Eagledad

**At a recent troop meeting a 14 year-old Eagle said to a 13 year-old Tenderfoot: "You've never advanced, and you're never going to advance for the rest of your life." Not very Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, or Kind. As SM, how would you respond** Im still not sure why the PLC is involved at this point of your troop maturity. Do you expect them to deal with every discourteous comment made by preteen and teen boys in the troop? Discussing how to deal with bad behavior is challenging enough, now they need to deal with rudness? It's not like I haven't been in the same situations, but I am just not seeing how you are trying to get this kid to focus. It almost appears that you are very angry with this scout and trying to figure out how to punish him for what he did to the other scout. I would rather assemble a board of Eagles (both adults and youth) so he can listen face to face from his peers. And while I fully agree that this scout doesn't see himself in conflict with the Oath and Law, his Eagle peers certainly do. He is not getting the big picture that hopefully they can paint for him. The thing is that even though he may not see the light come on as far as his behavior, he will learn that others do and watching. They will hold him accountible everytime he steps out of line. Our scouts are told that they are held at a higher level (adult) as soon as they hit the rank of star or age 14, whichever comes first. This is a tough age, I seen 14 year old scouts like this make a complete change by age 16.

I don't think I read a single reply the mentions Scout Oath and Law. I would not call this bullying, but it is certianly very rude and un scout like behavior. My conferences in similar situations pointed out that Eagles are held to a higher standard because they are viewed by the community as role models. Then I ask him what model he just represented? How does his behavior fit with the Oath and Law? Then I dismiss him giving him time to think out it so we can talk again. Part of the problem is that while this kid appears to be smart, he is also inmature. He is physically still on the child side of his life. He may see the harm of his behavior, but not the wrong and is not going to change anytime soon. But get him to acknowledge the wrong of his behavior and he will at least he know that he will be left accountibile for both knowing the scouting values and for being an Eagle. Barry

Twocub said pretty much what I was writting. Barry

Call your nearest state park and ask them, they are always looking for help. We typically build bird houses.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865598084/Building-responsible-men.html ""Unfortunately, the overwhelming good in the Scouting program is being drowned out by narrow political agendas. That is a shame, because no other program or organization has matched the record of the Boy Scouts in helping boys grow to become responsible men and fathers.""

