Eagledad

Kudu's explanation works well because it gives the scout permission to continue his scouting experience and discover his personal reverence. I once gave a Chappell service like this at Wood Badge. I call it the Wow Factor. "Wow!" being the reaction of a Scout who suddenly sees all the valleys and mountains 50 miles upon reacing a mountain peak, or watching mountain thunder shower five minutes away driving toward him. You cant predict when it will happen, but there are events that can force a scout to want an explanation in their awe of the moment. Same with my explination of referencing the Scout Law. It is a broad reference that allows the scout to seek his on reverence from how we participate in the world that changes everyday of his perspective. I dont really agree with BadenP that it can be explained by relating personal experiences. Oh Im sure that helps some scouts, but I still find that approach limiting the scouts experiences that can influence his reverence. All that being said, I also agree that both the Scout and his parents need to understand that atheist cannot earn rank. Unless he changes his mind, scouting is only about the journey for him, which may be just fine. Barry

>>" Come-on, who doesn't know? " People who have yet to have their sons recruited or who have yet any experience wit BSA.

>>So, while I am not taking sides on what the policy is...I completely and totally see where people are surprised by BSA when they later are ejected or find out about somebody else getting ejected by BSA for being homosexual.

>>They asked me and I told them not to ask, as that's sexual harassment.

God is the source of the 12 points of the law. Only through a higher source can all humans be equal. Barry

Hi Tampa I know you asked Beavh, but Ive had a little experience in the area of your question. I have seen this style of elections work very well with the SPL position. Usually the SPL was a one year term. The election gives the ASPL six months to get up to speed and step right in. I have not seen it done with the APL, but I cant see why it wouldnt have the same result provided the APL is mature enough to be the PL. The problem would be in younger troops where the APL may not have enough experience to be a PL. Ideally the APL has experience in most of the other patrol positions and is one step away from the PL. But, no matter the patrols maturity, the elected APL is certainly on notice that he will take over in six months and should use the time wisely to learn the ropes. The only disadvantage to that style of selecting leaders is that the Patrol doesnt seem to have the option of re-electing the present PL. Kind puts the APL in a bad spot. It wasnt a problem for the SPL because his time in position is a year and most SPLs are ready for a break then, and usually the ASPL was accepted by the troop. Barry

We tried all this ideas and the most fun our cubs have is riding bikes. Adults keep the herd under control, but they enjoy it enough that they can't wait for next year. Barry

No, I would not veto his appointments, but I would make sure they feel the full brunt of their responsibilities. I can't place my finger on it because you are a really good SM twocub, but there is something missing in your program if the scouts think they can get away with appointing unqualified scouts into positions that require some maturity. Maybe the troop just hasnt grown enough yet because its young, but at some point, the scouts will need to respect the positions that drive the quality of their program. They need to be concerned that bad leaders means less fun and more work. As our troop matured, our scouts got better at not only building a good leadership corp., but also pushing younger scouts into positions that would develop their skills for the long future. Our SPLs got older and more mature and several ran for the position more than once. I believe that happen because we not only made sure they had true leadership responsibilities, but also because we let them feel the true repercussions of their performance. As the younger scouts see the true hard work to a POS, they wait until they feel ready. Being a leader in the troop needs to have honor. One of the ways that happens is by how you treat your leaders and by how you hold them especially accountable for living the Oath and Law. They should hear from you a lot that they are the role models of the troop. How they act gives permission to every scout to how they can act. They need to know that you really believe it and because of that, they will learn that you are quick with both public praise and private guidance. Its part of your job and theirs. They need to understand the secret to a good program starts with a firm foundation. They are the foundation. I remember once listing to a PL respond to a patrol mate jealous of the coke he drank during a PLC meeting. On campouts our PLC meets every night to discuss the next days agenda and I usually provide a cooler of soft drinks and snacks. When the young scout made a big deal about this to the PL, he walked by without changing his expression and only said, Trust me, we earn it. We have 30 minute PLC meetings before each Troop meeting instead of a monthly PLC meeting and I always brought pizza. I want to say its a reward, but really it was my of showing respect. Thanks guys, you are the best. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

