Eagledad

This reminds me of a back packing trip we did in New Mexico; we decided to go to the Santa Fe Arts Festival the day before we got on the trail and as we were driving in the parking lot, the Scouts saw several young ladies about their age. So they decided to remove their scout shirts while we adults left ours on. The scouts took off on their own, but they were close enough in the crowd to watch venders giving free food to those of us in uniform. We laughed later joking with the boys that they didn't even get the girl. Barry

TB, you ran into the interpretation differences with the "training" part of "Train-them, Trust-them and let-them-go". There are certainly a lot of different opinions with the group here. I'm not sure you can find the right answer on this forum because the "trust" part with the adults changes with experience. Many here feel a parent asking a lot of questions about a troop program edges into helicpoter parenting, others think it's just responsible parenting. It's important to understand that the BSA looses more boys from the program at this time of scouting than any other age group because boys coming from the Cub ages have very little experience with independence and suddenly find themselves drowning with independence in the troop program. It is terrifying for them to say the least. There is a line between building confidence to step forward into the unknown, and fear of the unknown. Training is that difference. I think the troop you visited hasn't yet matured to understanding the difference. You as a responsible parent that needs to feel comfortable about the choice of troop you pick. Ask a few questions. What is your ultimate goal for my son? Is this troop boy run and what does that mean? Do you have a new scout program? Personally, I think the overall quality of a troop is reflective in the quality of the older scouts program. So ask about the older scout program. How many scouts 14 and older. And ask to observe the older scouts in action. They should be leading the younger ones. However, like humans, each troop has it's own unique personality. You need to learn enough to understand the personality. Visit the good troops at least twice in different scenarios like camping and meetings. Maybe even three times. Always talk to the SPL and ask him what he thinks will happen to your son if he joins. Aways an interesting discussion. I wish you luck, we were so frustrated by our choices that we started our own troop. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I also wouldn't do it any other way if I had the choice to do it over again. Scouitng is hard, but it is very rewarding. Barry

“Here's my question...I have had two parents ask me why he is getting credit for all the activities when it is obvious he does not listen or participate. I cant say I disagree with them.†I can’t really advice to the question because your pack has a policy that answers the it for the other parents. However, I think you seek the wisdom from those of us who didn’t have that policy, and I understand. Working with mentally challenged scouts is always challenging because each one of them is different. A lot different. The Do Your Best approach is the best and really most compassionate approach to holding these scouts accountable. But that still isn’t the easy answer. We found that we had to get these boys parents closely involved so they could advise and direct us in how to work with their son. And when the parents didn’t get involved for whatever reason, then I still called a meeting to just explain my thinking of how I would counsel with their son. And they usually were very accepting. A lot of times, the parents don’t know how to deal with some of their sons behavior, so it can be new territory for all. I’ve been retired as a SM long enough now that most of those boys are young adults and I can certainly say that the ones I spoken with did have a positive scouting experience. If you approach these young men with an open and compassionate heart, usually good things will happen. Working with these scouts is hard, tiring, and challenge to the patience. But rewarding in the end. I have a lot of good success stories with our mentally and physically challenged scouts, but I have a different story with our 17 year old life scout who was on his way to Eagle. His parents were very supportive and active with our troop. In fact, dad is an Eagle and Silver Beaver. But the scout had one incident where he pulled a knife on another scout. At the end of a series of conferences and counseling sessions with the scout and his dad observing, the scout finally told his dad and I that he didn’t feel that pulling the knife was unscout like behavior. I remember his dad turning to me with a tear in his eye and telling me that he was going home to tell mom that their son was not going to be an Eagle. As I read these posts and reflect back on my experiences with all our challenging scouts, I realize as the emotion of those moments faded and given me a clearer understanding of the pain and suffering of the parents. The folks here have some good advice of how to work with these young men, but I’ll also add that as you work with their son, the parents have a desperate hope from you. And while I feel that hope is unfairly placed, doing your best can is the noble cause God has placed in your hands. I couldn’t have said it ten years ago because they were still boys, but after meeting these young men now as adults living adult lives, I think we did OK. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I can't think of any reason why these scouts can't do the task without an adult.

