Eagledad

BP, I think you and SP are saying the same thing. SP just gave less detail. The short answer to the question is No. If the CC is disapointed in the vote, than he or she didn't present the other side well enough to sway the results. Vote again. Barry

Alabama Scouter just described exactly how the Easy Chair adult should work around scouts and adults. I found training adults to do boy run was a lot harder and more frustrating than the scouts. Thorns and roses in the BSA was encouraged for the adults, not the scouts. Backpacking in the mountains is the ideal environment for scouts to learn self discipline, accountability and team work. I teach in scout leader training that the clock is a much better teacher of decision making discipline and accountability than the nagging adults because the clock tells the scout when he has failed without the adult even being near. The afternoon mountain showers work exactly the same way. If the scouts dont get up early and get moving, they will be hiking and setting up their next camp in the rain. If the rains have thunder, they will likely not even reach their next camp. Their gear will get wet and dinner will likely not go well. The one hitch to that clever scheme is the adult who forces the scouts to act on his or her own time clock. Many scouters dont view boys as inexperienced adults, they are instead seen as children who dont take time seriously. Untrained Scouters by nature dont trust that boys can learn from their actions, so they replace natures teacher of being uncomfortable with preemptive direction and rob the scouts of their lesson. The adult is a much better encourager of change when they as just another member of the team standing face to face with the crew leaders in the rain asking for a new plan for tomorrow. I believe there is a no better method of team building and patrol method than mother nature. Laser tag is a close second, but that is a different discussion. When allowed, camping in the back country with mother nature forces leaders to emerge and makes followship noble. Everyone works for the better of the group. Back country treks develop lean confident teams who come home knowing they can conquer the world, but the adults have to let it happen. Barry

>>Once determined it was a simple mistake, you would think it would have been solved.

Philmont does not allow hammocks hung from trees. Been there and done that. Barry

I was surprised to hear this on the news because I have found the agents who check and compare the boarding passes to IDs to be very thorough. AND how did the out dated ticket get by the airline ticket agent? Barry

>>If the field uniform is going to be worn all day, every day, six days a week during summer camp, you'd better have a washing system set up in the campsite ... or else be getting a bulk discount from Supply!>That Alabama troop sounds like a group of Stepford Scouts. Scary.

I think this happens a lot, but most units just let it go. We had the parents of a cub keep about $400 of popcorn money their soned earned. It was a difficult situation because the father was mildly retarded and mom only earned minimum wage. They were also getting federal assistance, so you can understand why we took the family in a year earlier as a charity. The family was very meek, so we weren't even sure they knew what they had done. Money was not a problem for our pack and we let it go. Bary

>>The thing our scouts do not like about Philmont, is that the adults are suppose to sit down, and let the scouts do all the work!

>>(and they do have some disadvantages over folders).

Summer camps are always a fun place to see how other troops choose to wear the uniform, but I found Philmont to be the most interesting because some clothes just dont work for backpacking. We saw several crews who all wore the same class B down top the socks. Then there was the crew that wore Full Class As during their whole trek. I cant think of more uncomfortable clothing for backpacking, but our crew was impressed by those guys. Our crews always wear Class As before and after the treks in a show of pride and bonding, but it seemed extra special after watching that crew. But the crew that gets the best dressed award was a Troop from Alabama that not only wore full BSA issued Class Bs all the way down to wearing the same brand of boots, but they all had the same brands of equipment and gear as well. I mean all their gear like backpacks, sleeping bags, even the pack rain covers were all the same and the same color. Nothing cheap either, all the gear was top quality brands. And every member in the crew used hiking poles. We knew when we were behind them by the millions of tiny little holes poked in the trail. That crew looked pretty impressive and must have cost them a fortune. Our troop isnt always the best dressed troop in the camp, but we generally do make a good presence. I like a good looking uniformed troop, but attitude is also what folks remember about many troops no matter what they are wearing. Showing a good attitude with songs, cheers and jokes also makes the whole experience more fun for everyone as well. Barry

>>Of course, you may have meant that the southern woman had several of "my people" with her on the plane.