The Dennis the Menace cartoon last Saturday showed Dennis in his Cowboy hat and boots walking with his dog and telling ol Ruff that when he becomes a cowboy, Ruff will be his prairie dog. I cant think of a better way to show the spirit of a boy because they are dreamers who see themselves as adventures, heroes, and stars. They have visions of being better than they are now and see the world that way as well. They know what the world should be and how we should fit in that world. What I like best about the scouting program is that if the adults are willing, a boy can live out his dreams in the program. He only needs a little encouragement now and then to keep his train of thought. The most challenging part of teaching adults of how to develop citizens of character and leaders of integrity is impressing to them how easily adults can mess it up. Its the simple things you know, listen more and talking less. Stand behind instead of in front. Allowing a new idea when the old habit seems easier. Eventually all boys crash into the realities of life. But I dont think it should be the adult leaders who should replace a boys innocence with cold facts of life because just maybe the boy found a better way. Badon Powell had a dream of world peace through scouting. I know he was thinking about the Dennis the Menaces of the world when he started toward that dream. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

We had our own storm three weeks ago in Oklahoma City where 85mph winds took down two of my big oaks. I cut the trees into fireplace size logs and stacked along side the road with a plan of finding someone needing firewood and willing to haul it off. But no worry, I came home from work to find all the stacked logs in the neighborhood gone. I guess they did us a favor, but I really would have rather chosen the recipient of my oak because I'm sure it will be sold at a nice profit. And, they still left the rest of the tree branches stacked 8 feet high. Barry

>>IMO, an organization that builds character would teach "do the right thing" and an organization that builds leaders would lead by example and show how to right the wrongs.

I felt my first earthquake six months ago in Oklahoma City. It was more of one big bump than the series of shakes that I see on the news or movies. Since I'm not used to quakes, I ran outside to see if a plane had crashed at the airport across the street. Barry

I'm saddened that the write up is looked as old school or nostalgic. Maybe its because cooking is becoming a lost skill that it's being recognized as a primary means of building teams, self confidence, and even character. Could be what this discussion really exposes is that we are loosing the art of patrol method. While preparing meals and KP is an excellent method of patrol method, its not the only method. Do scouters understand the applications and benefits of patrol method? For our troop, summer camp has always been about improving our patrol method habits and skills, not about advancement. Of course we push fun first and advancement second to the scouts, but for the goals of developing growth in character, we purposly are pushing the scouts to function as a patrol 24 hours day for about eight days. We do this also on regular camp outs, but 8 days of living together at a more intense pace pushes everyone outside their comfort zone where the Scout Law really has to come into play for everyone to mold as a team. Experts say that a group needs at least 36 hours of working together to gain a benefit of growing as a team. That works out well for weekend campout. But summer camp just adds that little extra stress to polish a patrol. It also can break it as well. But I think my original point is that many if not most adults don't quite understand the real objective of using patrol method to apply it better and more efficiently and effectively way of developing citizens of character and leaders of integrity.. The scouting game is a fun way of teaching scouts how to react to stress using the Scout Law. That is really the basis of it all. The behavior habits they learn in scouting should be carried with them the rest of their lives. Are we short changing our scouts when they dont cook breakfast or the adults cook for the scouts? Cooking and clean up should be complex enough that almost the whole patrol is required to get it completed in the limited time given. That is the old way and I think what the write up was all about. Good discussion. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>> First Class within a year are, according to National's stats, far more likely to continue in Scouting (both on to further ranks in Scouting and also to continue later on as adult volunteers).

Humilty and practice.

>>Competition provides the incentive to learn those skills that might never otherwise get used on a campout (as was discussed in a recent thread). Competition fosters comraderie. Competition teaches teamwork. Competition fosters patrol members helping other patrol members.

That may or may not be true (probably is), but I was just giving a history lesson to the this subject of NSPs. The First Class in the First Year program itself change the BSA vision of a values program to a more advancement program. I don't know if the folks at National had that in mind, but it is the result. Barry

A little history here: National back in the 80s decided they wanted to increase the number of Eagles from I think was around 2% of all scouts. The way they chose to do that was the attacking the areas of the program where they lost a lot of scouts, which is the first year Troop Scouts. Even today, more scouts leave the BSA in their first year of the troop program than any other year. I think it has always been that way. But National created the New Scout program with the idea of bringing Webelos in with their friends and then assigning an older scout to help them get used to the troop program hopeing that it would make the first few months in a troop more friendly and easier to adapt. National also had some data the showed them that scouts who made it to the Frist Class rank in their first year typically hung around for several more years. As a result, you are looking at todays New Scout Patrols (NSP) and First Class in the First Year program. Has it worked? Well a few years ago when I compared numbers, they were about the same as around 1990. But, that is the program in the SM Handbook right now as well as the SPL Handbook and that is why so many Troops use the NSP program. Barry

