Eagledad

The course has changed in the last 20 years, but we modified our versions over the years to fit our needs. Experts say that you will be lucky if this age group gets 20% of what you are throwing at them. A lot of adults take that to mean giving out 200% hoping they get enough. We took that to mean take out that 80% of the course we absolutely don’t need and work the program so scouts instead learn that 80% by observing role models. We also split the course into two courses. Our true skill introduction course was an overnight once a year course while the part that reviews POR responsibilities and expectations was presented after each election and only lasted an hour. Scouts hate repeating training courses, so we split it up so scouts would only get the parts they have never seen before. Also, our courses are usually followed with lock-ins so the scouts can play games all night long. The PLC considers that one of the benefits of being on the PLC. Observe and ask your scouts what part of the course they like and don’t like and figure out how to make the parts they don’t like different and better. Or don’t do those parts at all. Professionals in psychological development say that we humans learn 90% of our behavior by observing others. Observing in my book doesn’t include listening. Some training is important for behavior development, but also develop your program so that scouts get most of their education by observing other scouts during in the normal troop environment. Get them out in the woods and human nature will take care of most of what you are trying to get. Barry

We look at maturity, not age. Our JASMs are usually respected by both the adults and scouts as the Go-To scouts because they know how everything works. They are master scouts. It is not usually a POR the scout seeks to fill a requirement for advancement. Barry

I wasn't saying that the program is supposed to change. Some things need to updated for sure, but my point is the program changes as a result of the skills and abilities of the adult volunteers entering the program. My observation is that has not been a good thing for scouting overall. Barry

I really don't know what skeptic was trying to say. I think stories of the old days are great and fun to listen to, but I imagine my dad was listening to the same stories in 1944, when he was a 15 year old SM. I also have, or had, quite a bit of knowledge of the ends and outs of the program and in my opinion most folks here don’t have a clue why the BSA numbers are really declining. Oh it’s nice to validate ones biased personal opinion based on a local experience, but I think you would be surprised by the reality. And yes, I agree that the BSA seems to struggle to keep the program outdoors, but when you start to understand that 75 percent of new scout leaders today did not have a boy scout youth experience, then you can see why there isn’t as much demand for the back woods experience in the first place. And I while I admire and fully respect the efforts of women in our program, as long as they are allowed to have some input into the future of the program, it will only get worse. No disrespect to these noble hard working volunteers, but how can a program realistically maintain a consistent level of outdoor adventure and experience when the average adult proposing future changes didn’t have any experience as boy scout or outdoor experiences in the woods? Truth is the BSA has always changed with the times because the adult volunteers who drive the program use the skills and tools of their time. But when the culture started to detest the skills and methods of scouting, the program started losing its way toward becoming irrelevant. In the early days, the experiences of learning the skills required to survive in the woods also gave a boy freedom and confidence to work toward personal dreams. Scouting isn’t about freedom today. It is more about program because program is all the vision todays adults know. Anyone dare to let a patrol hike off for the weekend by themselves? Forget BSA policy, would anyone here encourage a patrol to camp for the weekend by themselves? Why not, don’t they have the skills? What’s the use in teaching confidence of independence if the adults lack the confidence to let the boys test their skills through independence? Today’s adults aren’t equipped to run the program of 25 years ago, much less 50 years ago. So to move forward, the BSA must change to fit with today’s adults. Is that what skeptic was trying to say? Barry

There are lots of ways to deal with this, but I have found that once burn out starts, it's hard to stop. Why do you feel you have to fire ASMs to bring more in? Just bring more ASMs in. Consider, annoucing that you are retiring in one year to take of CC and need to train the replacement. As a CC you can still have some control to support the program you started. Barry

We had a special needs scout once who couldn't complete a MB because of his handicap, so we called our district and asked for advice. We sat down with the District Commissioner discussed a plan and altered a requriement or something. I don't know what the offical word is on altering MBs, but that was how we approached it. Barry

