Eagledad

The power tools restriction is a myth. I believe scouts should use power tools so that they can learn the safey behind using power tools. I've young adults tell me that my meeting on lawn mowers and lawn mower safety was one of their favorite Webelos meetings. A lot of dads even showed up for that meeting. Our Webelos used a lot of power tools for many of their projects. Many of our Eagle projects rented some fun and interesting power tools. Kind of funny, the tool that causes the most reported injuries in scouting is the bow saw. Barry

>>So please enlighten me how having money and being involved in scouting in the burbs makes you a better citizen than us poor black and Hispanic folks in da hood.

>>Ya know Barry, the scouts know who is rich or not. It is very apparent at summer camp. The troops zipping along in Gators or the rest of us eating their dust. The troops that show up in a bus, not school, and tandem axle trailer painted to match

>>Units in comfortable suburbs tend to forget this fact,

>>but we also don't want a bunch of 17 year and 364-day old Eagles either, right?

I don't have one nearby to verify it, but I believe there is some mention of a promise of FCFY in the begining of the Scout Handbook. SR540Beaver and I come from the same council, but times are changing because getting all the first year scouts to FC in one year was a common Wood Badge ticket item back in the 90's and early 2000's. Barry

I think the results of the FCFY program are more complicated than saying National is encouraging more priority of advancement. National added the FCFY in, I think, 1989 because they found from polling data that scouts who earned 1st class in the first year tended to stay in the program for at least three years. Sounds logical I guess, but Im convinced they misread the data. What they should have read from the data is that scouts in a quality program want to be involved for several years because it appeals to scouts of all troop ages. In other words, the program is so much fun that scouts stay involved for several years. If one could find the data, they would find that the BSA has struggled with first year losses long time, maybe since beginning of the program. It is in fact the largest loss of scouts of all the other ages. It took our own troop about six years to shape our program so that we didnt loose first year scouts. But as we constantly developed the first year program, we also constantly reviewed and change the rest of the program as well. After about five years, we had a pretty solid program where 40% of the scouts were 14 and older. We had a program that scouts enjoyed for several years. But we didnt start out that way. We lost over 50% of our new scouts for the first three years. A lower quality program where scouts dont hang around long dont stay long enough for scouts to get their FC in two years much less one. By simple math, a lower quality program could never show a high number of FCFY scouts because only the scouts who like what ever program existed (Leaders kids?) stayed long enough to earn the FCFY. The other part that I personally think complicated the FCFY issue is over 50% of scout leaders today never had a youth experience in scouting. Adults with no experience have to rely on training to guide the program. Women were allowed into the program in 1989, so when the FCFY program started, it still had some balance of leaders who had some scouting experience as a youth to guide the way they shaped the goals of their troop program. Adults who dont have that experience have to rely more on what National tells them the goals should be and how they should get to those goals. It is obvious to Eagle92 and I what the goals are and how to get to those goals because we have been there and done that. But what about folks like Lisabob and adult males who werent in scouts. Now I know that Lisabob has a very good sense of what a quality program looks like, but from my experience, that is not typical for inexperience adults (male or female). WE should ask ourselves, if an adult doesnt have a clue, how should we explain the advancmement method. Actually I think Lisabob did a pretty good job of that in the other thread. And its not a good or bad adult thing, adults by their very nature look for ways to know that they are performing well in what ever we do. So its natural for us who want to do a really good job and have no other frame of reference to see that FCFY gives us a good achievement number to prove that we are performing our duties well. I have found that these same adults tend to change their goals if they hang around for a few years because they start to see what works and doesnt work. National uses the FCFY program to give adults a short term goal. But, my problem with it is not just the advancement issue, FCFY also encoruages aged based patrols, which in my experience does not work well in developing a quality boy run program. I don't think National really cares because I've heard more than once that an aged base program is Nationals long range plan. Sorry this is long. Barry

