Eagledad

Good post skeptc. Less than 25% of adults today had a BSA youth scouting experience. It is challenging to offer a program for youth when the adult leaders only source of direction comes from adult training. Public disrespect isn't going to change, so the scouting program will have to change to survive. Likely the experienced adults will not approve of those changes because they will pull away from traditional outdoor program. BArry

>> An unchangable standard, but it doesn't matter which of various unchangable standards are used. Or even if they're unchangable (as the BSA has never had such a requirement).<< Ah, I can understand why an atheist would struggle with that. Christians, Muslims, and Hebrews all “do their duty to God†to the full extent of their religion. Barry

>>I know that there are other factors to both Countries.. But, Eagledad would like to believe Canada is solely due to gays, and ignore England because it doesn't fit his argument<< I was actively corresponding with several Canadian Scout leaders back when the program changed because I liked some of their program design ideas that helped me with my program. I remember clearly when those scouters announced they were dropping out because of the policy change. It wasn’t just admitting gays, it included admitting atheist. Canada at the time had either the first or second largest Boy Scout program in the world at the time. It lost somewhere between 60 and 70 percent over the next 10 years or so before it leveled off. Of course it also sold A LOT property and assets to deal with the problems. But let’s not ignore programs even closer to home. I don’t know the numbers but the Campfire Kids had a big membership loss that was directly associated to accepting gay leaders and they have not recovered to that level yet. I know this pretty well because a close friend’s wife was at the national level of the organization. They’re biggest issue was the loss of alumni contributions which was huge. Then there is the Girls Scouts, they took a big hit as well when they allowed gays, but they are so deep in reacting to political activism, it’s hard to understand what exactly took them down. I’m confident that it’s 100% liberal. As for the BSA, I agree with stosh that it will take a couple years to see the real effect of the policy change. Back when I was accumulating national membership data for Webelos and Troop memberships, I was frustrated because I had to monitor numbers for 18 months minimum to follow one scout. And that doesn’t mean he was active either. National doesn’t have a system to know their exact membership at any one time. It can never know how many active members it has because it can takes at least a year to filter out scouts who joined but was never active. In my opinion, scouting can’t survive liberalism because the program is wrapped around encouraging individual values based from one source, which is God. Doesn't matter which, god, but god is the one unchangable standard the Oath and Law are held grounded. Liberalism by its nature defines values at a more institutional level which dramatically limits individualism and encourages local values that change with change in local leadership. The program has to move away from a fixed set of morals to induce its own set of values, or lack thereof. The BSA will have change to a godless camping club to survive, much like the Young Men’s Christian Association (YMCA). But even at that, it will never have the numbers of last year. That’s not theory, it’s history. Barry

We don't watch the boys during their activities. We might go watch just for our own entertainment or participate for enjoyment like on biking and rappelling activities, but not to monitor or babysit. Young men won't act like young men until they are given the room, independence and responsibilities of men. That being said, maturity and experience have to be considered for the activity. I think your adult just doesn't have enough experience with the boy run philosophy. I've said before that I think a SM needs to spend 50% of his efforts with guiding and teaching adults the program so that they understand and buy in to it. Barry

I don't remember the exact numbers, but the Canadian Scouts is a fraction of what it was in 2002. That is the result of liberalism. Canada used to be considered the best scouting program in the world. They barley resemble that program now. The best that can be said is they finally hit bottom. They are still struggling to keep their heads above water. As for the BSA, the numbers will never be as good as 2013. That is a direct result of liberalism. Especially if they invite gay adults.

The Canadian Scout are struggling to survive. The European values are certainly more liberal than North American.

Not really DT, role modeling also includes our values. Would you want young boys follow a SM who is also a known KKK leader? Like it or not, we hold people accountable to the values they represent. Doctors, police, priest, are titles that represent values we expect them to role model. Barry

"However, he said if his sons had a gay leader, "we would have to take a look at making other arrangements."" Gay leaders (role models) is and has been the main issue from the beginning. Barry

I have the solution, I've seen it used in YMCA little league in our area. Don't keep score and give all the scouts who participate a trophy at the end. It's not very good for developing character, but nobody goes home disappointed either, especially the adults. I came from a very competitive troop and the first question I ask all of you is what if the scouts don't want to play? To be competitive, the scouts have to practice a lot. I've never seen a competitive patrol or troop that didn't have some adult motivation behind them. I'm sure even the super patrol the OP describes has an adult in the back ground. How bad do "you" want your scouts to win? That is likely the measure of well the scouts will do. Like every competition in life that we participate, practice is required to accel. Are you as an adult willing to accept that because the scouts will need a little help. Barry