Yes, I left it alone a day or two because I thought someone else would answer. I also felt kind of bad that it sent the discussion on a different path. The two adult policy is probably the most misunderstood and misused BSA policy. As for the JASMs, I sort of agree with Sentinal that the JASM is a good place for adult transition. But I had a few really good 15 year olds where the JASM position fit them best because they were such good all around scouting role models. As I said before, I don't focus on titles and POR so much for the olders scouts, I focus on putting them in situations of maximum growth. That is very difficult for the older scouts because most troops tend to focus on the younger scouts. But I believe the success of the younger scouts is directly related to the success of the older scouts. Barry

I also have been away a couple years, but I think the rule is still no one adult with one scout, which is solved by multiple scouts in the meeting. The two adults is for camping. Has that changed? Barry

You guys are making this too hard. The objective is scout growth and the challenge for the troop is to keep the scout challenged at his age and maturity. If you do that, you will end up with a lot of scouts like quazse describes. Don't let titles, rank or stature get in the way of their growth and you will have several scouts who perform better than the ASMs and even the SM. Call the scout whatever you think he deserves, but allow him to keep learning and growing. From my own experience it is hard to step back and let a scout do what are normally my SM duties, but it is inevitable for a troop that keeps maturing. Some scouts are just better at scouting than we are. ​Barry

>>My sons have had both really great MBCs and show very poor MBCs. I in now way view their receiving MBs from either as unethical. It was the experience they had. Simple as that. Plus, I really don't like then the inference that the other scouts they sat next to had lower ethical standards or are less worthy of rank advancement when it comes.

What about the scout's responsibility for a quality MB experience. Our troop guides the scouts in the purpose of the MB experience as well as how to enjoy the experience. If the counselor is just signing off requirements without really giving the scout a quality experience, the scout needs to make some ethical choices. I can't say that we are different from your troop to how we work with the scouts, but I have seen our scouts quit a counselor or redo a completed badge with another counselor because they didn't feel they were getting a quality experience. I'm sure there are scouts, as well as adults, who will "game" the system, but the program is about developing character, so we should encourage ethical choices by the scouts at the begining so they can make the right choices and not wait for some adult to intervine. Barry

Our council uses a MB Card that requires only one SM signature at the begining of the scouts MB process. How does a MBC signature imply unethical behavior? It can't, which is why National doesn't have a problem with a SM MBC. One of the challenges of being a good SM is what they don't know because when someone states mater-of-factly that the SM can't be a MBC, the SM might believe it, thus tying their hands of an opportunity for helping a scout’s growth. I believe the biggest barrier for scouts’ growth in all units are adults creating rules, regulations, restrictions and protocols based from their fears. I used to teach a class on this very subject helping adult leaders get their program past the adult fears. Look at the post in this discussion and look at the self-created MBC “guidelinesâ€Â. Most if not all are based simply from the fear of an adult making an unethical decision. National doesn’t support these guidelines, but you would think they were written in stone by the tone of scouters giving them. The OPs basic question was “Do you know if there are any limitations or restrictions for the merit badge process when a SM is also a MBC?â€Â. He followed with reasons for asking the question, but the simple answer is “The limitations for a SM are the same as all other MBCsâ€Â. Now some adults' fears may lead to adding more requirements and that is fine because all of us do it to some degree. But when we add requirements, we risk creating a barrier to a scouts growth because we lose the meaning of the process or method. From Nationals perspective, there are no more requirements on a SM being a MBC than any other registered scouter. And as far as I can tell, the MBC is the highest authority of the scout's performance for recognition of MB requirements even if the SM has a place to sign after all is done. Seems silly to me personally because I can't imagine how that signature could trump the MBC, but it's that fear thing again. Barry

What are National's published checks and balances for a SM being a MBC? Barry

The SM's responsibility is to provide a program of growth. If being a MBC is the only way a SM can fill a void for a scouts growth, then I think it is within their duties. Barry