So why when did the scout start missing meetings. Why?

I enjoyed reading Turtle's post on the BSA over-emphasizing the leadership part of the program. I agree that is a problem, but I don't agree the the BSA is the source of over-emphasizing. It's the unit adults that struggle with the leadership method. And personally I don't care about the difference between leadership and management. We are really talking about responsibility in the bigger picture, aren't we? I find that idividual personality will lead a scout to a style of manager or leader. However, the reason unit leaders struggle with the leadership Method is the same reason they struggle with the Advancement Method, they are looking at the wrong goals of growth. The goal is Character Growth, not leadership growth, or advancement growth, or camping growth and so on. Oh of course we want the scout to become a better leader because that is a great life skill and frankly easy to measure. But if a scout finds that he is not capable of living up to expectations and decides to step down to help his team perform better; is that not character growth? When adults shift the focus to the higher mission of character growth, they usually find themselves changing the way they guide and judge each scout's performance of the "methods". Then as Turtleman said, we appreciate each scout better for their differences of performing and customize the expectations on each method. It's more challenging for the adults, but much more rewarding. Barry

That might explain why our experience is different in our council, our average classes are 50/50 (give or take) cubs and troop leaders. It keeps the average age about the same as the units. Barry

I agree with everyting you say in the contrext you give, but where we difference is you keep putting responsibility of accountibility on the scout, not the SM. It doesn't matter if the scout performed for one POR or a dozen PORs, it's up to the SM to set the standard of accountibility and measure the scouts performance. If a scout says I was a PL for six months and nothing else, the BOR will straighten out the SM to help coach the scout explain himself better, or suggest the SM step it up on guideing scouts during their 6 months stint, not just at the end. If the scout didn't live up to expectation, that is a SM problem. And as I explained in TTs post, a SM Conference is a little late to hold the scout accountible to bad performance because he may have felt he did well. The SM sets the standards of accountibility for the program. Now the BOR should have some say in that, but the SM directs the factors of performance for the whole program. I do agree with you that scout should learn the skill of explaining themselves well to those who are responsible of holding them accoutable like the SM or BOR. I like that. Barry

Stosh, you say tomatoes, I say tomatoes. The 6th month term doesn’t encourage abuse any more than letting scouts adding up 6 months worth of multiple POR time because the human SM is still judging if the scout performed six months’ worth of responsibility. I know this because we also allow scouts to add up all their POR time. You like your style of Scoutmastering better, so you think it encourages better boy performance. And maybe it does in some aspects, who knows. But in the big picture, it is still up to the adult to judge the scout’s performance. I’ve seen and experienced enough program styles to understand that one program style does not insure better leadership performance than another. It’s up to the adult and their style of program and observation. I had the same argument with Kudu years ago. I can assure you that our elected scouts work their tails off for 6 months. The question asked wasn’t how should the OP overhaul the troop program to make the scouts work better, he asked how to measure and encourage better performance. The answers to that question will work with just about any program style. Barry

Uh oh! This is timely. http://washingtonexaminer.com/irs-lo...rticle/2538263

You guys are so funny. Google "resignation of acting IRS commissioner".

Interesing comments. I curious, how you all feel about the IRS being used to target certian groups and individuals that don't agree with the politics of power? You know what I mean.

Well we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Most parents that want to see a program in action for the purpose of picking a troop are not helicopter parents, nomatter how the program is presented. I would have concern of a troop where I as a parent were not allowed to see the program in action. It's also my personal opinion that troops shouldn't plan a campout specifically for webelos because they should observe a typical monthly program, but that is just me. Barry

>>The point of demarkation IMHO is that once you pin on that 1st class rank, you are considered a de facto troop trainer for anyone of lesser rank than you. If you are 1st class, you not only know how / what to do for yourself, but you know the material well enough to TRAIN YOUNGER SCOUTS

