Eagledad

My apologies, I was pulled away. The problem with many of our opinions is that they don't really explain what we want to achieve or why one style or method is prefered over another. AND most of the time we prefer what works best for us personality, not what works best for everyone. For example, I know that I can build a very successful troop using the SPL position. The position isn't evil or destructive and doesn't make a troop less boy run or less patrol method. SPL also doesn't make a program more troop method, UNLESS the position is guided that way by the adults. See part of the problem here is that many think that Boy Scouts is a boys program to let them do what they want. In fact it has always been and adult program use to guide boys in their growth toward being adults. From the very day Baden Powell started the boys scouts, there was an adult driven objective to what a boy was to get from his experience. Even the most radical suggestions of patrol method and boy run given on this forum are adult driven. So I read these post and wonder how in the world are we to take adults totally ignorant to scouting and camping and show them what they are supposed to be doing, and more importantly, why. Sadly I've also come to take the articles in Scouter magazine with a grain of salt because they have gotten more directive and bias without much balance in there substance. Troop method vs Patrol method, age based patrols vs, mixed age patrols, First Class in one year, Eagle Requirements, all these things are based on perspectives of scouting experience, life experiences, and philosphical approaches to life. National has an advantage because it is in control of what it publishes to ALL its leaders. However, we in the trenches have some power through personal communication like forums and local scouter functions. Of course there are as many opinions of how to run a scout program as there are personalities. But I have noticed in the last few years that the opinions are appear more radical and extreme, and the new adults today have less experienced to judge the differences of those opinions. So, they are ignoring those opinions. One example is when I started on scouter.com way back when, we average over 800 participants at any one time. Now there how many dozen. I used to teach in my Scoutmaster course to use Scouter.com as a tool for new ideas, but lately I've been told members here are out of touch and don't understand todays program. Hmm, after reading about the evils of using the SPL, maybe they are right. Is your advice really practical with todays average new leader? I know National has lost touch, but if those of us who have worked with hundreds or thousands of scouts can't help these folks, what hope is there for scouting in the future? We need to rethink our approach. Barry

LOL, only a few weeks ago you were praising Scouting magazine because it was promoting a style that you favor, same age patrols. That article also had a one-side bias bent, but it was a great resource then. Clearly for me that National has lost touch with the practical approaches to the Scouting program, but I don't see hope in the BSA future because even the opinions here come off as extreme. The majority of new scout leaders joining today don't have a youth scouting experience or much outdoors camping experience and you guys expect them to trust your fanatical opinions, why? Seems we have lost the objective of scouting for each individual boy as well as the motivation for being a Scout in the first place. Barry

It’s not ego or pride, it’s the natural instinct of competing and it is part of most of us. We can either use this activity and other activities like it to prepare and teach our sons how to control their desires by practicing acts of discipline, or we can teach that competition is bad and make it a taboo. Human nature is very strong, we can either work with it or struggle against it. I look at this cub activity as an opportunity for the family to work together. So when adults create rules intended to separate the parents from their son, it removes that opportunity. While it is true that competition can lead to adults behaving badly, it is also the opportunity for developing boys to practice the character trait of fairness. In fact this is the ideal age to learn that behavior. There are many simple ways to keep the competition fair, but the main objective is not to take competition out of the equation. Instead make it manageable at a boy level so the scouts get a chance to practice self-control at their level of maturity. One way to keep competition fair for young boys is by keeping the rules simple so that the limits are easily recognized. And there are many ways to do this without watering down the competition itself like allowing only the parts in the kit. We use parents and grandparents of scouts as judges. You would think by the trend of this discussion that none of the parents are capable of fair competition. Truth is that only a few loose themselves in this competition. The rest want the boys to have their day. As for how to deal with those heavy handed adults, we have a pinewood derby committee who enforce the rules. These are usually the more enthusiastic dads who work and bring balance by working together and they do a pretty good job of dealing emotional participants. One other thing we do that really helps keep the event fair is do the pre check-in the day before the competition. That gives the committee a day to make sure all the cars are fair, and more importantly a day to fix the cars. The committee members are usually dads who know their way around pinewood derby cars and tools, so they can pretty much fix anything. While this discussion is about the aggressive parents with super modified cars, truth is most cars need a little help getting up to a fair competition setup because their parents didn’t have the skills build a fair running car. If you want to see the best of mans nature, just watch these men in action. Competition is part of life, so the skills of behavior to be fair competitors should be learned and practiced during the developing years of youth. I am not a fan of no-winner activities nor am I of handing trophies to all participants. Life isn’t nearly as compassionate and self-control can only be learned when we are challenged to lose it. I would say that this is one of our packs favorite activities. We have races for the scouts, the family members and an open class. We provide a meal deal of hot dogs, chips and a drink for a bargain price and we do a lot of cheers and chanting. It has become a great family Friday night activity. We try to keep the event under an hour and a half, so we set up two tracks to run all the races. Barry

