Eagledad

It is believed that the BSA and GSUSA have had an unwritten agreement for many years to leave things as they are. Barry

I was talking to a friend some years ago who was telling me about a business conference he attended some years earlier. He said there were several hundred people in attendance with most of them talking while waiting for the first speaker. The first speaker approached the podium and was a bit perplexed to how he was going to get everyone’s attention. After a few moments of pause, he raised the scout sign. Immediately a few signs rose up with more and more gradually following eventually bringing the room to quiet calm. My friend said it was obvious the speaker’s sign was more reactionary than planned and he was as surprised by the immediate response as was the rest of the room. He said there were as many women in the room as men, but surprisingly to everyone, the speaker’s action worked. I agree with Stosh that the Scout Sign gets over used and abused, but we shouldn’t ignore the power that it provides as a tool. When the sign is raised, it simply says “Respect for the floor Pleaseâ€Â. The problem comes when it is used as a tool for punishment instead of calling for respect. I see it over and over, the person of authority holding the sign until well beyond the given respect until the blood has completely left everyone’s arms. At the point, the person holding the sign is really saying “When I say shut up, I mean SHUT UPâ€Â. I respect Stosh for teaching his scouts not to use the sign for the purpose of bringing respect to the floor, but using the sign for that purpose is universally accepted with all Boy Scouts in North America, maybe even universally. To say that it shouldn’t be learned and used for the purpose would be like saying we should never drink tap water. Instead what scouters should do is as stosh suggest, teach how to use the sign for the intended use of respect, not as a tool to punish. If a scout cannot bring respect to the floor within a reasonable time with the sign, there are bigger problems that need attention. And those bigger problems are typical with younger scouts. Like anything with ignorance, proper behavior has to be taught and developed. That is what scouting is all about. Teach the skills of the Oath and Law and how to apply them in all the scouts actions. This is a good subject in how to develop boys totally ignorant of a boy run structure. The question is a little difficult in that the OP suggest getting from A to Z in just a few weeks. I know that isn’t what was meant, but without experience, the OP didn’t know how to ask. The real objective for this age group isn’t teaching Patrol Leading, but self confidence and independence. And while the overall big goal is good, we have to remember that big goals generally require many small steps. As I said before, start with just a few activities and work from there. Don’t expect perfection, just a little growth. When the scouts seem to have the confidence of that independence, raise the bar a little and keep them challenged. Once they seem to get more confidence, add more structure. Anytime the scouts aren’t having fun, change the structure a little. It works well for the Webelos age group. Confidence and Independence is all boys need at this age and experience. With that, they will do fine in most any troop program. Barry

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No big thing really, you don't need to boy run the whole meeting, just opening and closing. Give them a short list of what needs to be said: Scouts attention! Color guard attention! Color guard present colors! CG PostColors! Scouts oath! Scout Law! Prayer! CG dismissed! .., then you take over the meeting. Don't correct anything at first, these are confidence building exercises. Let them use cheat sheets. Once they start to show some confidence, add a little more. They will catch on faster than you think. If they have never seen opening and closings, check out You Tube. Most are basically the same. But keep yours very basic. It will be fun. Barry

Hmm, I have not had those issues. Different styles I guess. Thanks. Barry

What issues have you had Stosh?

I eventually addressed all my SPLs as "Senior" for the same reason. In fact address all SPLs as Senior because they seem to like it. I guess it rings as much authority as Scoutmaster.

They invested a lot of time and energy reaching the bar of Eagle, they just want to finish the journey.

Well I don't have details of the trips of different troops because I had 17 Webelos that ended up scattered in troops all over the district. I was invited to their Eagle COHs where they showed off pictures of their scouting adventures. I was told by one SM that the scuba trip in Mexico through a local outfitter was cheaper than the trips to Boundary Waters. I guess its all in who you know. Barry

Thnking about this, I remember the 140, or so, scouts in the pack when I was asked to be CM didn't have a uniform policy. The way we tackled that problem was through the Webelos by encouraging them to wear full uniforms at all the activities. That wasn't hard to do either because we also give them the same camo booney hats the military soldiers wore. The hats were great because they were very durable for scouting activities, and they looked very cool compared to the BSA baseball caps. My 30 and 27 year old sons still have theirs and most of the scouts wore theirs through Boy Scouts as well. I remember looking at a lot of pictures of scouts at their Eagle COH wearing those booney hats everywhere from the Canadian Boundary Waters to scuba diving in Mexico. Somehow it became a Pack policy that only the Webelos had the honor of wearing the booney hat, so they wore their uniforms with a lot pride, and the younger ages couldn't wait to be Webelos. Because the Webelos looked cool, we never had problems with all the scouts dressing in uniform, even while traveling. Barry

