Eagledad

Getting the discussion back on track, I agree with you point that social changes bring discomfort and poltical agendas are necessary to alleviate the discomfort. But politics is about grabbing power and that takes dollars. Ironically the gay activist didn' t have the money to buy the poltical power until funding came for AIDS cure research.

I have stood firmly in this forum for many many years on the position that the healthiest lifestyle for raising the healthiest children are families with a mother and father. Anything less, is a lot less. There used to be a lot of data to support that claim, but recent studies attempt to suggest otherwise. My life experiences and observations are counter to these new studies and this article, to me, explains why. Now I am fully aware of those on this forum whose opinions are fuel by politcal bias and have little ability to approach any subject fairly. Still, I think this is a pretty good article that explains the present pop culture of social science. The article is centered around homosexuality, but in my case I think any family without a mother and father is at a disadvantage, not just families with gay parents. However, homosexuality is the pop culture thing right now, so the subject seems to center most studies. But it is an interesting read: http://www.american.com/archive/2013/december/scientific-groupthink-and-gay-parenting

Well since you are there Cambridge, enlighten us of the Daily Mails inaccuracie's. Barry

Removing reverence is removing moral values. The result is turning a character development program into a camping program. A youth program cannot survive off the theme of camping, so Fred is exactly right. Removing reverence is the death of scouting. Barry

It's interesting to watch the discussion of this wonderful young man. We have many scouts (my older son included) who were so busy with scouting that they didn't do their EBOR untill a couple of weeks before their 18th birthday. What I find so interesting is most of those guys (my son included) could have cared less about an award. I agree this scout needs some recognition and I don't have an answer to the original question, but I would be careful that this recognition isn't more important for the adults than the scout. What ever you choose to do for this scout, you are setting a model for all the other scouts in the troop. So be careful what you are trying to say. Barry

As I read this discussion, the one main thing being left out are the goals of the program. Mainly in this case the Aims: character growth, fitness (mental and physical) growth and citizen (social selfless giving) growth. The BSA gives explicit guidiance to going toward those Aims with the Eight Methods. The patrol method is the best way for scouts to use a "balance" of the methods to reaching the Aims. Now there is a lot of adult theory in this discussion that seems to complicate the questions. So instead go back to basics by using the Patrol Leaders Handbook and SPL Handbooks and let the scouts figure out the best ways to solve their problems using the simple guide of those books. But remember their isn't a troop method in the BSA, only the Patrol method. We adults tend to complicate situations when we want help scouts in their struggles. But really if we keep the program simple (patrol method), the scouts can figure it out. Get back to basics by reading the material and cutting out the clutter. Then see what the scouts do with it using their handbooks. If they can make the SPL work, great and leave them a lone. If a position is too much overhead, trust me they will change it. They just have to know you trust them. Barry

It seems like you have a pretty good grasp of your situation Bokris, you just need some experience to learn how to do your job better. We are all there because good scout mastering is continued growth through humility. It never stops. I tell folks all the time time that I did more things wrong than I did right, but somehow we did ok. Learn from the trials so you know how to do it better next time. As for the 12 year old maturity, I teach adults to balance the youth leadership with enough of adult energy to give the scouts growth. Understand that growth comes from the Scouts' discovery of making good decisions baised from "their" experiences, not what the adults tell them they should learn. But we must understand that 12 year old SPL has neither the maturity or experience of a 16 year old SPL. Your program has to challenge the 12 year old to grow so they can be the mature 16 year olds without overwhelming them and taking out the fun. That is a HUGE challenge for the adults because they have to constantly step back as the scouts grow. How much room should you give scouts? Enough to find their limits to crossing the line of not being fun anymore, then pulling back just a small bit. Remember, adults have to learn more faster so they don't get in the scouts' way. Where troops fail is when the adults get lazy and quit learning from the experiences. Barry

A few things from my phone. One, I visited a different troop once a month for five months to see how other troops operated. I learned a lot. Two, we try to brief parents of youth leader expectations before elections so they know what their sons are getting into. Three, I always tried to talk to parents in person. If that won't work, then on phone. They are much less aggressive and more open to a friendly conversation. A quit easy voice always encourages listening. I once had a mother yell at me during what could have been a very difficult situation envolving several families. I told her I was coming to her house that moment to discuss (defuse) the situation. We had the matter settled 30 minutes later in her living room after a very friendly conversation. Barry