Oh I will stay local, but I'm a big picture guy and I always look to the future of the program. Lately I've been reading a lot of illusions on forums of dividing troops in half to send away older scouts to protect the younger scouts and make the program more interesting for the older scouts. That is just one example, but folks today just don't understand the value of role models for teaching and I'm amazed at the number of adults who are just plain uncomfortable with the idea of older and younger scouts working together. It wasn't a problem 25 years ago when the vast majority of adult leader trainers had a scouting soul that came from their youth, but today camping out doors is actually intimidating to a lot of adults. As I said, around 25% of adult becoming leaders today were never scouts and most of them never camped. It takes a heavy hand to balance their vision of using rank and advancement as the main drive for their program when scout growth is based on experience of adventure. It's not their fault, when adults don't understand how camping drives character, they instinctively fall back on what they do know, class room style guidance. And like all of us, these adults want to measure if they are doing a good job as leaders, so how do they do that? Well they do it by what they do know, stature; rank and advancement. They just don't understand how patrol hikes make boys into men. Scouting has always had naive adults join the program, but the number of “been there done that†old school scouters outnumbered them and showed them the way. Not anymore, the program is being taken over by the scouting ignorant. I don’t mean that derogatorily, I mean that today’s adults just don’t understand the value of the outdoors in teaching boys to be men. Out doors is uncomfortable for todays adults and scouting skills scare them. They look at woods tools as weapons and reactively prohibit what they don’t understand instead of learning their proper use. As I said, it wasn't bad a few years ago when there were still a lot of old school scouter still around, but they are being quickly outnumbered by adults who's idea of teaching scout skills is pulling everyone in a room and showing pictures. I'm not whining about adults with bad intentions, I whining about progress and cultures change of expectations. And we can’t change it; the genie is out of the bottle. In our culture’s desire to be progressive, the machine takes casualties as it rolls over natural behavioral instinct with its idealism. I have worked with some really good female scouters and have no regrets, but do to the fact that they never had the youth experience of being boy scout, they have unintentionally feminized the program and created an unequal balance of nurturing over the masculine instinct to serve the community. I guess that seems unfair to some, but reality is what it is and there is no going back. Character has become passé. The Scout Law is no longer the virtuous guide of ethical maturity, it’s just words in a book. As I said, it has always been this way, but the program kept balance with those who had knowledge and experience. Now that knowledge and experience is outnumbered with well-intentioned ignorance. There are a lot of theories of where financial support comes from and why it’s going away. As with many theories on this forum, most folks are wrong. The vast majority of donations come from alumni. Of course the ridiculous theory of the quid pro quo is mostly wrong as well. Most donations given to the BSA are given from a passionate heart. It’s the same as those who give to their school or fraternity because the life changing memories of their youth. I had a friend who was very involved with the Campfire Kids program when they changed the program to accept gays and atheist. He said Campfire Kids suffered immediately because their large base of alumni donors bailed on the program. They will never recover because there is no equivalent for donations of passion. That was 25 years ago and he said if the BSA ever makes that same mistake, it would fall even farther because the Campfire Alumni support was less than 1% of what the BSA. I think we are seeing some of that now, but I have talked with enough people to see a deeper reason of why they are pulling their support. It’s not directly a result of the membership policy change, but more of a last straw. They simply don’t see the same BSA program that gave them the passion for scouting in the first place. The membership policy is just one small indicator of the direction the BSA has to go. And that direction for many is not scouting. I’m starting to get it now. Keep up the good work Matt, I meet adults all the time who thank me for their scouting experience. Some of them have three kids now. One autistic man the other day at Target walked up to me and pulled me aside to thank me for this experience in the troop way back when. He never camped and his time in the troop was a brief 18 months because of his many phobias, but it must have been significant, I could see it in his eyes. We forget how noble being a scouter volunteer can be. We have influence that we may never understand. I know of three engineers who give me credit for choosing that career path. If those are the kind conscious decisions scouts make because of our influence, imagine how we might have influenced some of their unconscious decisions. Well done Matt, well done. Still, I love this scouting stuff. Barry

There is so much irony in this thread, I'm amazed more hasn't been said. We preach even here about standing up to bullies, yet we let it go on. Barry

From Basementdwweller - I hope someday we will return to Lem's scouting and hope that as corporate America bows to the pressure of social media and vocal minority we will see it happen. '' And just what does that kind of scouting look like Base? Give or take, only about 25% of new adult volunteers had a scouting experience as a youth, just how do you expect to go back to old school scouting if nobody knows what that is? I know you have your encouraging style of helping new moms understand real scouting, but there is only one of you to save the world. I admit that after reading the forums lately (not just this one), I think traditional scouting is a thing of the past. For my own mental health, I will either have to turn away from scouting for good, or settle with the idea that some scouting is better than no scouting. I'm so glad I got my boys through scouting when I did. Barry

Hi joe, from my own experience and working with other troops like yours thru the years, I learned that you have to build "your" vision with the younger scouts. The older scouts are set in their ways and will resist change. Appease the older scouts, but build your vision with young guys. Your program isn't moving because they resists every step of the way. Young scouts are empty vessels excited to try something new. Everything looks like an adventure to them. Sit down and figure out how you can give the young scouts the troop and still give the older scouts something that keeps them coming. I do not like aged based patrols, but this once instance where it us the solution because it separates the excited young scouts from the boring plop campers. Also remember that the young scouts will eventually be the older scouts. So what you build today will be the models of your troop next year. Good or bad, you're stuck with it. So it's best to try and get it right. One other thing I can see from your post and a few others here, you don't see them a young men who lack experience of life. As long as they are just boys to you, your body language and even the tone of your voice will never show them the respect of an adult. They have little reason to aspire into behaving like adults. I think you are going the right direction, but change has to come from the young guys. Barry

Our troop follows the same policy and I'm curious Matt, do your scouts pretty much go to their tents at the same time like ours? It just seems that when they are ready, they all go to bed. And it is usually before the adults. Like Matt, I believe "time" is the best motivator of discipline. This is why I ask for an agenda from the SPL before we leave on the camp outs.