Ealge92 and Lisabob 92, you and I come from basically the same experience and same mold. Lets just say that when I read your post, brilliant minds think a like. By the way, I think Eamonn created that mold for us. Anyway, I was the scoutmaster of many Eagles, and that says a lot for a true boy run program that was NOT advancement driven. We were leadership driven and personal skills driven, which I think led to so many eagles in our troop. But we had one Eagle who gave a speech at his Eagle court of Honor that still touches me today. It went something like this: And I want to thank my parents for without them, I would not be standing here today. Yes, I admit that I did not like them hounding me about earning the Eagle. But I did recognize their sacrifices so that I could earn it. My dad put in thousands of hours as a Scout Leader and my mom gave as much time on the committee. They never begged or pleaded, they just reminded me of my schedule and my goals. They were that little push I needed until I grew up enough to understand how to push myself. I share this honor with them, not because they wanted it more than me, but because they love me enough to guide me as parents should. Now that was a speech from the heart and it was the speech of a real Eagle. I heard the speech early enough in my scouting career that I allowed it to balance my principles of guiding scouts how set his path and his goals and how I guided scouts to be more self sufficient in achieving their goals. If we were to have Eagles in our Troop, I wanted all of them to be as mature as that young man. But even more, I wanted all our scouts to have that same maturity the day the left scouting, no matter their rank. To add, my 28 year old son is an Eagle, but my 25 year old left Scouting at age 18 as a Life Scout, just like his dad. So I can Totally relate to both of your positions. And in fact I think both you and Lisabob are identical in your thinking on the subject. Both of you have always been pretty consistent on this subject through the years, which makes this forum pretty valuable for those adults seeking wisdom. I thank you Eagle92 and Lisabob for that. Lisabob, I fully understand how you feel with your son. My favorite oldest son earned his Eagle within two weeks of being 18, so there is hope. My favorite youngest son just couldnt see it, and to this day has no regrets, so it will be OK. Of course parents want the best and the most for their kids. And I understand that at the core for many of us parents, it isnt about resumes or job applications, its just about reaching that bar that was set just a little higher. We dont want them to have regrets later down the road and it maybe we would like just a hint of ambition they will use in their future. I understand that its not about the Eagle, it something deeper and more important. Its about proving they will be OK in their future as an adult. It just one more little bit of evidence that they will be OK. I can only say that what helped me as a SM wanting all my scouts to set their highest goals and feel satisfied with their accomplishments was that as a Life Scout, I still have no regrets what-so-ever because the values that I gained from my experience in scouting as a youth are so ingrained in my character that I felt compelled to pass them on to the youth I encountered in my life. Not just as a SM, but as a father, coach, church youth leader and a member of the community. I didnt get the badge, but I must have got the heart because I have passed on my scouting soul to hundreds of boys and girls after me. Which is probably the reason I love this scouting stuff so much. Barry

There are as many approaches to the advancement method as there are raisins in a box of Raisin Bran. There have also been merit badge mills long before I was a scout wayyy backkkk in the 60s. Alladults have different motivations toward their vision for scouts. But the difference today that I believe has caused some of the problems we see with the advancement method is the introduction of the First Class in the First Year program. The FCFY program basically directs all adults to put advancement a head of most of the other methods. Its nolonger up to the scout to set a goal and a pace, the adults do that now. Use to, badges were in most cases recognition for a level skills a scout had learned to survive on his own in the woods. Rank had respect because it displayed scouts who you could trust to came back from a weekend in the woods. Now badges are used as markers for adults to track so they know how well they are meeting BSA set standards. Its not that adults are lazy, but how does a new scout leader measure patrol method or leadership. FCFY sets and easy measurement for adults to meet. I dont think we need to take the advancement method out of the program, we just need to remove FCFY and instead encourage a quality program where any scout could advance on his own as fast as he wanted. Barry

Eng61, what percent of the scout abuse cases occurred on Scout campouts or outtings? Barry

