Eagledad

>>Eagledad - Absolutely not, I'm fine with BSA;s change to values.<< I don't understand, what changes to values? Vision, Mission Statement, Oath and Law have not changed. . Barry

I understand you frustration Fred, but I don't agree with your solution becaue it assumes that all adults are equal and all troop programs are good quality units. My District and Council experience is that about 50% of the troops are good quality while the rest are either in transition or just plan bad programs. Your solution would force 50% of the packs to join low quality programs. Also, while we each have our ideal troop programs, families have different goals for their sons and one troop size doesn't fit all. Likely the BSA would loose more scouts with that program. However, I do agree with you that troops creating activities just to recruit new scouts is a distraction to the intended troop program. As far as I could tell at the time, our troop out of 19 was the only one that didn't plan anything special for visitors. Instead we told Webelos leaders that they could visit our program anytime they liked. We didn't mind surprise visits to Troop meetings, but did ask a weeks advance notice for campouts so that the PLC had time to make accommodations for the extra visiters. We also found that camping overnight was a bit much for Webelos families and just visiting the troop for a day through campfire was plenty for them to see us in action. Their suggestion not ours. While I was on the District committee, I was encourging Troops to not plan special events for recruiting, but Webelos recruiting weekends are a major planned annual event for several troops and they weren't about to change. Barry

Also recently from the UK and discussed on this forum: “A girl guide group faces being thrown out of the national association after refusing to force members to drop God from the oath.†The boys may not be too far behind. Seems god is getting in the way of good scouting. Barry

Moose, you keep trying to debate this at a personal level. We are talking about the conceptual design of the whole organization. Values based from what Pack18Alex calls devine nature is not theory, it's reality by design. Your need to debate the reality shows that either you don't understand the intent, or that you don't agree with it in the desgin and would rather the BSA change it's values away from a devine scource and move toward a youth activities theme program like the YMCA and little league baseball. Your debate is not whether the BSA's values are centered from a Devine Nature, because it is. Your argument should be to take god out of the oath and law so that there are no adult membership restrictions. Barry

>> Pack18Alex: Scouting, with its Scout Law to be taught to minors, requires the existence of black and white morality. It doesn't require any one specific black and white morality, it does require one. Without granting the power to the supernatural to define morality, everything becomes, "it depends." So while BSA is defacto Protestant while being officially non-sectarian, it doesn't reply on Protestant morality so much as divine morality, pure truth, pure black and white.<< Thanks Alex. That is exactly what I was trying to say, but you stated it more clearly. Barry

We had a scouter similar to your adult and we were always having discussions about his style of leadership. He didn't care for mine, but I was the SM. He isn't going to change, so keep him balanced or in check during activities with other adults. Lesson learned is "never" allow him to be the adult in charge at an activity. Barry

Nice post EmberMike. For a little balance, the bible does not justify or condone slavery, it only teaches godly behavior for people in that situation. It does not contradict any of Jesus other teachings, instead it supports them, I don't understand your personal stand of homosexuality, but maybe you don't have a good biblical understanding of sin or how Christians should behave around sinners. Read the bible and you might be surprised that you aren't so liberal. Barry

I don't think you give yourself enough credit Moose, you can hardly say that your post are kind to conservatives. It is clear that you think yourself better, instead of different. I also get a kick out of liberals not being angry at this concervative Pope. Must be his delivery because his grounded principles are the same. But in the premise of your post, if religion were taken out of the oath and law, then what would anchor the traits of the law to have any continuity to the vision of making moral decision makers? How could an organization maintain integrity if the values are based on the ground level of the leader who looks no farther than teaching boys the skills that will get them to the next rank? Like any great movement, the foundation of its vision has to come from something greating than man reacting to emotions of the moment, otherwise it follows changes in the wind. As soon as the population looses the respect of the scouting's values, it looses its mystic to something better than just a club that goes camping. Repeating the oath, law, even the Pledge of Allegiance will fade away as old time rituals that hold little meaning. Go visit the YMCA if you doubt me. I'm not saying it won't happen, I'm just saying it won't be a values program when it does. By they way, I've heard this is exaclty what happened to the Canadian Scouts. Barry

