Eagledad

If more committees ran the pack like your pack Woodward, the Cub program would be in much better shape. I know at first it seems restrictivily departmental, but I'm sure you will be able to assist the other adults in those areas that are of interest to you. Trust and old scouter who has had to help fix some broken packs, yours is way way ahead in running a consistently strong program. Barry

I agree completely with Fred. Many folks don't realize that on average only about 10% of cub families have done any camping. Make it simple and easy for everyone. Also, packs tend to collect a lot of junk over the years, just go borrow what you need from a troop. Barry

It’s hard to know how troops might encourage their scouts to hold off on Eagle, but our program just didn't put a high priority on advancement. We probably do put some emphasis on leadership development, but not so much on the leadership experience. There is a big difference. I do know that scouts who transfer in to our troop from other troops say our program is kind of intimidating because our PLC takes on a lot more responsibility than their troops. They really enjoy our program, but tend to stay away from the big responsibilities. The Eagle process does get in the way sometimes because our focus is on leadership development and patrol method, while families get anxious for advancement. They fear if their son doesn’t get it by 14, they won’t get it at all. We just tell them its all up to their son. We have plenty of Eagles, so I think we are doing OK. Barry

That is interesting. Average age in the 1940s was 14? I will have to ask my dad about that. I will admit the average age of our Eagles while I was SM was 16, but our guys were just busy with scouting stuff. A 14 year old Eagle in our troop is typically a nerd type of personality. Seems Ok to me because they still hang around until 18. Barry

Who likes to hold back scouts from Eagle until they are 18? Strange!

I tend to try and assume the OP is giving the most accurate account of the situations the bring here to the forum, but I am having trouble with this one. Not saying it didn't happen, but typically SM Conferences have some degree of privacy even when they are done near groups of people. And there are so many ways the phrase Paper Eagle could be used and taken out of context. This thread has so many broad implications that I don't even know where to start. Hmm.

Maybe you right, so how do you interpret what he is telling the OP on how to handle his scouts?

>>Like these guys Stosh<< We had one in my troop. Nothing became of it because he had far bigger issues with his family. Stosh, I don't recall ever seeing a SM try so hard to protect his scouts from the BSA religious aspect of the program. Why? Barry

>>For example a diest believe their religious duties amount to living you life governed by reason , well it's a little more complicated than that but you get the idea. They are also distinctly NOT atheist.<< While I have known leaders who put a lot of focus on being reverent (as opposed to zero focus) I’ve never know one to discount a family who teaches deism to their children. I’m not so sure that deism isn’t one of God’s way of creating a path to him directly, who knows. But what little deism I have witnessed certainly has application teaching that can be quantified with the law and oath. You can’t ask for more than that. Barry

I don't know, I would play by ear. I have had several scouts with atheist parents and this was never an issue. In fact they allowed or encourage their son to work for the religious award to learn. I think we adults make way to big a thing out of it. Boys go through a lot of self-searching between ages 10 to 17. I just want to give them the chance to do some of that searching in a scouting environment with godly role models. Barry

>> Eagledad, I might have misunderstood your above post. You would pass a scout along in SMC's and allow him to gain ranks as an atheist, but stop him at eagle? That does not seem right.<< Sorry, I didn’t see this until now. I would suggest the family be open to allowing their son to the possibility through discovery of the scout experience. They would know up front that likely the EBOR would not allow him to get the award if he still believes in no god. But seven years is a long time to experience life and to cut boy from scouting just because he doesn’t have a clue during parts of that life experience seems to me, well ungodly. Of course the parents have to agree and the scout has to be at least open to an idea of god or spirit or whatever. Who knows what the wonders of the Boundary Waters might inspire in a scout. Barry

That is a pretty good explanation of reverent I guess, but we members of the BSA still have to contend with the Scout Handbook "A Scout is Reverent. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others." And there is that "duty to god" thing in the oath. I like your suggestion Matt. Barry