I don't understand the point of the discussion. If the scouter didn't ask you to leave Basement, would you still have started this thread? I have personally witnessed scouts behaving badly and we did report it to their council. Don't know if the council did anything. I remember the Canadian authority our crews had to visit on the Boundary Waters to get permission to enter Canada and use their campsites. Once all our paperwork checked out and we paid all the fees, she pulled us all together and proceeded to lecture our crews that Boys Scouts were her worst enemy because they are so destructive to the Canadian campsites. She then handed us a photo album with dozens of pictures of campsite destruction. I personally don't believe many of the pictures were the results of scouts because there was some evidence of hunting and fishing gear. But she was bigger and meaner than any of us and we weren't going to go up that stream. But she still must have had some bad experiences with Scouts to have the feelings she expressed toward us. I should have asked her if she felt this was a BSA problem or a Canadian Scouts problem, but we were ready to move on to our first portage. The problem scouting faces is the number of scout campers compared to the number of non scout campers. Our troop typically hikes trails where we don't run into too many other folks. But when do, its a 50/50 chance that they are another scouting group. With that many scouts out there in the back county, odds are nonscouting folks are going to run into some unscout like behavior. And once a person has one experience, the rest of us are painted the same color. Even Basementdweller appears to think less of scouts after his experience. Not sure what we can do about it. I really believe using the Scout Law fixes most problems, even big group situations. Our Troop breaks up our bigger groups to keep them small just so we don't sound like a herd of bears running from a fire. But it is a learning experience. I still struggle to get scouts to hold a low tone on the Boundary Water lakes. Barry

>>Each of your troops have potentially dozens of parents who are relegated to the sidelines for every outing

I guess I approached my responsibilities different, I took the unit the direction I thought it should go. If the unit leaders were on board then all was great. If the didnt, they generally came on board or left. Same goes with District or council, if they helped me reach my goals, I trusted them. If they didnt then we generally carried on without them. It wasnt often we clashed, my program vision was in the boundaries of the BSA vision and my methods werent very far off. And as I learned later, if you have a successful program, provided it isn't dangerous or too far off the reservation, they won't bug you. If I clashed with anyone, it was National and their changes to the program. Specifically the Tiger program and the aged based Patrol method approach. After trying it their way, we just had to finally agree to disagree and our record is much better than theirs. I was also involved with new development of training. National has an interesting style in developing training. But, once I got to look at the program from the opposite side, I started seeing things from a different perspective. Less experienced scouters tend to look at District Committee folks as experienced and somewhat skilled at their responsibility. Turns out that 7 out of 10 arent that experienced and I would say half dont have clue. But these are good hard working people with good hearts that want to help advance the program and holes need to be filled with some kind of peg. So I have a better understanding of the challenges of Council and the DE. I also had a better respect for the challenges of the District leaders and the DE when I started working with horrible unit leaders. Some dont care at all for the scouts, they only took the job to be in charge of something in their life. But district is left with the choice bad leadership or no unit for scouts to join. Its a tough choice. And while we are passionate about our own unit programs and respect other styles less, once you sit in a position where you can see success based on producing excited happy scouts, you start to look at the heart of each program and its leaders instead of the program style. Some scouts just flourish in an Eagle Mill. Is that really so bad? The bible says humility is required for wisdom. I understand that now. Same goes with council. Ive been here long enough to work under a bad council leadership and good council leadership. Its a huge difference. Then there is walking in the shoes of National. We tend to think of National as one entity, but the reality is that National is lots of little entities working independently. Some are good and some arent. I will say that while I do respect the challenges of running a national size program with national size struggles. And while I may or may not agree with the direction they are taking, I do respect that paid professionals have a different motivation than volunteers. Survival is human and I dont think that is wrong from their perspective. But, I just dont feel there is really good vision or organization leadership from the top. So trust, I dont know. Its true what they say about walking a mile in someone elses shoes. After doing it as long as I have, I can honestly say I like this scouting stuff and I respect a lot more folks now than I did when I started. Whether you are paid or not, working in a volunteer organization is hard at all levels. Barry

>>Barry, It's all just a prelude to the world ending in 2012.