Good post skeptc. Less than 25% of adults today had a BSA youth scouting experience. It is challenging to offer a program for youth when the adult leaders only source of direction comes from adult training. Public disrespect isn't going to change, so the scouting program will have to change to survive. Likely the experienced adults will not approve of those changes because they will pull away from traditional outdoor program. BArry

>> An unchangable standard, but it doesn't matter which of various unchangable standards are used. Or even if they're unchangable (as the BSA has never had such a requirement).<< Ah, I can understand why an atheist would struggle with that. Christians, Muslims, and Hebrews all “do their duty to God†to the full extent of their religion. Barry

>>I know that there are other factors to both Countries.. But, Eagledad would like to believe Canada is solely due to gays, and ignore England because it doesn't fit his argument<< I was actively corresponding with several Canadian Scout leaders back when the program changed because I liked some of their program design ideas that helped me with my program. I remember clearly when those scouters announced they were dropping out because of the policy change. It wasn’t just admitting gays, it included admitting atheist. Canada at the time had either the first or second largest Boy Scout program in the world at the time. It lost somewhere between 60 and 70 percent over the next 10 years or so before it leveled off. Of course it also sold A LOT property and assets to deal with the problems. But let’s not ignore programs even closer to home. I don’t know the numbers but the Campfire Kids had a big membership loss that was directly associated to accepting gay leaders and they have not recovered to that level yet. I know this pretty well because a close friend’s wife was at the national level of the organization. They’re biggest issue was the loss of alumni contributions which was huge. Then there is the Girls Scouts, they took a big hit as well when they allowed gays, but they are so deep in reacting to political activism, it’s hard to understand what exactly took them down. I’m confident that it’s 100% liberal. As for the BSA, I agree with stosh that it will take a couple years to see the real effect of the policy change. Back when I was accumulating national membership data for Webelos and Troop memberships, I was frustrated because I had to monitor numbers for 18 months minimum to follow one scout. And that doesn’t mean he was active either. National doesn’t have a system to know their exact membership at any one time. It can never know how many active members it has because it can takes at least a year to filter out scouts who joined but was never active. In my opinion, scouting can’t survive liberalism because the program is wrapped around encouraging individual values based from one source, which is God. Doesn't matter which, god, but god is the one unchangable standard the Oath and Law are held grounded. Liberalism by its nature defines values at a more institutional level which dramatically limits individualism and encourages local values that change with change in local leadership. The program has to move away from a fixed set of morals to induce its own set of values, or lack thereof. The BSA will have change to a godless camping club to survive, much like the Young Men’s Christian Association (YMCA). But even at that, it will never have the numbers of last year. That’s not theory, it’s history. Barry

We don't watch the boys during their activities. We might go watch just for our own entertainment or participate for enjoyment like on biking and rappelling activities, but not to monitor or babysit. Young men won't act like young men until they are given the room, independence and responsibilities of men. That being said, maturity and experience have to be considered for the activity. I think your adult just doesn't have enough experience with the boy run philosophy. I've said before that I think a SM needs to spend 50% of his efforts with guiding and teaching adults the program so that they understand and buy in to it. Barry

I don't remember the exact numbers, but the Canadian Scouts is a fraction of what it was in 2002. That is the result of liberalism. Canada used to be considered the best scouting program in the world. They barley resemble that program now. The best that can be said is they finally hit bottom. They are still struggling to keep their heads above water. As for the BSA, the numbers will never be as good as 2013. That is a direct result of liberalism. Especially if they invite gay adults.

The Canadian Scout are struggling to survive. The European values are certainly more liberal than North American.

Not really DT, role modeling also includes our values. Would you want young boys follow a SM who is also a known KKK leader? Like it or not, we hold people accountable to the values they represent. Doctors, police, priest, are titles that represent values we expect them to role model. Barry

"However, he said if his sons had a gay leader, "we would have to take a look at making other arrangements."" Gay leaders (role models) is and has been the main issue from the beginning. Barry

I have the solution, I've seen it used in YMCA little league in our area. Don't keep score and give all the scouts who participate a trophy at the end. It's not very good for developing character, but nobody goes home disappointed either, especially the adults. I came from a very competitive troop and the first question I ask all of you is what if the scouts don't want to play? To be competitive, the scouts have to practice a lot. I've never seen a competitive patrol or troop that didn't have some adult motivation behind them. I'm sure even the super patrol the OP describes has an adult in the back ground. How bad do "you" want your scouts to win? That is likely the measure of well the scouts will do. Like every competition in life that we participate, practice is required to accel. Are you as an adult willing to accept that because the scouts will need a little help. Barry