Kind of funny, but I knew it was time when I dreaded answering the phone. As you all know, I love talking about scouting, so it was time for a break. Barry

LOL;) Barry

I agree with using the SPL Handbook. It's a good starting place for the SPL expectations and it is in print for both the scouts and adults to learn. The balance between adults and scouts is both groups understanding the goals and expectations of each other. The handbooks actually do a pretty good job of spelling all that out. SPL duties are pretty basic, leaving the PLs to do more of the heavy lifting. It takes practice for both the scouts and adults to understand how to do this scouting stuff, so starting with a common understanding helps a lot. Barry

Oh sure, we agree. I was just kind of thinking out loud of the challenges with modern technology migrating into everything. When I was SM, I encouraged (kind of lectured) the scouts to always keep their books nearby for no other reason than it is a good tool for reference. I’m sure at least 25% of the scouts lost one or more copies while in the troop. However, I can see where a scout would be more motivated to keep a Scout Handbook with him at all times if it were a digital copy in his cell phone. And with the Cloud, the records would be permanent. Hmm, interesting question to ponder. Barry

It is interesting to watch how technology is changing our behavior patterns. I work in the aviation industry and the type of training and how it is being applied in the industry has changed a lot in the last 20 years just as a result of computer technology. The forum has discussed in the past the idea of giving the Scout and Merit Badge Counselor total autonomy over the completion of the MB requirements simply by logging into the scouting computer data system. The result would take the MB part of the program totally out of the hands of the troop. I actually kind of like that idea. Last week there was a discussion asking if scouts even need handbooks anymore. Well I guess they need them for logging their advancement at the very least, but what if they could do that from their cell phone. Leaders today certainly have different issues to deal with than we had just 15 years ago. LOL Barry

When the time comes, ask your DE to spread the word to other DE's and District CCs in the council that you are looking for a slot. Most crews are created at least a year before the date and losing a crew member is normal. Your question is pretty basic and doesn't take into consideration the minimum reqirements like age and maturity for joining the crew. Barry

Yes, it is only a Method. LOL! Barry

It seems like what you are really asking is: “What are the CC and SM’s responsibilities?â€Â. That the question is being asked does suggest a lack of some training on the adults part. The simple quick answer is sit down together with that cup of coffee, as was suggested, and figure out what the responsibilities are for the CC and the SM. You can even cheat and use the handbooks. But in the bigger picture you are going to have to figure out a way of working the CC to get this stuff sorted out because differences in expectations happen a lot. And it’s not just with the CC, there will always be that one adult who isn’t following the SM’s expectations. So working with the CC now is good practice for future discussions with ASMs, Committee members and parents. It’s not a fun part of the SM job, but it is important. Barry

It's all part of the process LeCastor, all part of the process. It is very rare that the whole unit decides to up and change. These things usually start from a visionary with skills of an Alaskan refrigerator salesman. Every troop is boy run, but only about 5% are "Boy Run". Barry

Yes, but it's not so much convincing that is needed as just practice. Boy run is not anymore natural to parents than it is for their sons. Adults need to learn faster than the scouts just so they can figure out how to stay out of the way. Adults must grow so the scouts can grow. Troops that struggle the most with any kind of change are the ones that don't try to change with the maturing performance of the scouts. Sentinel obviously has a vision and the willingness to change for that vision. Well done. Barry