Earthquakes, tornados and flooding, Oh My! Exciting night, we had a 4.7 earthquake, a pretty good tornado and lots of flooding from the torrential rain. I didnt feel the earthquake because I was driving home in the rain, but my wife did and she said it felt like a slightly smaller train than the one this weekend. I will have to do some research because I dont have a good feel for the Richter scale numbers. Apparently this 4.7 did enough damage to close a school. I really cant complain about the four inches of rain, Oklahoma is in its worst drought in recorded history. So we take what we can get and are glad for it. I could do without tornados, but that just seem to be part of Oklahoma. Still, I wonder whats next, a volcano eruption in a nearby wheat field? Barry

Wow, central Oklahoma had two pretty big earthquakes this weekend. This is a new experience for us. Rocking and rolling for about 30 seconds with the second one big enough to do a little damage. I didnt feel the second one because we have season tickets for Oklahoma State Football and the stadium was rocking and rolling as well. But I knew it was pretty big because I was talking to my wife on the phone when it hit and she was a little panicky. You dont think 58,000 people yelling, screaming and stomping their feet trying to save a football team from loosing could have caused the earthquake, do you? We did sqeeze out a win but, well I don't know. My wife and I like to travel a little and when folks ask where we are from, when they hear we are from Oklahoma, they typical response, "Oh they place with all the tornados". Are we now going to be from the place with tornados AND earthquakes? Can you folks in California give us some instructions on what to do during these things? Where should we go if we are in our home or in a stadium with 58,000 other people? Should we make a fun noises like when we were kids crossing railroad tracks? Can we get earthquake insurance? Oh by the way, the weatherman this morning says we are under a server thunderstorm and tornado watch today and tonight. Ah! That feels more normal. Have a great Scouting Week. Barry

Here is some real Hope and Change. ""Sixty Senators Decry 'Wildly Imprudent' Bonuses at Fannie, Freddie"" http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/11/04/sixty-senators-decry-wildly-imprudent-bonuses-at-fannie-freddie/

>>I'm curious, JoeBob. What do yeh think of da bailout CEOs gettin' 8-figure bonuses?

>>I think a lot of folks are projecting or being told what the OWS crowd is for or against. Much of that is thier own fault because they havn't done a good job of communicating a specific message.>They are going to have to act like something other than a bunch of derelicts to do it, though.

Your big problem is who the Gate Keeper of the vision is in the troop. There is someone who is going to drive the program. Usually that is the adult with the stronger opinion. I look at as the unit Alpha Adult. You need to identify that person and see what there vision is and how they think the program should get there. Of course training and experience is a big part, but if the SM didnt train the new SM during the last year or two, there may not be a co-understanding of the program. I started training my replacement two years before I left by having him participate in each ASMs job. And I took many walks with him to explain why he was seeing what he saw. If your adults dont really have a good common understanding of the goals and methods to those goals, I think you should volunteer to do some Unit Adult Training of the Aims and Methods and how Your troop is doing that. Our troop does that very class after each SPL election and I asked every parent to attend. Im glad youre thinking this way not to head off future problems. Good luck. Barry

This has been a good discussion. I cringe for you folks that struggle with these problems because Ive been there and done that and its not fun. It is a character developing experience that I feel almost develops too much character. I think this group has it figured out. The best way to prevent large groups from struggling with different philosophies of program is to bring in like minded families. Its interesting to learn that in study of successful Fortune 500 companies, the number one common application for success of the most successful companies was a model of only hiring employees that agreed with the companys vision. In other words they didnt hire just anyone, they only hired those who believed in the same vision. That is what we eventually came to doing by giving all visiting scout families long verbal explanations from the adults and SPL of the program, and a parents guide that explain in detail our troop vision, how we go about implementing that vision and details of the troop program. The parents guide basically includes much of what John-in-KCs list included. Of course there is the risk of not getting as big of New Scout group, but you dont end up with unit splitting from disagreeing philosophies. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Its important that any adult who wants to get involved in the program be assigned tasks and given reasonable expectations of performance for the task. But its important to bring in the right person to do the right job. They rarely speak about it, but the number one frustration of Council and district leaders is volunteers taking on responsibilities that they don't perform. The troop is no different. I'm a pretty good recruiter, but I learned over the years to try and put the right person in for the right job, or you just end up frustrated. I also learned over the years that people don't change,s so don't repeat your mistakes. Fail me once, shame on you. Fail me twice, shame on me. Barry

>>SM training has helped a number of ASM's see the light.