Interesting stuff Moose, as you know, personal experience is relative if it's only local. We've had a SM pedophile case not too long ago in our area. I know for a fact we are not alone by any means. As for only 7% gay pedophiles! what percentage of the population is gay? Sheesh, I'm a better representative for the gays than those who are controlled by their emotions. Do you really think the gay community is satisfied by the lame argument of not talking about sexuality. You are basically suggesting Don't Ask Don't Tell. The whole point of this situation for the gays is being accepted for their sexuality. It doesn't matter whether we talk about it or not, gays want their sexuality accepted as "normal". Don't belittle them by dodging and weaving around it. It's assumed that a married male SM with a wife is normal, why can't a married male SM with a husband be normal? Don't you see? As I said before, experts tell us role models can have a lot of influence with our sons. Don't discount that reality. It's the moral problem that dictates this discussion. And please don't let your emotions against the conservative side blindly treat the the gay community unknowingly with disrespect. I may not agree with their behavior, but i truly believe they have goodness in their hearts. Except the activist. Barry

With all due respect Jpstodwftexas, when I read statements that are incorrect wrong like no child molesters caught in the BSA or 99% of child molesters are married heterosexuals with kids, how can we trust any insight you give us in the future? That doesn't mean the BSA is more of a risk with gay molesters than other youth centered organizations, but it certainly isn't less either. Using the word homophobic only shows your bias on the subject and a lack of confidence of supporting your opinion in an intellectual discussion. Youth protection isn't the real issue of gay adult leaders anyway, it's gay adult role models. Role models have a real influence on youth. How does the BSA convince parents that a gay influence isn't dangerous to their sons. That is the elephant in the room. Barry

Your right stosh, you're mincing words. A good boy run troop requires an adult with vision. Barry

I'm not kidding OX, 99% of troops wouldn't exists without adults. Barry

Reputation is the biggest risk of setting a limit to size. Eventual failure is pretty typical. But Bases program appears to be a stricter than average program anyway with the attendance requirements and appears to be working for them. The success of the program is a direct relation of the SM. It is very likely that Bases replacement will have different results. I've done this awhile and it is likely that Bases replacement will not have as good of success either. I would not recommend Bases program style to other SMs, but it does seem to work for him. Hard to say Bases replacement will have a mess to clean up. The future depends on Bases pride and humility. But he is off to a good start and that is rare. Hard to mess with success. Barry

The problem with your philosophy stosh is that boys don't start or build troops. A troop is only as boy run as the vision of the the adults driving the program. And one mans boy run is another mans eagle factory. Whose to say you talk a good talk ,but..we'll you know. I can't respect the statement that mega troops are adult egos in overdrive because I've observed mega troop leaders who don't have a self serving bone in their body. They just have a style that works best for working with large programs. If you want to demonize bad leaders, at least pick on actual bad leaders to demonize. You will find adult egos in all sizes of troops, even so-called boy run troops. And if mega troops isn't your style, good for you. But there must be something there of value for so many families to pick mega troops programs. Barry

Oh for Pete sakes Base, you can't just ask a question and expect a one size fits all answer. Run the best program you can and deal with the numbers that works best for you. Some are capable of doing that with large numbers. It's not about personal ego, it's about personal skills. The assumption that a large troop can't be boy run is just that, an assumption. And it is a bad assumption. There many large good true boy run programs. One basic answer to question is a large troop has a lot more resources for more activity choices. A ski trip for a troop 20 may be a lot more expensive than a larger troop because a parent has connections. Barry

I'm impressed, well done. Size is the function of the SM's skills of running the program. You seem to have drawn the line. The much much harder question is how to split a troop. The odds are roughly 5 to 1 that the second troop will fail and eventually go back to the other troop. Given a choice, not accepting new members is the better choice for all the scouts because scouts going with the second troop are more likely to quit for life if it fails. It would be better to send new scouts to another successful troop. Are you missing a hidden benefit of the Mega troop? Not if that isn't your cup of tea. Scoutmasters of mega troops have to get used to using trailers and need to work well with other adults, which may include rich businessmen, pilots, gun owners, and even home schoolers. And ironically the more scouts usually means less one on one time with them.