Eagledad

So your answer is boys will choose sports and video games even when scouting is more fun. Hmm, My observation is boys' do fun in the order of the most fun first to the least fun last. Barry

I'm curious, do you think a boy would choose scouting if it were more fun than sports and video games? Barry

The number of Service projects is really up to the unit and depends on their philosphy for their vision. Many units do service projects to help scouts meet advancement goals. Others do them to teach scouting values. Probably a good question to ask the SPL for new families visiting troops depending on the scout's personal goals. Barry

For both the boys and adults, if someone wants to raise a discussion or new topic, they have to call the SPL/CC to get on the agenda. The SPL/CC will put the topic in the appropiate place on the agenda. The SPL/CC need to be forceful enough to stop a discussion that is not on the agenda and move it to new business or ask to bring it up again the next meeting. It only takes a couple meetings for everyone to learn this structure and the meeting move a long a lot faster. Barry

Sorry, but I didn't want to hijack the coke thread anymore. But but you said earlier "A bit more mentoring and a lot less rules goes a long way in building real leadership among the boys". Mentoring by whom? While your statement alone is worth teaching, it is still out of context with your "no adults" restriction. No matter how you idealize youth theory, there is no getting around the Troop being an Adult program with a SM directing it. If you want to get into details, I think you will find the hypocracy of your theory because their has to be an adult somewhere in there for boys to grow, even if it is just MENTORING. But you have to remember that with experienced scouters who have been there and done that, one SM's so called mentoring is another SM's dictatorship. Your whole post is based on imaginary straw men presumptions. As I said, you just don't respect the skills required to develop an eight patrol boy run troop. I'm guessing that since you can't see yourself creative enough to do it, you just can' t fathom anyone else doing it. Even worse, you can't believe a different style to boy run could achieve the same or better performance. And that is too bad because your gold nuggets of wisdom are lost in the fog of your bias. Few people will ever attempt a troop like yours because the details required get lost in the theory. It's too hard for the average new adult leader without an instruction book. But some of the ideals you use to structure the growth, like Servant leadership, are the little gems that help give struggling leaders of any troop program a small building block toward building a noble program of developing moral decision makers. I hope one day you can understand that. Barry

I admit that I struggle with the general presumption that All SPLs are beholden to Scoutmasters and those programs are automatically dictatorial one man shows. There may be some troops like that, but it is far from the norm. And I don't care what kind of troop there is, even the scoutmasters of two scout troops should be the visionary directors of the program. It's naive at best to suggest that multiple layers of responsibility automatically requires a SM to be a dictator. That just shows a lack of creativity, But respect also behooves walking a mile in the other mans shoes. At the very least, humility demands assuming other units of all shapes and sizes that we haven't personally observed to be equal or better performing than ours. Most folks have no idea of the rare skills required to guide a larger boy run troop of several patrols who perform equally or better than a boy run troop of single patrol. Generalized degrading simplifications are either a show of ignorance or arrogance. Barry

You are much kinder TT in your reply. I have much to learn. Is it really so hard to present ideas without tearing the other guy down? Sorry for the hijack. Barry

Our thinking is that it’s the PLs responsibility for the health of the scouts, so as long as they can prove they are providing nutritious meals, they are good to go. SOOO, when the soda question came, we let the PLs decide and watched. Sure as the world the scouts drank too much and left cans all over the place. I asked the SPL how the liter and scouts hyped up on caffeine fit within the PLs health responsibilities. He took the issue to the Patrol leaders and they change the policy to two liter bottles per campout. Pretty reasonable response I thought. The liter bottles fixed both problems because the scouts just didn’t like messing with that size of drinks. The sodas faded away after three months without anyone saying a word. I also think the coke fad in our troop was just an expression of freedom. Our troop is a backpacking troop, so after the fun wore off, the work of carrying around liter size bottles, a cooler and ice just for the sodas motivated the scouts to choose the easier path of not hassling with it. One law of boy humanism I can always count on is that they will always take the path of least resistance. Adults tend to look at these things in a purist perspective, cokes and boy scout camping don’t mix. Same with Gameboys, cell phones and stuff like that. But there is really nothing wrong with cokes, or candy, or chips or other junk foods in responsible doses. So I don’t want the adults coming down as tyrants because of our old fashion ideas, I want them to serve each other by acting responsibly and health is part of being responsible. But like anything, humans have to push over the line to find the line. The scouts pushed too far then pulled back. I was proud of them and the coke issue solved itself. The challenge of these things is not trying to find a way to stop the scouts, but to be creative enough to use the opportunity for growth. However, it requires so much patience. So much patience! Barry