Interesting stuff Moose, as you know, personal experience is relative if it's only local. We've had a SM pedophile case not too long ago in our area. I know for a fact we are not alone by any means. As for only 7% gay pedophiles! what percentage of the population is gay? Sheesh, I'm a better representative for the gays than those who are controlled by their emotions. Do you really think the gay community is satisfied by the lame argument of not talking about sexuality. You are basically suggesting Don't Ask Don't Tell. The whole point of this situation for the gays is being accepted for their sexuality. It doesn't matter whether we talk about it or not, gays want their sexuality accepted as "normal". Don't belittle them by dodging and weaving around it. It's assumed that a married male SM with a wife is normal, why can't a married male SM with a husband be normal? Don't you see? As I said before, experts tell us role models can have a lot of influence with our sons. Don't discount that reality. It's the moral problem that dictates this discussion. And please don't let your emotions against the conservative side blindly treat the the gay community unknowingly with disrespect. I may not agree with their behavior, but i truly believe they have goodness in their hearts. Except the activist. Barry

With all due respect Jpstodwftexas, when I read statements that are incorrect wrong like no child molesters caught in the BSA or 99% of child molesters are married heterosexuals with kids, how can we trust any insight you give us in the future? That doesn't mean the BSA is more of a risk with gay molesters than other youth centered organizations, but it certainly isn't less either. Using the word homophobic only shows your bias on the subject and a lack of confidence of supporting your opinion in an intellectual discussion. Youth protection isn't the real issue of gay adult leaders anyway, it's gay adult role models. Role models have a real influence on youth. How does the BSA convince parents that a gay influence isn't dangerous to their sons. That is the elephant in the room. Barry

Your right stosh, you're mincing words. A good boy run troop requires an adult with vision. Barry

I'm not kidding OX, 99% of troops wouldn't exists without adults. Barry

Reputation is the biggest risk of setting a limit to size. Eventual failure is pretty typical. But Bases program appears to be a stricter than average program anyway with the attendance requirements and appears to be working for them. The success of the program is a direct relation of the SM. It is very likely that Bases replacement will have different results. I've done this awhile and it is likely that Bases replacement will not have as good of success either. I would not recommend Bases program style to other SMs, but it does seem to work for him. Hard to say Bases replacement will have a mess to clean up. The future depends on Bases pride and humility. But he is off to a good start and that is rare. Hard to mess with success. Barry

The problem with your philosophy stosh is that boys don't start or build troops. A troop is only as boy run as the vision of the the adults driving the program. And one mans boy run is another mans eagle factory. Whose to say you talk a good talk ,but..we'll you know. I can't respect the statement that mega troops are adult egos in overdrive because I've observed mega troop leaders who don't have a self serving bone in their body. They just have a style that works best for working with large programs. If you want to demonize bad leaders, at least pick on actual bad leaders to demonize. You will find adult egos in all sizes of troops, even so-called boy run troops. And if mega troops isn't your style, good for you. But there must be something there of value for so many families to pick mega troops programs. Barry

Oh for Pete sakes Base, you can't just ask a question and expect a one size fits all answer. Run the best program you can and deal with the numbers that works best for you. Some are capable of doing that with large numbers. It's not about personal ego, it's about personal skills. The assumption that a large troop can't be boy run is just that, an assumption. And it is a bad assumption. There many large good true boy run programs. One basic answer to question is a large troop has a lot more resources for more activity choices. A ski trip for a troop 20 may be a lot more expensive than a larger troop because a parent has connections. Barry

I'm impressed, well done. Size is the function of the SM's skills of running the program. You seem to have drawn the line. The much much harder question is how to split a troop. The odds are roughly 5 to 1 that the second troop will fail and eventually go back to the other troop. Given a choice, not accepting new members is the better choice for all the scouts because scouts going with the second troop are more likely to quit for life if it fails. It would be better to send new scouts to another successful troop. Are you missing a hidden benefit of the Mega troop? Not if that isn't your cup of tea. Scoutmasters of mega troops have to get used to using trailers and need to work well with other adults, which may include rich businessmen, pilots, gun owners, and even home schoolers. And ironically the more scouts usually means less one on one time with them.