I agree with all that has been said. I would also find a local packpacking expert learn how to lighten up your packs. Your food, crew gear, and water will add between 15 and 20lbs per person when you start on the trail, so I would try to set a max pack weight goal of 30lbs before you leave for camp. Some of us got it down to 25 lbs and a couple scouts even less. When your crew is waiting to load the bus to your trail head, you can watch all the crews weigh their packs. There was one young crew where nobodies pack weighed less than 55 lbs. I have to this day wondered how the they made out. Some of those boys weighed only a 130lbs. So get sharp and learn about your gear. Learn just what you have to have to enjoy the trek. An don't worry about it too much, we sent two dads (both in their late 50s) who had never camped in their life. Their sons' patrol was our very experience crew who were going on their 3rd or 4th Philmont trek, so we didn't feel they needed adults, but sent their dads to cover the requirment. The boys took veyr good care of their dads. And their dads have memories of a liftetime. Barry

We adults have to grow faster than the boys so as not to become a barrier to their growth. I found the skills and lessons I learned from the adversity of working with one struggling scout would get used again for several other scouts. Be sure and hand down those skills and lessons to new scouters. Barry

Seems you have a lot of anger there stosh. Someone sure stepped hard on your toes. Barry

For a person who doesn't put much stock in Eagles or military hierarchy, you sure have high expectation in their hierarchy of rank in the BSA. I know the answers to all your questions because I have observed all those situations. If you want any credence to your skepticism, then stop referring to Eagles by some systematic hierarchy of expectations. In the world you describe stosh, the Eagle isn't the problem, the Tenderfoot is. If the Eagle is truly the last of the scouting experience as you keep hinting, then the only way to raise the bar of the Eagle in your program would be to raise the bar of every rank before it. Not a bad idea really, but the Eagle isn't the highest or end-all to a boys scouting experience. It is just one step of many. The problem with the BSA and adults is they focus on the method of advancement instead of the quality of experience of the scouts growth using all the methods. Sadly, we adults look for easy measuring sticks to view progress. Rank is the easiest of the methods, so we put a lot of focus on the method. But remember I said in another thread that the methods are the scouts responsibility, not the adults. Imagine if we put the same focus on each scouts growth in character, fitness and citizenship. Then the Eagle would be a by-product of the growth, not the goal. I know this because I've watched it work. So how do we get away from the Eagle focus? Focus on a scouts growth of associating with others in all his scouting activities. Bring to focus the traits of character. Don't make the Eagle the end result of those traits, but just one step in the growth. A lot of folks are stuck on 14 year old Eagles, but what about a 14 years olds ability to contribute in the patrol method. How does the maturity of a 14 year old boy compare to a 17 year old? Don't worry about any scouts progress toward a rank, watch his growth of personal skills that we want of a mature father, husband and civic leader. Measure his growth of character and mental fitness. Do that and the Eagle AWARD, not rank, will be a natural acknowledgment of his growth as a man. Strangely I saw this very thing last week while on vacation with my wife. We ran into a couple from the east coast and the husband told me a story about himself without even knowing my scouting background. He said he regretted never having kids because he wanted to get involved in Boy Scouts to give back what scouting gave to him. He said that scouting gave him the confidience to be independent. That was it, but isn't "confidence to be independent" really what it is all about. Can't we as adult leaders of a Troop just set "confidence to be independent" as our goal. Can't the step of growth of mastering all the skills required to survive in the woods for a weekend be a successful step of growth toward that goal? Can't leading a five mile hike be worth the acknowledgement of a great day? If you really want the Eagle to be worth something, then quit thinking of it a the final step in a series of recognized statures. For each boy, the Eagle is something different. If they reach their vision of the Eagle, isn't that enough? The reason we have a debate is because we have our own personal vision of what an Eagle should be and want each other to accept that ideal. Instead, try to find what the scout thinks the Eagle should be and then let him go. In the mean time focus on his growth of using the scout oath and law in all his activities. Then you can not only feel confident that he will be recognized for his hard work to getting the Eagle Award, you will also have confidence that he has done the best he can in maturing toward character, fitness and self-servanthood. And then whether the scout leads new scouts or decides to be a JASM, you know that is only his next step toward confidence of independence. It isn't his final step of growth. I can assure you that once you serve the scouts in that way, your biggest challenge is keeping each scout's maturity challenged because they grow a lot faster than we can keep up. Quite Frankly, some scouts will grow to have better qualities than their scoutmaster. That is a very humbling place for many reasons. Barry