>>I visualize these parents as a great flock of helicopters flying off to bother their new SM.

I'm surprised the obvious hasn't been mentioned, the addition of women leaders. Yes, I also come from the generation of skinny dipping in the creek at summer camp. The adults didn't do it with us, but I can't remember them hanging around at all anyway. I also don't remember showers. I do however remember not being allowed in the house after summer camp with any of my clothes and being escorted by my mom strait from the garage to the shower. Can't remember why. Fast forward 20 something years to my first campout as a Cub Scout leader (Webelos summer camp) attending that same camp I attended as a youth where we skinny dipped to hide the heat of the day. My first shock was womens restrooms. Not to long after that was the shock of WOMEN! Don't get me wrong, I wasn't challenging the idea of women leaders, I just wasn't ready to see it at my old camp. The next day of swimming was a little surprising as well, one of the Webelos Leaders was a younger very attractive brunette. I can say that because she had the full attention from most of the teenage Boy Scout staff who told us that she was a young very attactive brunette. I hadn't noticed myself, but my coleader, who was also a very active scout as a youth, looked at me and said what I was feeling, we arent in Kansas anymore. It was a surreal, the camp director was a women, much of her adult staff were women. They were very good at their job and ran a very good camp, but it just wasnt what we were expecting from a Boy Scout summer camp, even a Webelos Boy Scout summer camp. To top off the week, all the adults were ordered to a meeting one night in the dinning hall. Dinning Hall, that wasnt there 25 years ago, whats that all about? Anyway the camp director wasnt happy and gave us a stern lecture on youth protection rules and the seriousness behind them. Hey, I had only been a scouter for a month, this was the first I had heard of youth protection. Anyway apparently some adult had violated the rules by mixing with the boys in the shower. My co leader and I looked at each other than shrugged. We werent really sure what the problem was because that was pretty normal when we were scouts. Even with the cut brunette with her trail of Boy Scouts following her around, we still didnt clue into the idea of females in camp. Details werent given, but we scouters, parents really, felt the impact of the camp directors stern words. She was very serious and confusion was also in order. Well as it turns out, it was a mother who went into the showers to check on her scouts that cause the scandal. The boys were spending a little more time in the showers laughing, yelling and just having a good ol time, and frankly she just wasnt used to boys wanting to get that clean. But like a normal mom, she noticed the boys clothes on the dirty floor and like most mothers she hung around awhile to pick them up. She was just being a mother doing what most mothers do and that was pick up behind their kids. W Both my co leader and I almost quit scouts after that camp, but the discussion of things being different in the Troop kept us going and as it turns out, both of us were Scoutmasters of successful programs. Now if you watch close enough, there are plenty of books out today that in one way or another speak on the feminization of males in America. Im not getting into if it is good or bad, the discussion even comes up in this forum now and then. But, comparing my experience as a youth in scouts and today, we have certainly feminized the male culture. The scouting program as a whole has been feminized and there is no going back as far as I can see because close to 50% of the scouters are moms. Im one of those males that believe that boys should go through some rights of passage to grow into healthy adult males. Im not talking about secret rituals with drums and war paint, although that would be cool. Im talking about the experience of going to the bathroom in the woods. Men and boys sharing the showers without the idea that it is risky or wrong and 200 men and boys sleeping together overnight in a gymnasium on their way to Philmont. Even boys skinny dipping in the stream to cool off from the 105 degree hot summer day. However, guys, those days are just about gone. If you dont thinks so, just ask your wife. Barry