Getting the discussion back on track, I agree with you point that social changes bring discomfort and poltical agendas are necessary to alleviate the discomfort. But politics is about grabbing power and that takes dollars. Ironically the gay activist didn' t have the money to buy the poltical power until funding came for AIDS cure research.

I have stood firmly in this forum for many many years on the position that the healthiest lifestyle for raising the healthiest children are families with a mother and father. Anything less, is a lot less. There used to be a lot of data to support that claim, but recent studies attempt to suggest otherwise. My life experiences and observations are counter to these new studies and this article, to me, explains why. Now I am fully aware of those on this forum whose opinions are fuel by politcal bias and have little ability to approach any subject fairly. Still, I think this is a pretty good article that explains the present pop culture of social science. The article is centered around homosexuality, but in my case I think any family without a mother and father is at a disadvantage, not just families with gay parents. However, homosexuality is the pop culture thing right now, so the subject seems to center most studies. But it is an interesting read: http://www.american.com/archive/2013/december/scientific-groupthink-and-gay-parenting

Well since you are there Cambridge, enlighten us of the Daily Mails inaccuracie's. Barry

Removing reverence is removing moral values. The result is turning a character development program into a camping program. A youth program cannot survive off the theme of camping, so Fred is exactly right. Removing reverence is the death of scouting. Barry

It's interesting to watch the discussion of this wonderful young man. We have many scouts (my older son included) who were so busy with scouting that they didn't do their EBOR untill a couple of weeks before their 18th birthday. What I find so interesting is most of those guys (my son included) could have cared less about an award. I agree this scout needs some recognition and I don't have an answer to the original question, but I would be careful that this recognition isn't more important for the adults than the scout. What ever you choose to do for this scout, you are setting a model for all the other scouts in the troop. So be careful what you are trying to say. Barry

As I read this discussion, the one main thing being left out are the goals of the program. Mainly in this case the Aims: character growth, fitness (mental and physical) growth and citizen (social selfless giving) growth. The BSA gives explicit guidiance to going toward those Aims with the Eight Methods. The patrol method is the best way for scouts to use a "balance" of the methods to reaching the Aims. Now there is a lot of adult theory in this discussion that seems to complicate the questions. So instead go back to basics by using the Patrol Leaders Handbook and SPL Handbooks and let the scouts figure out the best ways to solve their problems using the simple guide of those books. But remember their isn't a troop method in the BSA, only the Patrol method. We adults tend to complicate situations when we want help scouts in their struggles. But really if we keep the program simple (patrol method), the scouts can figure it out. Get back to basics by reading the material and cutting out the clutter. Then see what the scouts do with it using their handbooks. If they can make the SPL work, great and leave them a lone. If a position is too much overhead, trust me they will change it. They just have to know you trust them. Barry

It seems like you have a pretty good grasp of your situation Bokris, you just need some experience to learn how to do your job better. We are all there because good scout mastering is continued growth through humility. It never stops. I tell folks all the time time that I did more things wrong than I did right, but somehow we did ok. Learn from the trials so you know how to do it better next time. As for the 12 year old maturity, I teach adults to balance the youth leadership with enough of adult energy to give the scouts growth. Understand that growth comes from the Scouts' discovery of making good decisions baised from "their" experiences, not what the adults tell them they should learn. But we must understand that 12 year old SPL has neither the maturity or experience of a 16 year old SPL. Your program has to challenge the 12 year old to grow so they can be the mature 16 year olds without overwhelming them and taking out the fun. That is a HUGE challenge for the adults because they have to constantly step back as the scouts grow. How much room should you give scouts? Enough to find their limits to crossing the line of not being fun anymore, then pulling back just a small bit. Remember, adults have to learn more faster so they don't get in the scouts' way. Where troops fail is when the adults get lazy and quit learning from the experiences. Barry

A few things from my phone. One, I visited a different troop once a month for five months to see how other troops operated. I learned a lot. Two, we try to brief parents of youth leader expectations before elections so they know what their sons are getting into. Three, I always tried to talk to parents in person. If that won't work, then on phone. They are much less aggressive and more open to a friendly conversation. A quit easy voice always encourages listening. I once had a mother yell at me during what could have been a very difficult situation envolving several families. I told her I was coming to her house that moment to discuss (defuse) the situation. We had the matter settled 30 minutes later in her living room after a very friendly conversation. Barry