The editor keeps kicking me out. Wish me luck on this fourth attempt. There are many leader styles that accomplish similar goals with the similar degrees of a boy run. Used correctly, patrol dads, or whatever you call them, give a PL more freedom and independence to lead the patrol. That for me means more growth and experience. Troop environments are great for allowing patrols to be creative and spontaneous, but the outside world is not so friendly to boys. An adult resource is one tool the PL can use to help with those kinds of challenges with activities independent of the troop. Some SMs like to hold closer control of the PLs than others and I'm sure that works. But that is just one of many successful leadership styles. Barry

>>Nope, just don't see any positive advantage to having den mothers/patrol dads hanging around after Webelos II.

And when the PL ask his assistant for driving resources to a camp, he only has to, WAIT a MINUTE. I think one should expereince patrol advisers before making comments of them. We had patrol advisers when I was a youth scout and I only remember him being source to the PL, especially in areas of logistics. Our patrols usually do two patrol campouts a year and PLs lean on the Patrol Advisor in areas that require an adult. Of course like anything, tools can be used incorrectly, but they can certainly help a boy run patrol be even more independent. Barry

I personally like to dress more formally at for more formal occasions. I found a pair of the perfect color Haggar slacks that I wore to all scout gatherings that were more formal than a Troop meeting. As for setting the example to the scouts, I think it lives up to the best intention of the Uniform method. I promise you will never hear a scout say otherwise. Barry

>>Our kids are exposed to innumerable man/womanhood rituals that undermine their proper character development. It's our jobs as caring adults to call their attention to any of it.

It is not my intention to point at inner city black familles, but this article got me thinking about my son who is a high school teacher in a high risk inner city school. Only 80% of his students are hispanic. He says the Hispanics also have manhood rituals that push them into starting fights that prove their worth. Barry

Here is a piece from Forbes that underlines the noble vision of Scouting and values intended to influence in our youth.http://www.forbes.com/sites/billfrezza/2013/11/26/the-knockout-game-goes-viral-the-hunger-games-its-not/ “Rather, they appear to be manhood rituals designed to increase the esteem of attackers amongst their peers. Both the hoodlums involved and their laughing companions seem to accord no more moral significance to these violent attacks than they would to pulling the wings off flies.â€Â

Troop size is usually a result of the Scoutmaster's agenda and managing skills. We had a troop of 200 scouts a few years ago with a SM who was a retired Navy sea captain. He was one of those strong Type A people that knew how to work with large numbers. If a Troop has a large membership surge and the SM can't handle the numbers, it will fall back to managable numbers in less than three years. I think somewhere 25 is the average troop size nationally. That is more a refection on the SMs' skills than their desires. Not that many adults can manage large groups. Barry

Bando paints a pretty typical scenario. Our research and experience found that only 2 out of 10 splits have the success they originally planned. What typically happens is the new troop fades into a much smaller troop while the original troop becomes big again. The reason for this is the adults. The adults of the successful troop stay with that troop while the lesser performing adults move to the new program. There is also the dynamics issues between the family who split as well. We also found that it is better for the troops to find completely different sponsors to prevent the drama that Bando talks about. My advice to units considering this idea (including ours at one time) is don’t do it because the odds of success are against you. Barry