I used to have a copy, but that was 5 computers ago, I will look for it tomorrow. However, search for an old Brownsea or JLTC course syllabus, I think you will like those better. We designed a back packing course from one of those courses. I can't remember, which, but it doesn't matter. What are you thinking because those are leadership courses, it assumes the participants knows outdoor skills. You know what might be a better syllabus is the old Scoutmaster Basic course. That course is more skills oriented that included back packing. How many days and scouts? Barry

You didn't ask a question in your first post, you implied that you doubted the validity of the statement. Now you asking the question but I don't think you really want the answer because your somehow trying to justify your doubt by mentioning the FAA, 4H, NOLS, TL. How do those programs prevent the a scout from having a life changing experience? What does losing membership have to do with a life changing experience. I think you are bashing the BSA and just afraid to admit it. You must not have had a good experience because a scout is brave. Barry

Well of course that is a personal opinion, I have lots of life changing stories that scouts and their parents have passed on to me long after they were in the program. Could those scouts have had the same life changing experience with another organization? Who knows, maybe. But they had the experience in scouting, so I agree with the Deron that the BSA does offer life changing experiences.

Our Scouts like JLT type courses because they are a little different than the normal monthly camp outs. We keep them fun and pass along only the information they need to improve their skills. That's why we went away from duplicating a normal type camp out atmosphere. We aren't trying to teach the scout skills or camping skills they should already know, we are showing different styles of leadership or program management skills that will make their efforts easier. So we make the courses fun and special. Even at the council level we called the course a conference and treated the scouts as professionals coming to a conference to learn new skills. The scouts were totally responsible for their life outside of the conference, and really that was where the real lessons were learned. LOL Our PLC does 30 minute PLC meeting before each troop meeting every week instead one long monthly meeting on a weekend. We usually bring pizza so they don't have to worry about dinner. But even on camp outs I brought treats like cokes and candy, nuts, for the PLC meetings. They work hard, so my way of showing them respect is treating them special. But they do work hard, so they earn it. I think it's important to get your first Troop JLT (ISLT) out of the way so you can learn what works and what doesn't to improve the next one. Work to hand over the total training to the older scouts. Guide the SPL and older scouts to evaluate where the youth leadership are lacking and build your course around improving those skills. After a while, the older scouts get pretty good at it and like it. But remember, even at the Council level, leadership development courses only polish rough edges, they don't change the direction of the program. You need adults to change for that to happen. Barry

>>Our membership decline stems from our organization's seeming predisposition to try and dictate morality to folks.<< The BSA has a lot of internal program issues causing a lot of angst for adults. While a poll shows dropping support, there nothing out there to suggest the resistance to political correctness is the cause. I know the folks I talked to are less concerned on the moral issues and more concerned with being in a program that activist keep attacking. Families just don't want to be part of a cause. But there is just simply no numbers to show this. In fact I have been reading folks on this forum making these same predictions for 15 years. I could easily show where the numbers were falling during those years and it had nothing to do with progressives activist attacking the program. Still, I am concerned membership policy change the BSA just made may have very well hurt the program, but the only numbers that would really show that is the new scout numbers, and I expect that will take a couple years to understand. As I said, the BSA has internal program problems that need to be fixed first to stop the membership decline caused by those problems. I understand National is coming out with some pretty big changes this year. We will see, I remember holding my breath for changes with the Tiger program in 2000. Turns out the changes made the problems worse, not better. So I’m always skeptical that National understands the real causes to the problems they try to fix. Barry

I don't know, it's kind of hard to tell. I know folks today complain they aren't getting enough of outdoors training, but I'm not sure that the lack of training with the training changes that took place in 2000. The old course was not designed to train scout skills either. It was designed to give experienced Scoutmasters more instruction techniques and leadership skills. The skills sessions of the old course were intended to show different style of teaching, the students were supposed to already know the skills being taught. But the problem with the old course is the same problem I can see with the present course, the staffs don’t understand the overall objecitve. I remember listening to the Council WB Course Chairman of the old course complaining that his staffs were focusing too much on teaching scouts skills and not enough of teaching and leadership styles. That was around 1995 and by that time the courses were staffed by a lot of women who empathized with the participants and wanted them to get the training they wanted when they took the course. The result was a lot of troop committees were molding their troop programs identical to their WB course experience. That makes the troop less boy run, not more, so National wisely scraped the course. However, I guess the present course is suffering from the same problem. The staffs are still trying to use the course to teach scout skills and leadership when the intention is adult team building and program management. So that in a way does show the need for more outdoor skills training somewhere. The problem is we can’t keep sending adults through two weeks’ worth of course so they feel comfortable in their skills. That creates a recruiting and burnout problem. Not everyone is that passionate with scouting. Barry