Our scouts follow the scout Handbook on uniforming, but we do have a unit rule that scouts must wear the full uniform while traveling. We started doing this when we found that store clerks at the many gas stops and convienience stores we stop during our trips kind of panic when a couple dozen boys go running through the store. The uniform identifies them to the adults in uniform and surprisingly calms them. I remember a truck driver at one gas stop in Clayton New Mexico personally apologized to every scout because she was wearing a sexually derogatory t-shirt. She was ashamed and said she would never do that in public again. Folks respect the Boy Scout uniform more than we can understand I guess. Barry

This reminds me of a back packing trip we did in New Mexico; we decided to go to the Santa Fe Arts Festival the day before we got on the trail and as we were driving in the parking lot, the Scouts saw several young ladies about their age. So they decided to remove their scout shirts while we adults left ours on. The scouts took off on their own, but they were close enough in the crowd to watch venders giving free food to those of us in uniform. We laughed later joking with the boys that they didn't even get the girl. Barry

TB, you ran into the interpretation differences with the "training" part of "Train-them, Trust-them and let-them-go". There are certainly a lot of different opinions with the group here. I'm not sure you can find the right answer on this forum because the "trust" part with the adults changes with experience. Many here feel a parent asking a lot of questions about a troop program edges into helicpoter parenting, others think it's just responsible parenting. It's important to understand that the BSA looses more boys from the program at this time of scouting than any other age group because boys coming from the Cub ages have very little experience with independence and suddenly find themselves drowning with independence in the troop program. It is terrifying for them to say the least. There is a line between building confidence to step forward into the unknown, and fear of the unknown. Training is that difference. I think the troop you visited hasn't yet matured to understanding the difference. You as a responsible parent that needs to feel comfortable about the choice of troop you pick. Ask a few questions. What is your ultimate goal for my son? Is this troop boy run and what does that mean? Do you have a new scout program? Personally, I think the overall quality of a troop is reflective in the quality of the older scouts program. So ask about the older scout program. How many scouts 14 and older. And ask to observe the older scouts in action. They should be leading the younger ones. However, like humans, each troop has it's own unique personality. You need to learn enough to understand the personality. Visit the good troops at least twice in different scenarios like camping and meetings. Maybe even three times. Always talk to the SPL and ask him what he thinks will happen to your son if he joins. Aways an interesting discussion. I wish you luck, we were so frustrated by our choices that we started our own troop. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I also wouldn't do it any other way if I had the choice to do it over again. Scouitng is hard, but it is very rewarding. Barry

“Here's my question...I have had two parents ask me why he is getting credit for all the activities when it is obvious he does not listen or participate. I cant say I disagree with them.†I can’t really advice to the question because your pack has a policy that answers the it for the other parents. However, I think you seek the wisdom from those of us who didn’t have that policy, and I understand. Working with mentally challenged scouts is always challenging because each one of them is different. A lot different. The Do Your Best approach is the best and really most compassionate approach to holding these scouts accountable. But that still isn’t the easy answer. We found that we had to get these boys parents closely involved so they could advise and direct us in how to work with their son. And when the parents didn’t get involved for whatever reason, then I still called a meeting to just explain my thinking of how I would counsel with their son. And they usually were very accepting. A lot of times, the parents don’t know how to deal with some of their sons behavior, so it can be new territory for all. I’ve been retired as a SM long enough now that most of those boys are young adults and I can certainly say that the ones I spoken with did have a positive scouting experience. If you approach these young men with an open and compassionate heart, usually good things will happen. Working with these scouts is hard, tiring, and challenge to the patience. But rewarding in the end. I have a lot of good success stories with our mentally and physically challenged scouts, but I have a different story with our 17 year old life scout who was on his way to Eagle. His parents were very supportive and active with our troop. In fact, dad is an Eagle and Silver Beaver. But the scout had one incident where he pulled a knife on another scout. At the end of a series of conferences and counseling sessions with the scout and his dad observing, the scout finally told his dad and I that he didn’t feel that pulling the knife was unscout like behavior. I remember his dad turning to me with a tear in his eye and telling me that he was going home to tell mom that their son was not going to be an Eagle. As I read these posts and reflect back on my experiences with all our challenging scouts, I realize as the emotion of those moments faded and given me a clearer understanding of the pain and suffering of the parents. The folks here have some good advice of how to work with these young men, but I’ll also add that as you work with their son, the parents have a desperate hope from you. And while I feel that hope is unfairly placed, doing your best can is the noble cause God has placed in your hands. I couldn’t have said it ten years ago because they were still boys, but after meeting these young men now as adults living adult lives, I think we did OK. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I can't think of any reason why these scouts can't do the task without an adult.