"About quarter to one the SM got up, got dressed, walked to the noisy tent and announced a three scout night hike starting now! The three scouts walked a mile out of camp then back as the SM followed them in his car keeping them in his headlights." I did this exact same thing. It was four new scouts excited on their first night of summer camp. Our adults don't camp with the boys, even at summer camp, so these boys had to be pretty loud to keep me up. I don't like to yell. I don' t yell. I quietly asked them to get dressed for a hike. We walked about mile talking about this and that, then went back to bed. Our troop's program typically wears the scouts out. They are dead by 10:00 pm. We don't mind scouts whispering with excitement, In fact, I kind of like it because my tent partner and I solved many of the worlds problems in our tent when I was a scout. But when they can't live by the scout law, the SPL is held responsible to solve the problem. The only reason I didn't bother the SPL at summer camp was we had a long hard day and he was whipped. So I handled that one. But, if your guys are still restless after a long day, you might consider that the scouts aren't planning enough program. Add a game of Capture the Flag somewhere in there to finish them off. Also campfires intentionally mellow scouts down. Campfire followed by a cracker barrow is almost like a sleeping pill. We don't plan Webelos weekends, we just include them in our normal campouts. We wore out 18 Webelos families one year on a campout. They were so beat by Sunday morning, they left after breakfast. I thought we would never see them again, but we crossed over 18 new scouts two months later because once the soreness wore off, they realized they had a blast. Barry

I once listen to a gay activist way back in the early 90's explain that their group's long range goal was change the public's view immorality as religious myths. I think they did just that.

The BSA's largest donations came from alumni. I don't know how much that suffered from the policy changes, but isn't coming back. Personally I believe the BSA at the moment is the best it every will be.

So you think the gay lifestyle is only about sex? I'm not sure the homosexual community considers you a friend. I'm sorry bob, but you won't find anywhere in the bible that righteousness requires tolerating to point of acceptance. If we follow your principles, then we must accept and embrace role models who are recruiters for the KKK, known convicted felons including sexual predators who have done there prison time. You support a dangerous and ridiculous assumption that all ALL behavior is safe for our children so long as we don't talk about it. If you think homosexuality is fine for you kids, great, but don't be judgmental to those that disagree. that would be intolerant.

Jesus also said not to lead children away from God. There is a difference between loving the sinner and condoning the sin. Accepting Role models who openly promote sin as an acceptable lifestyle is irresponsible. Barry

You can ease your concerns mom, one of my first Eagles was born totally deaf. To be honest, I can’t ever remember it being a problem for him because he can pretty much do what all the boys can do. He was much easier than learning disabled scouts. Our scout went on Philmont backpacking treks as well as canoeing in the Northern Tier. He could read lips well and believe it or not, spoke clear enough to fool people into not knowing he was deaf. So he had to remind people now and then they needed to look at him to read their lips. I remember him as one of my more cantankerous scouts because he actually was the one who like to tease other scouts. And then when someone would talk to him about his behavior, he conveniently couldn’t understand them. I had watched how he had no trouble in group conversations, so I called him on it and he was very embarrassed. He never pulled that trick on us again. He was a pretty good Patrol Leader, but leadership really wasn’t fun for him. Not because he was deaf, he just didn't like responsibility. The only time I saw his disability be a problem was on his EBOR. A day before his review, I called the Eagle Board Chairman to tell him our scout was deaf and needed to make sure they look straight at him when they spoke. But the chairman thought I was asking a favor, so he stopped me short of explaining the situation. Well long story short is that when the board members realized in the middle of the review that he was totally deaf, they were very flustered. He passed with only three questions asked. And I chewed them out later because he really was looking forward to showing off his skills. I have worked with many handicapped scouts and I always suggest to the parents and unit leaders that the parents should be involved to make easier on everyone. But from my experience at least, I will go out on a limb and say I don’t think a parent of a deaf scout needs to be present for their son to have a positive experience. Our scout had great parents, who would do anything for their son, but they gave him his independence in the troop and we never had a single problem that I felt having a parent would have helped. I also don’t like parents of disabled scouts to feel unit leaders are obligated to take on the baggage of their sons handicap. But again from my experience, a deaf scout who can read lips is not a burden on the leadership what so ever. In fact, they will enjoy the experience. True, you need to be a little picky on the unit and scout leaders, but your son is one case where just about any leader can handle the situation. I can’t imagine all the things going through your mind right now, as a parent this is so hard. But, I think your son can actually be the one to show you how to do this. I teach in the adult classes that the troop is the real world scaled down to a boys size. Your son is about to go through the physical and mental changes of becoming a man. I honestly can’t imagine a better place for all our sons to practice being an adult than in a troop. Scouting is a good place for your family. Barry