Yes, I had a similar story as well. But sometimes you would be surprised what boys acting likes scouts will get as well. Our troop of about 60 scouts and adults stopped at a Pizza Hut in a small town in the panhandle of Texas. I believe it was Dumas. We were on our way home to Oklahoma City coming from a week long summer camp in Colorado. We typically wear our Class A uniforms during travel, but our troop stopped and did a half day rafting trip after we left in camp that morning. We didn’t bother to change in our uniforms because, well frankly we were tired, smelly, and nasty from the rafting. We just wanted to get home. Anyways, four hours later in Texas we stopped at the Pizza Hut for dinner. The adults taking a break from driving (and the boys) came in the restaurant a couple minutes after them. The PLC had already found tables and picked one for the adults separated from the scouts. We sat down and ordered a few pizzas and a couple pitchers of sodas. When the manager brought out the first pitchers, he said half the pizza and all the drinks were on Pizza Hut. At this point the adults did not know that anyone knew we were scouts. We certainly didn’t look (or smell) like it, so we were baffled by the generosity. The manager explained that the boys were so orderly and considerate of the other people in the restaurant when they came in, we just knew they had to be boy scouts. So we asked and they told us they were a troop from Oklahoma City. We are impressed and want to acknowledge it by helping out with your bill. When folks talk about bad examples of scouts in public, I always think back on the evening. Barry

There was an understanding with the GSUSA, I just don't know where it stands now. I am quite confident that the BSA has no desire to jump into anymore snake pits for awhile. Barry

You're basing national numbers from what? LOL! It will take 5 years to see the real effects of this years decisions.

I was told in the early 90s that the BSA had an agreement with the GSUSA to not recruit girls into Cubs or Troops or hell would come down on the organization. Now I admit that the American womens rights organizations don't have the power they had then (Clinton), but given the beating they took this year from political correctness, the BSA would be stupid to open that gate. Barry

After working with thousands of youth over my lifetime, I'm convinced the BSA is a bit ahead of the rest of the world. And it isn't likely to change anytime soon either because taking members from the GSUSA in America would be another political hornets nest. The GSUSA is very much supported by womens rights organizations.

It is believed that the BSA and GSUSA have had an unwritten agreement for many years to leave things as they are. Barry

I was talking to a friend some years ago who was telling me about a business conference he attended some years earlier. He said there were several hundred people in attendance with most of them talking while waiting for the first speaker. The first speaker approached the podium and was a bit perplexed to how he was going to get everyone’s attention. After a few moments of pause, he raised the scout sign. Immediately a few signs rose up with more and more gradually following eventually bringing the room to quiet calm. My friend said it was obvious the speaker’s sign was more reactionary than planned and he was as surprised by the immediate response as was the rest of the room. He said there were as many women in the room as men, but surprisingly to everyone, the speaker’s action worked. I agree with Stosh that the Scout Sign gets over used and abused, but we shouldn’t ignore the power that it provides as a tool. When the sign is raised, it simply says “Respect for the floor Pleaseâ€Â. The problem comes when it is used as a tool for punishment instead of calling for respect. I see it over and over, the person of authority holding the sign until well beyond the given respect until the blood has completely left everyone’s arms. At the point, the person holding the sign is really saying “When I say shut up, I mean SHUT UPâ€Â. I respect Stosh for teaching his scouts not to use the sign for the purpose of bringing respect to the floor, but using the sign for that purpose is universally accepted with all Boy Scouts in North America, maybe even universally. To say that it shouldn’t be learned and used for the purpose would be like saying we should never drink tap water. Instead what scouters should do is as stosh suggest, teach how to use the sign for the intended use of respect, not as a tool to punish. If a scout cannot bring respect to the floor within a reasonable time with the sign, there are bigger problems that need attention. And those bigger problems are typical with younger scouts. Like anything with ignorance, proper behavior has to be taught and developed. That is what scouting is all about. Teach the skills of the Oath and Law and how to apply them in all the scouts actions. This is a good subject in how to develop boys totally ignorant of a boy run structure. The question is a little difficult in that the OP suggest getting from A to Z in just a few weeks. I know that isn’t what was meant, but without experience, the OP didn’t know how to ask. The real objective for this age group isn’t teaching Patrol Leading, but self confidence and independence. And while the overall big goal is good, we have to remember that big goals generally require many small steps. As I said before, start with just a few activities and work from there. Don’t expect perfection, just a little growth. When the scouts seem to have the confidence of that independence, raise the bar a little and keep them challenged. Once they seem to get more confidence, add more structure. Anytime the scouts aren’t having fun, change the structure a little. It works well for the Webelos age group. Confidence and Independence is all boys need at this age and experience. With that, they will do fine in most any troop program. Barry

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