A true boy run program is challenging to adults for two reasons; one is each scout requires individual one on one guidance (“Bob, I noticed you choose not to wear your uniform today, is everything all rightâ€Â) compared to (“Everyone is required to wear full uniform or they don’t go campingâ€Â). Second is boy run requires space between the adults and scouts (300 ft) to give the scout true independence of making decisions without intimidation. For a scout to understand the responsibility of making good choices, he HAS to feel the true impact of his decisions on those around him, and he needs to be challenged on those decisions at the time, not six months later. That is a hard responsibility for adults who are 300 ft away. It can be done and adults don’t have to stand in the patrol campsite to see if the patrols members are starving to death because they can’t get together on menus and cooking. We need to be responsive in a timely manner. It’s not real productive to hold a scout accountable six months after the act because it is difficult for him to feel the impact of his decision. Instead he will likely feel resentment for being held accountilbe for something he barely remembers. You don't punish a dog for something it did wrong last week. That’s not to say the scout won’t understand and make some choices that make you proud, but it still makes our job much much harder. Also, the program itself needs to show the scout the the result of his right and wrong choices. Are scouts hungry? Is their camp site trashy and dishes not getting cleaned? Is the patrol late to assembly? How does the troop suffer when the SPL isn’t there? How does the patrol function without the PL? The answer is they shouldn’t perform well if you want them to feel responsible for the expectations. A patrol is a team and members of the team need to be stressed to build into a true functioning team. If one member of the team is slouching, he needs to be held accountable by the other members. The team building model of forming, storming, norming and performing works very well when used properly. I remember when our troop was about 50 scouts and in about a years time they had improved breaking camp from two hours to 35 minutes. That is pretty darn good and I remember the ASM next to me saying, “Wow, we need to find a wrench to throw in that machine â€Â. As adults, you can use the program to stress the scouts and force them to see how their choices affect the team. And then you can guide them one on one if they still don’t see the light. Campsite inspections are a great way to force teams to storm and norm. Agendas are another. But the main point here is you don’t want a scout getting away with making bad decisions for six months before being confronted. Barry

Meanwhile back at the ranch. Is the scout performing to his promises of performance. Your job is to guide scout to make right decisions. You can keep adding policies and rules to force the scout against his will, or you can appeal to him by asking him to be honest with his performance. You are too focused on him performing to your expectations. Instead you could guide him on making correct decisions, one of which may be handing his responsibilities over to someone else until he has the time to live up to the to the expectations the other scouts expect of him. Leadership is only a tool for help you build character. The values of law are serving others before yourself, and helping this scout to make choices that benefit the troop instead himself is your noble task at hand. I handle these kinds of situations by speaking with scout one on one and asking him to reflect on his performance. Sometimes I was the one who grew from the experience, but careful questions can get him to see himself more clear. He may need to set new goals. He may need to understand is options better. But your main objective is for him to want to make good decisions. Does this make sense? What I'm trying to say is focus on the higher goal of character, not leadership performance. Once he understands the life value of making good decisions, good leadership will follow. Good luck, this is challenging for all of us. Barry

Parents dont understand boy led until they see it, feel it, and taste it. We never plan a campout around visiting Webelos. we have our agenda and if they come, they get pulled in to the program. Our visitors have experienced shooting sports, biking, rappelling, canoeing and what ever was planned a year ago at annual planning. The adults don't plan in the visitors, the patrol leaders are responsible for getting the families to the camp and taking care of them including food. Sometimes it's a day visit, most of the time it's a whole weekend. But let me say, the families can't get a better experience of boy run than visiting our troop. And it's rare that those families don't join. Barry

I disagree with not wanting Webelos parents around for a visit, I wanted the parents to be just as impressed with our program as their sons. We had saying in our district, sell the kids, you have a 50 50 shot; sell the parents and you got a sure thing. That being said, I also would have been irritated. But then I remembered the parents are likely just trying to help out the troop by doing their reservations and not getting in the troops way. Tenting isn't everyones cup of tea (just ask my lovely wife), so the cabin idea is their easy solution. They just weren't thinking about logistics and troop schedule. Do the best you can with the situation Twocub and don't let it ruin today. Find a camp without cabins next year. Barry