Of course they will weather the storm, there is tradition even in a name. But the GSA has been fighting the membership problem for many years with program changes that keep tilting progressive. The BSA just started their righting (lefting) of the ship. Looking at all the other youth scouting organizations in North America that have made progressive program changes, the BSA membership will likely never be as good as today. Someone on another forum the other day showed the membership of other youth organizations like FFA and 4H being stable or growing. Those are conservative programs, which means there is a place for parents who want their kids in stable values programs. I'm personally not a Trail Life fan because I don't think it encourages boy run, but 75% of adult volunteers in scouting today didn't have a scouting experience as a youth. They don't have a clue what boy run means. They want safety and security for their son on campouts with strange adults. Reading some of posts of leaders on this forum the last few weeks, no way I would send my son off with them. There are some hateful comments toward conservatives. But just as importantly, even liberals want to feel safe with where their kids hang out on the weekend. If Trail Life can do that, the program will probably do OK. The GSA fighting for it's life is an example that the worst thing that can happen to the BSA is that it develops a reputation for liberal leaning ideals. Barry

To be fair, states our requiring the camps to make the infrastructure up grades to meet state code.

A few questions, maybe this isn't the right place. How does a camp drive MB frenzies? I mean summer camp maybe, but a camp site? What are bible thumpers and why are they hypocrites? Just trying to understand, your world seems very different from ours. Barry

…I on the other hand, have 5 boys in a brand new troop and they are all 11 years old…..It’s all a matter of perspective stosh, we started with 12 Webelos. The philosophies of getting from A to Z are basically the same, just in much smaller doses. Young scouts are willing but don’t have the stamina of older scouts for the weight responsibility, which is one more reason why they need more free time outdoors. I found new scouts can stand about three months of group leadership before they burn out. That works for you because there is no election cycle in your troop. But the key is observe and know when the scout has reached his limit. It’s easy to see, when they don’t want to come back, the adults pushed too hard. I agree with the gap MattR mentions, that is also the age where they struggle with uniforms. 16 is a wonderful age for scouts. I found that scouts 15 and under to be the worst Troop Guides. But scouts 16 and older the best, even better than adults. Barry

I can see leadership and advancement are very important to you stosh and that is the big difference between our two styles. See, what you describe as SM approved duties (is approved a fair word?) are normal expected actions in our troop. Our scouts aren’t expected to have the maturity of PORs for couple years. But they are expected to develop habits of a servant heart, or living by the scout oath and law from day one. I call it a servant lifestyle. Leadership in our troop is just way of expressing a servant heart, or what is normally called servant leadership. Where you and I differ a lot is how we develop the leadership skills. Not good or bad, just different. My philosophy for leadership development is developing leadership skills during normal troop activities while the scouts are young. Positions of responsibilities (POR) in my mind are only opportunities to practice the skills the scout has already learned, not where scouts go to learn leadership skills. The scouts in PORs are encouraged to reflect on their experience to understand their performance and change some of their habits to improve or grow. We expect them to naturally be servant leaders because they are using servant skills they practiced in their everyday scouting activities. On average, our scouts won’t be on the PLC until they are around 13 years old, and I really prefer PLs be at least 14 because that is the age where I’ve learned they get the most from their leadership experience. That is the age were they really grow. And it’s not that we adults hold them back, (our scouts have full control of their destiny in the program) but the patrol leader’s responsibility in our troop demands that level of maturity and the scouts know it. Of course we have our 12 year old natural leaders who by their nature accel faster. I really enjoy watching them in action, they are special. I’ve worked with hundreds of scouts, I’ve only had three or four natural leaders. You know what I’ve learned about natural leaders, they don’t care much about advancement. Rank is boring to them. Isn’t that interesting? I believe scouts between the age of 10 and 13 should focus more on adventure and less concerned with POR’s and advancement. Both those will come naturally at the pace of the scout’s personality. You are focused on scouts advancing and making sure your scouts progress isn’t held by lacking a POR. We are different in that I could care less about the scout’s long term goals in advancement, leadership or anything really. My obsession with scouting is developing the skills of a moral decision maker. I also obsess for a program that doesn’t get in the way of a scouts farthest ambition, and in the short term develops his confidence to go the distance. We have 14 year old Eagles, but the average of our scouts going to their EBOR is around between 16 and 17. If you were to ask them why they took so long, they will tell you they were busy. If an 11 year old scout has some ambition for leadership responsibility, the SPL will look for something that he can handle at his maturity like leading our monthly road side trash pickup or planning and leading a COH. There are many opportunities to practice being a team leader, so it’s not a barrier. But personally, I would really rather the 11 year old lead a hike in the woods or even go fishing. I know how boys dream and the dream of an 11 year old is different from the dreams of a 16 year old. The program can handle both, so I don’t like to hurry the one at risk of sacrificing the other. We have almost as many scout between the ages of 14 to 17 as we have 10 to 13 years old. It’s interesting while I know we are very much the same, it’s our differences that give us very different perspectives of scouting. Not good or bad, just different. Barry