I have designed several of these courses including a boy run version of the JLTC course before NYLT was introduced. First of all I am excited you are attempting this because you are stepping out of the box to improve your program. That is what you have to do to improve a program. It will be fun to watch your ideas go into action. After reading your original post, my first to thoughts were that you are missing two key things to have a successful course: First, you don’t seem to really know what you are looking for. Yes, your patrol leaders aren’t really leading, but why? As your scouts go through your course, how will you know success from failure, or growth from no change? The risk here is when the scouts do something that is good for growth, but makes the adults uncomfortable, they will be tempted to step in and stop the scouts and prevent any gains. I had a lot of resistance with our council JLTC course because scoutmasters who weren’t use to scouts making mistakes from their independent decisions wanted to step in and change the direction of the scout’s decisions. If I didn’t understand that learning comes from evaluation ones own decisions, there course wouldn’t have done anything. Get an idea of basic ideals you want to accomplish from the course. Give yourself something to measure so that you can defend or redirect to improve performance at the next course. Remember that the Vision for the BSA is to build men who make decisions based from the scout law and oath. The key words are make decisions. However, boys don’t join scouts to become decision makers, they join for adventure. There are lot of words that can define adventure, but after many years of doing this scouting stuff, I think adventure is “challengeâ€Â. Boys like games because they like to challenge what they know, they like to hike because they like the physical challenge and they like competition because they like the challenge of bettering the other guy. Make your course FUN and Challenging. Make the syllabus so that when the scout finishes and is going home, they like themselves for what they accomplished and what they mastered. They need a reason to feel good about themselves, help them get that reason through their actions, not your words. Second, you don’t seem to really have an idea of the structure of the course. That’s OK because many of us started that way and learned. Like Twocubdad, I look at what the troop is lacking in skills and develop the syllabus around improving those skills. I have to laugh that we also had a class of how to sign off scout advancement in scout books. Common problem I guess. The trick is keeping each class interesting. There are a thousand ways of doing your course and making it a lot of fun. We used several examples of syllabuses over the years and then modified them to apply more to our needs. The way I started our JLTC boy run course was as soon as all 32 scouts were assembled in a room together with all their gear, the SPL told them to make four patrols, elect a patrol leader and have the patrol leader assign each scout responsibility. That took about 45 mintues. Then they make a copy of their patrol roster and take it to the troop quartermaster for him to type up a troop roster. Once each patrol turned in their roster, the PL’s immediately had a PLC meeting to create a course agenda for the whole week. Yep, these just newly elected PLs who never met each other until an hour ago were creating an agenda for a five day Council JLTC course. There only requirement was to include 16 classes and four troop meetings or campfires, nothing else. They didn’t even have to include meals if they didn’t want to. They could have eight hours of free time a day if that was they wanted just so long as they included 16 hours of classes and four troop meetings were scheduled to be completed by lunch of the fifth day. We were also at our local camp, so they had access to most of the camp equipment and facilities. The patrols had to elect a new patrol leader twice a day followed with a PLC and trust me that the agenda changed from the lessons learned from the previous PLC. Believe it or not, scouts found out that six hours of free time isn’t that much fun when they don’t have any time to sleep OR EAT. LOL! Here is a cue; “time†is the best teacher of management discipline. By the end of the week, I think the scouts were surprised how the syllabus ended up looking basically the same as agendas they saw in their own troops. If I could design a course like that for 32 scouts who came from all over the council, think what you could do with your troop. Our older scouts in our troop once planned and ran a campout where the patrols had to get up and move their campsite. Our troop of 80 scouts is a backpacking troop, so it wasn’t as challenging as it owuld be for plop camping troops, but it was is still a big change in our scouts state of mind. Imagine telling the patrol that they are in a possible fire danger area and have to move to a new location a mile or two away given only by compass coordinates. That kind of unexpected scenario forces out leaders, followers and group control. At first the challenge looks daunting and over bearing, but as the patrol settles down to get the job done, there comes a lot of satisfaction from mastering the challenge. “It was actually a lot of funâ€Â, you hear at the next troop meeting. You can set your three patrols all over camp to where they never see each other but can still be monitored by you and the SPL. You can also set up 30 minute classes or sill sessions along the route so that the scouts get a break and learn a needed skill as well. By the end of our Council JLTC course, all the scouts had written at least a dozen agendas course and activity agendas because each scout was required to write one at least two times a day to redesign the course schedule or for the troop meetings and campfires. The PLC voted on the best and that was the agenda the patrols followed. I say this because 80 percent of troops in the BSA don’t use agendas for some reason of another. Its a pet peeve of mine, but I scratch my head wondering how scouts can run campouts and troop meetings without an agenda? I don' t think they can and that is another reason why patrols aren't as independent as they should be. Remember how six hours of free time turned out not to be much fun? So sit down and write out some clear goals you want the see the scouts gain from your course so that you know where you are going, and so that you can teach and defend the course from skeptical on-lookers. And then be creative and make this a “fun†adventurous course that challenges the scouts. The Green Bar Bill stuff is pretty good. Over the years I started requiring adults attend a few hours of class on the last day of the course to explain boy run, patrol method, Aims, methods and specifically how the course worked to get their scouts to change their thinking about how patrol method works. I concluded scouts don’t really need a week long JLTC course or weekend troop JLT courses because they are really just following a plan laid out by the adults. The adults are the ones who need these courses so they can get a feel for how patrol method really works. Learn why lectures are boring how hiking, boating, biking are better teachers of patrol method. So what I am saying is that just don’t do your course and then go back to things as they were, sit down with the scout and adults together and come up with a few things to change. Call them ticket items if you want, but make sure your program has some reflection of the growth gained from the course. Also, don’t pay too much attention to the nay Sayers here that are telling you to blow up your troop of 80 scouts and start over. Their idealism sounds noble in theory, but rarely does theory reflect reality accept in their own case. 80 scouts requires different ideas. While all of us have some wisdom to pass along, we gain that wisdom under different conditions, so it can’t all be applied. Think of us as a cafeteria of ideas and you get to choose which works best for your particular situation. You are not trying to rewrite your program, you are just smoothing out a few rough edges here and there. If done right, your scouts will go back to their patrols with all kinds of new ideas, and the adults will find themselves having to hustle just to keep up. That is scouting at its best. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I'm trying figure out how the den of wolves lead themselves while adults mentor and resource.