We use both Twocubdad and stoshes styles of controlling bad behavior. One thing I taught our PLC is to always deal with behavior as a team. If one scout is talking while the SPL is talking, the SPL simply ask the PL to take care of it. But if it goes farther than that, you will see another PL or ASPL quietly walk over to help the PL. If that doesn't work, they will escort the scout out of the room or to the SM and let him deal with it how ever he wants. Rarely gets to that point. Our PLCs are taught to just remove the problem and deal with it later. Don't let the problem interupt the schedule, deal with the problem later or hand it off. I guided the scouts to never yell, instead just walk over or delegate someone close by to deal with the problem quietly. Save the Scout Sign to get the group attention. Don't use it to deal with bad behavior because it looses its respect in that regard. BUT, every once in a while you get a scout who just isn't going to take no for answer. I had a couple of scouts who got pleasure using their wit to get adults riled up. I learned a little too slowly that there comes a point when its a parents problem. No threats just hand the phone to the scout to call ask mom to pick them up. Whether at a meeting or campout, hand it off to the parent. In most cases when the problem reaches that point, the boy does not want to be there. It took one scout to threaten another scout with a knife (his best friend) for me to finally get that I can't fix all behaviors. I look back and cringe at all the times I kept trying to get through to the scout when I should have realized quicker it wasn't going to happen. I had the same exact situation as the OP wrote above. The SPL kicked the Quartermaster out in the hall where I was sitting. A little wiser, the scout and I went for a walk. It was a quiet discussion about his behavior, but it only took a few minutes for both us to agree that it was time for him to leave. I got a call that night from mom, turns out she had taken her son off medications and we were dealing with the side affects. You can learn a lot from us here on the forum, but in the real world dealing with behavior really takes practice. Nobody starts out doing it very well. Do the best you can this time and learn from the experience to do better next time. And let the scouts deal with it as far as they can before the adults have to get involved so that they also can use the experience to improve. Eventually the SM won't hear about most of the behavior problems because the scouts have grown quite good at it. Barry