Its not a lawyer thing, it's law passed on the pharmaceutical companies during the Clinton area. Surely you can remember how the democrats demonized the industry just like do big oil now. Barry

Interesting read here about a poll of doctors conducted by the New York State Medical Society reported by the New York Post. They don't like it. http://nypost.com/2013/10/29/docs-resisting-obamacare/

LOL, BP you're assumptions are always intertaining to say the least. You are right, WB21C does little in helping SM's create a fun, challgening, and exciting experience for boys. That is not its purpose. It is desgined as a team builder and guide to understanding BSA visions and goals. Don't make more of it than that. As for the explination of changes, I got that from folks at national. We also had one of the developers of the old course here in our council and he explained the original intent of that course. It wasn't for raming as many new troop leaders through as possible for the purpose of learning how to run a troop. That is not from me, but course developers. And while the BSA may be lacking a basics course, Wood Badge is not the place. The problem with your perspective BP is you think everyone is born with the skills to run a unit. They are not and the new WB does have a place to help the problem. I know this because the issues the old course caused are rarely an issue today. And you see it in the forums as well. No more complaints of units where the scouts are leaving because the adults force the scouts to look like troop 1 of WB. Personally I enjoyed the older course, it was a lot of fun and I made some new friends. But I gained nothing from it in terms of running our troop. Like Stosh, I mostlly learned from my ticket. Barry

The present course that was introduced in 2000 is not like the previous course started in the 60's that was designed for experienced scoutmasters. And think goodness. You all don't realize how much of a problem the old course was because the new course has been running pretty well for 13 years now. But the problem with a course that simulates a perfect troop is that the partticipants that have no other experience to base a troop program on would force their scouts to function exactly like the WB troop. It all started with the inclusion of women as leaders because up until that time, the majority of troop leaders had some scouting experience as a youth. For men and women who didn't have any scouting experience gave them the best picture of running a troop. But wasn't intended to be an end all top shelf troop model program, it was a simply the model used for the real purpose of teaching adults different teaching styles. Yep, WB was not intended to teach adults how to run a troop, it's intention was guiding scoutmasters new teaching styles. But that intention got lost after 1990 because many of the adults used the course as the ideal troop model and that cause a lot of problems with units struggling. If the scouts didn't respond like the participants in WB, they leaders didn't know what to do and generally overreacted. The new course is directed toward team buidling. Thats why Cub leaders are encouraged as well. I was our District person who worked with struggling adult committees and 9 times out of 10, the main problem was the unit didn't have a vision or a team concept. Each adults function on their own doing what they felt was important. I only had to show committees their vision and get them to understand each persons role on the team. It works very well and I think has benefited the program. I do however agree that the BSA needs to provide better access to outdoor skills. Almost 3/4 of adult joining troops today do not have any experience in scouting. And that has it's own problems. Barry

My Bad, I meant Tax refund. That includes everyone who files.

Here is something I just learned from my CPA, if you don't get a tax return from the IRS, you cannot be penalized for not having health insurance. This is a train wreck that is going to happen and I'm really curious how DC will frame it so that folks like Moose will defend it on forums. I'm not being disrespectful, pragmatically the facts are hard to dispute and my kids will suffer from it all. Barry

I have had tremendously good luck with targeting and personally asking individuals to volunteer in just about every scouting position from the District Committee to Tiger parent. I have also personally recruited voluntieers for many planning and organizing committees from Council to Cubs. People are reluctant to give up their time when they don't know the job, so I typically ask them for only a little time by taking on a coleader or assistant role, of any position. Then as they get experience and learn the system better, I ask them to take on a more responsible position. Also, while folks are protective and cautious with their personal time, they are also flattered when you specifically pick them for the job. The key is to not ask for too much all at once. Get them on the team first so they invest some time and interest in the program. Then you push them up the tree. Who knows, you may be recruiting a future Silver Beaver. I have. Barry