The way I got my PLC on board was first asking them to read the uniform requirements in the Scout handbook, and then asking them if they were living up to the scout law in their decision of how they are choosing to wear it. I will also admit that while the adults and PLC are in full uniform, I've never seen 100% of the scouts in our troop in full uniform. I've never seen 100% of scouts in full uniform in any boy run troop. Rebellion is a natural result of limited or loss of freedom. There are very good reasons for a scout to wear the uniform, but if he isn't convinced of an value, he is telling you that you haven't given him a good reason yet. Most boys go through a phase of wanting to stick out as an individual and I think it just forces us to be better at teaching the values of wearing a uniform. Wearing a uniform just to have a sharp looking troop is a shallow state of mind. There must be value in everything we do. There must be a valued purpose to wearing a uniform. Barry

>>On my recent backpack I took some leftover Philmont food that "expired" in 2006. Yummy! Absolutely perfect. I'd say if people are getting sick, remind them to wash their hands after pooping.

>>Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are much different than those other organisations.

I'm sure there are some passengers that make us all look bad, but I've not seen it. The problem passengers I've seen are the ones who have not traveled before and don't know the restrictions or prceedures. The was the very nicely dressed southern woman with enough Jewry to anchor a small ship. She also didn't understand the ID and boarding ticket process. Then there was the whole family that never travel on an airplane trying to bring a small suitcase of fruit drinks through security. The father who finally did read the restrictions couldn't save grandma and grandpa a head of him, but manage to whisper something to a TSA agent and was escorted to a closed room. That family had taken the attention of 6 or 8 TSA agents for about 30 minutes, but I remember they were patient and courteous the whole time. I think most travelers dread the security process enough that they don't try rock the boat and just want to get though it. As a pilot and aeronautical engineer, I used to never get tired of flying. That changed with 9-11. I still try to get a window seat near the wing however. I am a DOT employee and it's pretty much agreed that we are not treated well by the TSA. So we are instructed to hide our IDs in our bags. But sometimes a DOT employee has to show there ID and generally a new story is created. I'm glad members of the DOD are treated well. I can say that general demeanor of TSA agents is local to the airport. Some airports are better than others. Kind of like boy scout troops, the demeanor of the scouts is usually a reflection of the SM. Barry

I use a 4inch sheath knife for hunting, sounds you guys are using swords. Barry

As frequent flyer, I've gotten pretty good at what I should wear throuh the metal detectors, but I experienced my first X-ray check. Good news was no trace of cancer or broken bones. Bad news was they found a pair of plastic reading glasses. That trggered the proceedure to send my obviously plastic reading glasses through the X-ray by themselves and me have the first body frisk of my life. My other complaint is the inconsistency of TSA personell. I have been told loudly by a cranky elderly woman that I had to separate my IPad and computer for X-ray at one airport and scolded to perform the opposite procedure at a different airport. I don't know if it is normal, but the security personnel in Canada are very pleasant and seem to enjoy their job. I have developed a lack of respect for the TSA through my experiences, but a few weeks ago while my wife and I were in the Phoenix Airport waiting for our Oklahoma City flight, we sat near enough to hear a discussion between TSA agent and a person he was escorting who obviously needed some help mentally negotiating the airport. Turns out both men were Marine Vets and both had been injured in Iraq. The gentleman who required help was going to a Marine olympics for injured retired Marines in Oklahoma City. The discussion between the two men talking about the friends they lost and their for love our country had my wife in tears. That one TSA agent made up for all the bad form of the others. Barry

>>I don't think we can protect our children from this sort of thing. I do think that it's important that we take the time to talk with them and listen to them so that they gain an understanding that things are wrong and some things are indeed sins.

>>'Sin' implies a particular deity. If you write your laws based upon a particular deity, don't you have to exempt automatically everyone who does not believe in your deity? Can we discuss 'wrongs' with the same gravitas?

