish the best. You are in a great place right now where you can influence young men for the rest of their lives. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>1 of 7 methods

>>Oh well, he's doing robotics in engineering school, I guess I'll settle for him getting a job out of it rather than a merit badge.

Hey don't interrupt please, over-thinking is what I do best. I'm now pondering snaps and waterproof materials for winter activities. Thinking Thinking

So we are talking about two zippers, one around the leg and the other vertical along the leg. You got the engineer in me thinking. Thinking Thinking OK got it. Two zippers abeam each other (abeam is pilot talk for right angles) would be a mess trying to start both at the same time and work properly, so lets try velcro or buttons or a combo of each for the vertical part. I'll keep thinking on this: Thinking Thinking

The Cub program is the number one major cause of losses in the BSA. I have written about the causes since 1995 and most folks who have been on the forum a while can probably recite me. But, Until National gets a hold on the Cub part of the problem, the losses at the rest of the program are hard to grasp. What I mean is if we loose 7 out of 10 boys before they even crossover to the Troops (conservative), how can we really know if there is a problem at the older age levels? Kudu is right that the best way to recruit boy into scouts is to present them with the program eye to eye. In fact, that is what Cubs do and is why they do recruit so well. If we could simply get half the boys we are currently loosing in Cubs to cross over into boy scouts, the troops would explode. Then our next and even harder problem would be holding on to the first year Boy Scouts. Keep those guys and you have them until 14. Then we move to the next problem of keeping the older scouts. But we must first get the Cubs to cross over. On the uniform, I cant say if that is the reason why boys dont join, I honestly dont think so when I think about it. But our troop started using Olive Drab BDU pants and they became a hit in our troop and our district. It was a lot easier for the PLC to get the Troop in full uniform and yes, a few of the guys bragged about wearing their pants to school. Barry

>>No Retesting is the real meaning of "Once an Eagle, Always an Eagle:" A former Boy Scout's "values" (opinions) are more important than his ability to cook over a fire, or save a life.

>>We should never treat an advancement requirement as a one time punch card item. He should be learning the skill becuse he will be using it and needing it in the future.

>>or if you prefer, the skill has "really" been learned.

>>So then comes the question "If not to Retest.. What is the function of a BOR??"..

>>But we originally were in a troop that used the BOR to make sure the scout had learned by retesting and failing.

>>Maybe it is high time for the BSA to reevaluate the structure and methods of how a BOR should be run.

>>Also, we issue them Troop guidebooks, and Patrol Leader Handbook/Senior Patrol Leader Handbook. We use the sample agenda from inside these handbooks.

>>We want to make it a mixed age patrol by taking two new scouts who are actually interested in real boy scouting, so they can learn things the right way. Can we take scouts from a differant patrol? If so, is there a rule I can show my SM to make him believe me?

Most Oklahoma troops are year around campers. It's real cold today, but the biggest problem here is wind. It's kind of year round thing, so we get use to it. but temps in the low 20s and wind gust in the 40s like today is challenging. We occasionally get NO fire restrictions in dry months, so we have to get creative sometimes. November has always been our most challenging month to plan because of all the council and district stuff going on. Barry

Troops camping this weekend. Temps are in the low 20s with the wind gusting through the 40s here in Oklahoma. I'm sure winter has set in hard in most of the rest of the country as well. I love this scouting stuff. Barry