Your scenario failed the scout in the BOR. You imply it's because the adults in the BOR are heartless following the BSA guidelines when the scout and SM didn't. Your story changed quite a bit in your reply to me. You have some good advice to help leaders with their programs, but you feel the need to describe the other adults as heartless and controlling to make your point. Even more confusing is your post wasn't the context of the OPs question. The BSA program gives us a lot of latitude for helping scouts grow in the program, SM assigned PORs is just one of the tools to give us that latitude. I have given many SM assigned PORs to many mentally and physically handicapped scouts. And I also have wonderful success stories of disadvantaged boys who were a success in the troop as well as life now as an adult. One last thing about SM assigned PORs, the CC and parents need to be involved with the assignment to insure there is no confusion while the scout performs the duties and during BOR. Especially with handicapped scouts. In fact, depending on the severity of the handicap, I would also include the district commisioner in the process so that there wasnt any confusion at the EBOR down the road. Barry

Why do you assume the BOR judges the scout differently than you? Why would a competent SM allow a scout to consider his day to day normal duties to be considered for POR credit when nothing in the hand book supports it? The BSA troop program gives adults a lot of room to work within the guidelines. Your making this scout suffer for your defiance against a system "you" don't like. Did you warn his parents before you set their son on this trail? You preach boy independence, but do you have the courage to let the scout use the Scout Handbook to guide his scouting experience instead of following the Stosh Handbook? A little more Scout Handbook with a little less adult guidance and I don't think your scouts will find themselves in your straw man scenarios. Barry

Still trying to polish your social skills on the new parents BD? Your rant reminds me of the old Saturday Night Live skits where Dan Aykrod yells "Jane you ignorant..hmmm". Well you know. Scoutmom, you are basing your questions under the misunderstanding that the main objective of the POS (leadership) experience is for advancement of rank. Evem many troop leaders have that misconception. Positions of Responsibility are intended to give scouts practice in real life situation of making decisions based from the Scout Law. While we parents by nature tend to look at the gratifications of stature for our children, that is not the primary mission of the Scouting Program. The program mission as stated by the BSA is:The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. POS or Leadership is one of the many methods of how the BSA accomplishes their mission. But you should also understand that POS experience isn't very useful unless it challenges a boy at his level of maturity and scouting experience. If the troop is running as designed, the Patrol Leader really should have a couple years experience in the troop to have the maturity and scouting experience for a quality leadership experience. I know there is a lot to learn about scouting and how it works, if you don't feel comfortable asking in this forum, there are several other Scout forums a little more understanding to new parents looking to learn. That being said, there are also a lot of good scouting direction here as well. Barry

Yes, the whole point of this exercise is to help the participants better understand how new scouts feel when joining a troop. We changed this part of the JLTC syllabus (NYLT predecessor). After all the participants arrived and before we did anything else, we instructed all the scouts that they had 30 minutes to form 8 man patrols, elect a leader, assign every patrol member a responsibility, then give the roster to the SPL. We felt the stress of finding 7 other patrol mates and forming a patrol from a room full of strangers gave the same effect without the deception. It wasn't simulation, those were the patrols for the rest of the week. Barry