Good post qwazse. In my experience, it’s not so much the families have no belief in god, they just aren’t active in how they believe in god. I typically approach the parents and tell them that the troop does a religious service on campouts. It’s not regimented or specific, it is very generic. We like to ask for volunteers to plan and lead the service. Then I ask them how they feel about that structure. Even if they are atheist (and we have a few), I ask them how they want us to work with their son with the reverent part of the law. In my case the parents have encourage their son to explore that part of the program so they can determine their own belief. I also point out that the reverence question will likely be asked several times during Scoutmaster conferences and boards of reviews because it is part of living the scout oath and law, especially at the Eagle BOR. I point out that no belief at the EBOR will likely disqualify him of the Eagle award. I make a point that we are not trying to sway their son one way or the other and welcome his interest and discovery on the subject. The unit will not judge him and he is always be welcome to troop, but the BSA does require some reverence, however that is accomplished. I have never had a family that had any issues and most of the time they find me over concerned on the matter. But I just want everyone to understand everything up front. Now if I ever had a young scout tell me he had no belief or reverence toward god or any kind of spirit, I would only ask him to keep an open mind as he experiences the scouting activities. I would likely ask him about it during his SM conferences so that by the time we get to Eagle, there would be an expectation and no surprises. I would also be talking to the parents at the same time about everything we have talked about so that nobody is surprised and we can work as a team if ever needed. But I have never had any of the several hundred scouts I've worked with tell me that. I hope that helps. Barry

Exactly SS, now from the BSA advancement guide for the Eagle rank. "Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your daily life. List on your Eagle Scout Rank Application the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf, including parents/guardians, religious, educational, and employer references."" Let's help the OP with his question of scouts with no faith.

I think his point is pretty clear that it's not about his faith or anyone else's, but how to deal with the scouts no faith. Oh and you made your point clear when you poked your nose in the discussion with your first response.

SScout, duty to god is in the oath, sexuality is not. Now you and others can choose to make scouting what you want, but for others that take it seriously, skipping the hard stuff isn't an option. Pack, the OP didn't talk about his faith or anybody else's, they just asked a simple question of how to work with families of no faith. Considering your history of opinions on this subject, are you really the right person to answer? Barry

And if the scout isn't thrifty, ever? Then what, ignore it? What about friendly, courteous and kind? How do you equate those values of life in a scouts everyday living? Your belief has absolutely nothing to do with the question. God is part of scouting and a requirement of being a member. Your personal prejudice against this subject doesn't help volunteers who take scouting seriously and need real help. Barry

This is a good question. Are scout leaders to judge if a scout is living the god part of the oath and law in anyway or fashion? We here debate on end whether a scout is judged worthy of Eagle, but we don't dare ask the god question? And even worse, if a scout admits "simply nothing" of god, that's OK? This is the BSA and it is still presently a values program with the vision a making scouts into moral and ethical decision makers. If the choice is to ignore it, fine. But as stosh points out, future opinions from adult scout leaders of the other parts of the oath and law are held with equal or zero integrity.

That is my point Matt and you said it better than me. I think most of us have our own personal program goals to help keep us on track and our troop has a goal of building a program where the adults aren't needed if they didn't show up. That forces a train of thought of building a culture of trust and respect. Trust and respect are outward actions toward others. That kind of culture takes a long time, but it requires the adults to do a lot of self evaluations to mature enough for that kind of program. I've also been thinking about what you and qwazse posted and come to agree that this wasn't a misstep on Joebobs part, but a step toward improving the program by trying something. That is what good scout leaders do. Barry

What's interesting for me about how this discussion has gone is that I don' t think I ever used the words bully or intimidation while I was a Scoutmaster, I always applied the positive context of the Scout Law and Oath to describe behavior. I learned that when a scout is challenged with a question as to how their behavior fit in the guidelines of the law, they struggled to draw the answer if they were intending to be defensive. Asking the question many times stumps the quick witted scout forcing them to pause for an appropriate defense. And usually I quickly dismissed the scout to think about so we could discuss it later. They hated that, but it allowed time to change the tone of defense to one of a more concilitory discussion. I think the hardest habit for adults get away from in scouting is attacking a scout about his behavior. We only have to ask a question to force them to see repercussions of their choices. This really has little to do with Joebobs question, it was just on my mind. Barry