The BSA teaches reflection, or was teaching it. Have they changed reflection to AAR in the last couple years, or is it just Army lingo some folks like to use?

Hmm, where did you say in your post the scouts and adults negotiated when the adults would take over? It is a lot easier to simply not make up new rules and instead learn to work together. Over the years I learned young scouts tire quickly of personal responsibility and have to develop into it. It is hard on 14 year old SPLs too. It's new for them and it requires a lot of effort. That is why I advice new troops with young scouts start with two or three month leadership periods instead of six. I know you like scouts to switch off when the feel like it, but I teach the BSA recommended policies because that is what most troops use. What is AAR? Barry

Well I’m not sure what you are trying to say because it kind of sounds like the adults made up the rules for when they can turn off boy run and tell the scouts what to do. All troops do it to some degree, but you can understand why one adult’s boy run on this forum can be another adult’s not so boy run. That is why it is important to use the BSA structure for the program. A troop that uses the Methods to define the scouts roles and the Aims to define the adults role makes it easier for each group to hold each other accountable and explain the program to outsiders. A visiting Webelos parent may ask how the SM gets the boys to earn their eagle. The SM responds by explaining the roles of the adults and the scouts while showing them the Aims and Methods in the SM Handbook. Then the SM master finishes by saying, “that is why the Scout is responsible for earn the Eagle, not the SM or anyone elseâ€Â. And it is not a mystery, anyone can look up these things on the internet. The SM isn't working in a vacuum, they are following a published format. And that doesn't mean the SM has to use the SPL, there is room for some personal perspective as well. Still, the farther a program wanders from the basic structure, the more dangerous it becomes for the boys. Of course it’s not always clear cut either, how can a SM influence a scout to think about living the scout law without intimidating the scout to live the scout law just to keep the adults off their back. We adults need to develop the skill of explaining the virtues of the Eight Methods so that we can justify why they are important for a positive scouting experience. How many here can explain the virtues of the uniform so that a scout believes it will enhance his personal scouting experience and character. That is mentoring and it is a skill that takes lots of practice. But, the more the adults can support their program with BSA documentation that defines the responsibilities of everyone, the better the program can maintain integrity with accountability from the outside. I think even the SPL Handbook explains Aims and Methods. Every time and issue comes up where the adult feels the need to intrude on the scout side of the program, have the SM sit down with the SPL and open the handbook to discuss together where to go. In that way the scout and scouters become equal partners in coming up with solutions. That is all boys of all ages want, to be an equal with the adult leaders in working the program. I do agree that your scouts failed to follow their agenda. I love to use time to hold scouts accountable because they can’t blame anyone but themselves. Your scouts hopefully learned something from their choices. Barry

I agree that this is better handled at the Patrol level, mainly because it keeps the Patrol activities at the Patrol level. But this is one area where someone, usually an adult, also has to keep track of the adults at the troop level to make sure the tour permit is filled correctly (PLC responsibility in our troop) and know who will be staying overnight in the adult camp site. We found an ASM working with the PLs or SPL does very well. Our ASM tries to communicate with the PLs at the meeting before the campout to develop the adult list. It's not a big deal with a small troop, but making sure transportation for big troop as well as adult accommodations requires some coordination between the adults and scouts. Scouts can do 90% of the work, but don’t forget the other 10%. Barry

I Don't have one around to look at, but I believe the BSA SPL Handbook provides a meeting structure for the scouts to use. Something like, reading of minutes, old business, new business. Barry