So why when did the scout start missing meetings. Why?

I enjoyed reading Turtle's post on the BSA over-emphasizing the leadership part of the program. I agree that is a problem, but I don't agree the the BSA is the source of over-emphasizing. It's the unit adults that struggle with the leadership method. And personally I don't care about the difference between leadership and management. We are really talking about responsibility in the bigger picture, aren't we? I find that idividual personality will lead a scout to a style of manager or leader. However, the reason unit leaders struggle with the leadership Method is the same reason they struggle with the Advancement Method, they are looking at the wrong goals of growth. The goal is Character Growth, not leadership growth, or advancement growth, or camping growth and so on. Oh of course we want the scout to become a better leader because that is a great life skill and frankly easy to measure. But if a scout finds that he is not capable of living up to expectations and decides to step down to help his team perform better; is that not character growth? When adults shift the focus to the higher mission of character growth, they usually find themselves changing the way they guide and judge each scout's performance of the "methods". Then as Turtleman said, we appreciate each scout better for their differences of performing and customize the expectations on each method. It's more challenging for the adults, but much more rewarding. Barry

That might explain why our experience is different in our council, our average classes are 50/50 (give or take) cubs and troop leaders. It keeps the average age about the same as the units. Barry

I agree with everyting you say in the contrext you give, but where we difference is you keep putting responsibility of accountibility on the scout, not the SM. It doesn't matter if the scout performed for one POR or a dozen PORs, it's up to the SM to set the standard of accountibility and measure the scouts performance. If a scout says I was a PL for six months and nothing else, the BOR will straighten out the SM to help coach the scout explain himself better, or suggest the SM step it up on guideing scouts during their 6 months stint, not just at the end. If the scout didn't live up to expectation, that is a SM problem. And as I explained in TTs post, a SM Conference is a little late to hold the scout accountible to bad performance because he may have felt he did well. The SM sets the standards of accountibility for the program. Now the BOR should have some say in that, but the SM directs the factors of performance for the whole program. I do agree with you that scout should learn the skill of explaining themselves well to those who are responsible of holding them accoutable like the SM or BOR. I like that. Barry

Stosh, you say tomatoes, I say tomatoes. The 6th month term doesn’t encourage abuse any more than letting scouts adding up 6 months worth of multiple POR time because the human SM is still judging if the scout performed six months’ worth of responsibility. I know this because we also allow scouts to add up all their POR time. You like your style of Scoutmastering better, so you think it encourages better boy performance. And maybe it does in some aspects, who knows. But in the big picture, it is still up to the adult to judge the scout’s performance. I’ve seen and experienced enough program styles to understand that one program style does not insure better leadership performance than another. It’s up to the adult and their style of program and observation. I had the same argument with Kudu years ago. I can assure you that our elected scouts work their tails off for 6 months. The question asked wasn’t how should the OP overhaul the troop program to make the scouts work better, he asked how to measure and encourage better performance. The answers to that question will work with just about any program style. Barry

Uh oh! This is timely. http://washingtonexaminer.com/irs-lo...rticle/2538263

You guys are so funny. Google "resignation of acting IRS commissioner".

Interesing comments. I curious, how you all feel about the IRS being used to target certian groups and individuals that don't agree with the politics of power? You know what I mean.

Well we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Most parents that want to see a program in action for the purpose of picking a troop are not helicopter parents, nomatter how the program is presented. I would have concern of a troop where I as a parent were not allowed to see the program in action. It's also my personal opinion that troops shouldn't plan a campout specifically for webelos because they should observe a typical monthly program, but that is just me. Barry

>>The point of demarkation IMHO is that once you pin on that 1st class rank, you are considered a de facto troop trainer for anyone of lesser rank than you. If you are 1st class, you not only know how / what to do for yourself, but you know the material well enough to TRAIN YOUNGER SCOUTS