I'll go along with that qwazse. Where I struggle with Jobbob is his statement "Big kids intimidate smaller kids. In the real world, you and I are not going to change that.". Big kids don't intimidate smaller kids, he needs to change that perception. Bullies intimidate the weaker. Our program relies so much on the older scouts guiding the younger scouts that the very idea of boy run would be in conflict with JobBobs assumption. Intimidation happens in units where scouts don't support each other in accountibility. I think this is what jobBob is trying to fix, I agree and support him. I'm only suggesting a different approach. And while I do agree with you that learning that this scout intimidates other scouts is valuable, it doesn't in my mind justify using the PLC (immature PLC) in this manner. As I said, is Joebob setting a standard where the PLC has to call up every rude behavior? They are going to be quite busy. It would be better to teach the troop as a whole to confront bad behavior when it happens and as a group supporting each other. Our scouts have learned that scouts who watch a scout behave badly and do nothing was going to be held just as accountable as the misbehaved scout. You can't have a truly boy run program until the scouts feel safe with true independence. Leave the PLC to deal with the struggle of running the program or really bad behavior issues. Teach scouts to comfront and support each other. I hope that all makes sense. I also have a high respect for adults learning and feeling their way to running a program. I certainly did more wrong than I did right in growing with our units. As JoeBob pointed out, there is value in experienced opinions for trying something different to do better the next time. Barry

With full respect of what you are giving to the scouting program Joe, I am not trying to protect my pride here. I am only responding from my experience. Most folks on this forum know that I am the least politically correct person you will ever meet. But whatever you want to call it, boys have to grow and mature into the different levels of their decision making process. I let discovery go pretty far, but I drew the line when scout reacted out of fear. I once read from an old 1940s scout leaders’ guide that for a scout to learn a thing, he must repeat that thing. Well it goes both ways, if scouts repeatedly react from the emotion of fear, they will struggle to develop the habit of making decisions based from principled values. Scouting is a safe place. Growth from fear was not intended as part of the troop model. Barry

Well you guys have a better feel for this than I. Joe, nothing about your post makes me comfortable. The PLC did fine, but the two youngest scouts are too afraid to Punish the Scout? Punish? Is that what you are trying to get? And Afraid? How was this all fine? What punishment do you think this scout deserves? It's time to call in mom and dad and have discussion without the PLC. The adults need to do something with this Eagle so that young scouts aren't "afraid" of making decisions and his parents need to be an active part of the situation. I’m not sure how I see a punishment situation here, but certainly there needs to be an alignment of expectations and attitudes. I admit, not observing all this puts us at big disadvantage, but troop adults need to maintain a balance of maturity with the general maturity of the scouts so that they are not forced into making decisions from the emotion of fear or intimidation. I am all for scouts taking responsibility of holding other scouts accountable, but there is big gray area between accountability and punishment. That scouts are afraid tells me that your program is not yet at a maturity where scouts can be making these kinds of decisions. As I said I am not there, but from what you have posted, it looks like you might be a little too aggressive with the boy run. Barry

Your aren't old fashion Jblake, just a little boring. I performed this ceremony a dozen times and I'm still here to tell about it. It is a really cool ceremony LOL, but National now forbids it. As for adults setting the example, there is a right way to do anything, and a wrong way. The good example is doing it the right way. The Scouts in our troop take pride in going the extra mile for doing really cool ceremonies. Their creativity is pretty impressive and they have received standing ovations at summer camp. Our troop does a good job on safety training, but I admit I have seen some minor incidents in other troops. In each case, training followed. Barry