I’m not defending the program TAHAWK, but I do find myself correcting misconceptions. The current program is purposely amiable for inexperienced scouters because it is designed more to develop team management skills. The idea is that if the adults can first manage a stable program, learning to work with scouts will come easier. As someone who has some experience helping broken units become functional, I agree with that theory. In fact that is exactly how I worked with the adults even before the new WB was introduced. The main problem I see with the new WB program is that many staffs confused the course objective of team management development with leadership development. It’s a huge difference and causes a lot of disappointment with both the staff and participants because they have wrong expectations for the course objective, which results in being disappointed. Barry

Done correctly, troop level responsibility provides additional decision making growth that patrol leaders rarely experience even in the best boy-led programs. It’s not a replacement for the patrol leader experience, its opportunity for continued growth. However, there is a risk of corrupting the growth of the patrol level experience if the troop responsibility isn’t guided correctly. But for those of us who have experience the rewards, it’s worth learning how to provide that style of program. Barry

We have the same experience mozortbrau, I concluded over the years that it is a maturity thing. We have the same experiences with Troop Guides when we use them. We have never had a good TG who was 14 or younger, and never had one less than great who was 16 or older. I think watching older scouts in action is the reward for the hard work of building a program where older scouts like to come. Barry

This is interesting: http://washington.cbslocal.com/2014/04/16/psychologist-social-media-causing-a-distancing-phenomena-to-take-place/ >> Batcho explained that what a person does in cyberspace is quite different than what someone can do face-to-face in an actual conversation. “Cyber-bullying is a great example of how social media communication differs from face-to-face,†Batcho, who has been a licensed psychologist in New York state for over 30 years, stated. “Studies suggest that it takes place in a more extreme way over social media because the authors feel no responsibility.†Hmm

This happens a lot, although I've not seen it for a whole summer. I don't think there is anything you have to do because the scout is already registered with the BSA, but call council to make sure. Barry