>>But I have not see Moose say BSA should, ought to, needs to or should have to adopt, change, relax, or rewrite any rules due to the UK, or gay scouts.>We are pompoue & smug.. In some cases we have our rights, in others we are not in the position to feel superior, and our attitude is causing big problems. You should always look at what others are doing to figure out ways to improve. You may not like 80% or feel it will not work in our situation, but then the 20% is worth taking a closer look at.. Improvement doesn't come by looking within, it is from looking at what others do, or welcoming diverse individuals into your group ones with different ideas who may shake you up a bit.

Well I dont agree that Americans are pompus and smug toward other cultures in other countries. I certainly dont agree with Moosetracker that we dont look at others to improve. Moose is focused on Gay Scouts and seems to suggest that including gays would improve the program. He doesnt suggest where it would improve but he does say right out that if we would just compare, we would change because of the advantages. Oh really moose, you only need to look at the performance of the other scouting organizations in North America that made the changed to see the drop in numbers to wonder why any reasonable person would want to do that to the BSA. My family travels abroad quite a bit, and although I personally havent been to Europe yet, what I have seen of Americans in other countries is that they generally behave in the countries the way they behave at home. Easterners have a different way about them than Westerners. Not good or bad, just different. Even abroad, I can kind of identify what part of the US that person lives, but in general Americans are polite and humble in other counties. There are certainly jerks from the US that travel. But let me just say that its the same with other countries. My experiences abroad are that Americans in general are much more approachable by reputation than citizens of some other countries. There are many countries where its normal to treat pworkers in the service industry (waiters, maids, store clerks) as lower class people. Americans in general dont do that. Americans actually tend to get pushed around a little because of their humble ways. We are used to a lot of space and like that space even in crowds. Folks from more populated countries are used to body to body contact in crowds and almost see our space as an invitation to squeeze in. This many times invites people to move closer to the head the lines by just simply jumping in line. People from other countries dont hesitate to ask them to move back, but except for Americans from the East Coast, most Americans will just let it happen because they dont want confrontation. So if anything, Americans are taken advantage because of our kind nature. I see this a lot at airports while checking luggage. I used to work a lot with folks from Great Britton in my industry and I didnt have a lot of respect for the younger English for a long while because I worked with so many of them who were pompus jerks that didnt mind putting Americans in their place while they were guest in America. I have since worked with enough Brits to learn that pompus jerks are not the norm, and Ive come to really enjoy their humor. That being said, because my earlier experiences, Im probably the only American that finds the English accent grading. Kind of like how the English feel about the French. Moosetracker has a personal axe to grind that is political in nature, I get that. But he is totally wrong about singling out American the way he does. Ive learned through my travels that the people of each region of the world have their own ways, good and bad. I think everyone in every Country should be proud and defensive of their country. Maybe we should be more open minded as well, but that IS NOT just and American trait. Its almost everyone. Personally I enjoy listening to someone brag about their country. You can learn a lot from that. And in general if you get further in discussion, they are also open to the problems of the country. Im saddened that most of the American bashing that goes on here are by our own Americans, but I know they dont know what they are talking about. The one thing that just about every person in the world identifies with the US is the Stature of Liberty because she represents freedom. Few other countries have that generalized vision from the rest of the world. We should value that. Barry

I seem to remember we had a discussion a few years ago on this subject and a BSA expert on our forum at the time (Bob White) pointed out the rules do allow closed meetings if a unit chooses. In fact, I think he prefered it that way. Barry

Establish a vision within the confines of the BSA and direct the program toward that vision. Barry

>>It seems Americans are pretty much regarded as the filthy beasts thorughout the world, ill mannered uncultured and pretty much not nice.

>>There should be an agenda published ahead of time and adhered to. This minimizes disruption and dominance of the meeting by any one person. Start on time and end on time. Any items to be discussed need to be forwarded to the CC in advance for inclusion on the agenda, at his discretion. Anyone not a registered committee member does not get a "vote". And, I agree, most business was conducted by consensus, not formal voting.