Eagle92 does a good job highlighting the general approach. Im a little different from the others in that I would keep the SPL for two reasons: One, big changes in program generally set a troop back one step before it goes forward two steps. Two, the troop is going to need the SPL in a few months when you get the new scouts, so keep the part of the program consistent and save the hassle of going back and forth. I would however stay with one patrol, skip the ASPL and let the PL be the second in leadership stature. I think the troop needs to have a Troop Leadership Develop course for only those scouts qualified to be leaders (1st Class and above) and actually want to be a leader. While you are in a crises mode right now, you really need to be thinking six months from now. So I personally would push to get your 16, 14, 13 and 12 year old 1st Class scouts trained to work together for the troop six months from now. I know the 16 and 14 year old cant make meetings, but they should be able make a one day four hours Saturday Leadership Development Course. The course needs to be just the basics of running the troop. I would include those four oldest scouts above, the SM and the ASM. When you have a discussion about this at your campout, I would suggest the SM and ASM will be part of the trainees so the scouts can use them as resources. The objective of the Saturday training is to become a team. Get the SPL Handbook for everyone in the Saturday training and use it as the focus for everyone to work from the same guidelines. Dont make drastic changes from your program, but use SPLHB as a reference for when things get confusing or stalled. Again, since both the adults and scouts are using the same reference, you are working as a team, not as adults and scouts. Once the youth side of the program gets their confidence back and can run without the adults (three months?), then you step back out of it. As for the election, well you really need to use your SM skills in pushing for the most qualified scout to be the SPL Im saying the 13 year old really needs to be it because he has more experiences, rank and age. My thinking is six months from now in that since the 14 and 16 year olds will be back in six months, you need your best qualified scout to be the New Scout Guide or TP for the new scouts. Even if you decide to mix the new scouts with your present scouts now and divide the troop into two patrols (that is what I would do), its still good to have one scout who is dedicated in making sure the new scouts are doing OK in the program for their first couple of months. The past SPL is the perfect fit because they have confidence in working with others. You can either call him the TG, or do what our troop did and make him the ASPL. Once the new scouts are settled in, he can go about the ASPL duties. As for your Saturday training, make it only about four hours long. Thats all the scouts can absorb. Provide them pizza and pop for lunch, and a treat like icecream when youre finished. There is a great team building exercise using ice cream if you like. Keep the agenda to basics like how to Lead a PLC meeting, Troop Meeting and Campout. Get the scouts to use very basic agenda for each. I believe the SPL Handbook has sample agendas. Scouts, and really adults as well, only absorb about 20% of what you train, so I learned that what you are really training for is to develop the confidence of getting through the next meeting. Dont train your scouts to get through the next month or next year of program, just get them excited to run the next meeting. Then meet with the SPL or scouts after the meeting and discuss a few ideas to help improve the next meeting. I would suggest the same group who trained together have little 10 minute meetings before and after every Troop and PLC meeting. Become a team. I know the 14 and 16 year olds cant be there much, but you might see if they can at least come at the end of the troop meeting to listen in on how you and the SPL discuss the performance of the meeting and changes to make it better. You want everyone to feel a part of a team working together to be a better troop. Your job is to get everyone to support the other persons responsibilities. The four scouts should be seen as a bonded group who work together. If one scout hassles one of the four, then they will find themselves dealing with all four. That is how all our PLCs work in our troop. Adults should stay back. If all goes well, you guys should be working together pretty good in about three months. That is when I would start discussing how to work with the new scouts who are coming. I know that seems like a complex approach, but Ive been where you are at and it was one of the more successful ways we got out of our situation. And, Im not so proud to think this is the only way to do this, its just one of many. If all goes well in however you do this, you will look back on this in a few months and realized how much fun you and your scouts had working the problem. Your Troop will probably grow in character in the next few months more then it has in the last couple of years. I look forward to reading about your progress. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I observed while I was a CM (before I was a WDL) that the majority of the Webelos typically finished all the AOL requirements within 12 months. But since most packs traditionally present the AOL at B&G, scouts had to wait several months for the AOL presentation and never got to wear the patch. So when I became a WDL, we decided to present the patch as soon as each scout completed the requirements, thus allowing them to wear their AOL patch while they were still in the pack. I saw later that it also motivated the other scouts to hurry up and finish their requirements as well. Barry

It might worth mentioning that the AOL award is the only Cub rank award that a boy wears on all his Scout Uniforms the rest of his life, even as an adult. So that is why it does have some prestige or honor over the other cub awards. That being said, I think Den leaders are very busy people and do the best that they can. I agree that if the DL just wants to present the AOL the same as the other awards, that is fine because there is honor in that. If the DL wants a more prestigious ceremony but doesnt know how, then they can go out and ask for help from folks like us who are just looking for an excuse to have some fun. While I was the Webelos Den leader, I presented all the awards and pins to the Scouts at the following Den meeting they were earned. I like that instant recognition thing. All the parents learned to show up 10 minutes before the end of every den meeting to watch and honor the scouts who received their awards. Then I gave the award cards and mothers pins to the CM to be presented at the Pack meeting so the rest of the pack could honor and witness what the scouts had accomplished. As for the AOL cermony, after all the scouts had earned the AOL, I performed a special presentation at the pack meeting where the scouts recieved an arrow or gift. Barry

The earth moved and I found myself fully agreeing with everything BP wrote. I might add that you should ask the troops tabout heir timeline. Troops today typically plan their annual agenda with crossovers in mind. It can be more disruptive for some troops to take in a large group of new scout a couple of months before or after the standard crossover season of you district. It's no problem for others. Just ask as you visit troops. Barry

This happened with soccer in 80s and even 90sbecause all the schools (high school and college levels) were trying to become more competitive with the limited resources of a fairly new sport. Coaches of new sports are also in high demand because there are so few of them. A lot of European coaches moved to America when soccer was trying to mature. I don't know where to look for Lacrosse coaches. Barry

>>Universal health care is needed, like it or not. OR we need to give hospitals and doctors the right to turn away patients who cannot pay. We have large number of people who can afford health insurance and chose not to have any because they know hospitals and doctors have to take them.