Well I didn't say your troop, I said “this troop†meaning any troop that makes up its own policies over stated organization policies doesn't really need a book that gives policies. And let’s be fair, how many troops let the handbook be the policy guide? VERY few. But making up policy usually is taking power away from the scouts. It's just our nature, when a policy isn't enforced, the guy with the biggest stick will set the policy. Very very rarely is the guy with the biggest stick a scout. Letting scouts make their own decisions from printed policies, processes and procedures gives them power because nobody can take those guidelines away. But an unprinted made up policy can change in the flash of temptation. Most people here know me as a boy run guy. I believe in boy run because it creates the best environment for scout growth. So where is the scout growth in this one example? Well a lot of it is a scout making the choice to not dress by the handbook guidelines just because he starting to think it nerdy (Typical for 13 to 15 years). If that wrong choice is OK, then what else can chose wrongly just because we aren't in the mood? Is he making a right or wrong choice in the big picture? Is he being a good role model for the younger scouts. In life, we will always have to give some to the man, we can't always rebel against policies, guidelines and laws of the community. So what habits do we want our scouts to develop? It is interesting that enabling scouts with the freedom of choice can sometimes turn into the wrestling with a Tiger because freedom allows the beast of temptation to make a wrong choice. Such was the concern of our PLC who absolutely hated the official BSA scout pants of the mid-1990s. No big deal to me, I wasn’t the enforcer, it was their scout handbook. But this was a big enough problem for them that they called a meeting with the SM (me) to solve the problem of changing the troop uniform policy. Again, no big deal to me because the scouts were responsible for enforcing their policies, they could do what they like and I would allow it. However, they knew I would also ask the question of if they were making a right choice. So, we had a lot of dialog about what they liked and didn’t like, what would be official uniform and what wouldn’t be and so on. In the end, they decided to switch to an Olive Drab Army BDU because it was the same color as the BSA official uniform pant, it was adjustable to four sizes. It came in synthetic material, it had huge cargo pockets (not on scout pants at the time). And they were less than half the price. Pretty impressive research, don’t you think? And I was sold, the OD BDU’s were a great replacement for the BSA pants. But there is still that handbook thing with the official BSA pants. So, I came to an agreement with PLC, if Council would accept the BDUs as an acceptable replacement for our troop, I would gladly accept them as well. I of course knew council would not go against national policy, but I was impressed and proud of how the scouts approached making this change. ACCEPT, council did agree with the scouts. I honestly didn't see it coming. I feel that I did my part to help scouts understand the right and wrong of decisions based from BSA guidelines, not Barry's leveraged suggestions. It was never judgmental, but more of enquiring of their thoughts that made them feel the obligation to get it right. The scouts did their part in going through a process that allowed a different choice without the burden of knowing their choice was wrong. It was the weight of just a few words in their Handbook that held them accountable that forced them to seek a acceptably moral result. Other challenges come up now and then, but that is the one that sticks out in my mind. Barry

Then I would say the handbook is not required for this troop. The handbook clearly explains to the scouts when, what, and where for wearing a proper uniform. But if the troop is going make up their own policies for wearing the uniform, then why not make up all the program policies? Nobody uses a square not in real life, let’s change that skill to proper use of bungee cords. And hey, two pots require less water for KP, lets change to the two pot method. ​This discussion goes hand in hand with using the SPL and PL Handbook, either we give the scouts the tools to function independently, or we don't. When a troop decides to ignore the handbooks, direction usually comes from the adults 95% of the time. Adults should not be tempted to lecture a scout on proper uniforming, but instead only need to ask the scout if he is following Scouting policy. Adults should be guides of making right decisions, not creators and dictators of program policy. I know, it’s kind of anal, but how are we supposed to encourage young men to develop habits of making right decisions if the decision changes in the moment? Barry

Like most manuals, we only read them when we need to, not when we want to. Do your scouts need to read their handbook to know how and when to wear the uniform in your troop? Barry

Hi Atomic. Positions of Responsibility are not the same as rank. You have the highest responsibility for all the members of your patrol, no matter their rank or job responsibilities outside your patrol. It appears that some of the scouts like your ASPL don't understand each other's duties to their job. I like the idea of approaching the SPL first and then maybe the SM to get a better definition of your responsibilities as well as the ASPL's. The three of you should have a quiet discussion intended to clear up the confusion. If after the meeting the ASPL still insist on disrespecting your leadership, then suggest to him and the SM that he chage patrols. But the most simple answer to your question is to arrange a meeting for the three of you to understand your responsibilities. Barry

If scouts aren't using their handbooks, how are they learning their skills? Barry

OK, in the context of vision, I fully agree. And in truth that is why I was angry with the rule when it was introduced. But I challenge you to find a hand full of scouts that we lost because of the rule. Any SM who would encourage and allow scouts to have those kinds of experiences will find ways to continue doing those experiences within the intent of the rule. I know this because that is how our troop works. But let me also add, it’s not just about a culture of adults wanting to be more protective. In the name of keeping up with cultural progression that so many here believe is important, the BSA is also putting themselves in situations that can’t allow the independence many of us think is precious for the scouting program. While I have no trouble with allowing my 12 year old son and his patrol to go on a campout without adults, there is no way I would allow my 12 year old daughter to go on that same campout with male patrol mates. I know we don’t allow girls at this level of scouting, but there are a lot of adults that think that is the next step for the BSA. Barry

Adults only need to be present for "overnight" activities. And it really isn't hard to give scouts their independence on overnight activities and stay within the intent of the rule. Has anyone tried the 300 foot separation? It might as well be three miles as far as most scouts care. While I hate the rule, it's more because it just shows where our culture is changing. It didn't interrupt very many troop programs. Barry

When I was given the title of Council JLT Chairman, one of the first task we took on was to rewrite (or write-in) references from Patrol Leaders Handbooks and SPL Handbooks in the BSA published youth leadership training syllabuses of that time. It gave give the JLT syllabuses integrity and a link for the scouts to use the handbooks as practical tools their program. As far as I know, we were the only council in the county to do so. 20 years later I am still astounded that the BSA doesn’t encourage the use of these handbooks in their youth and adult course as well as in unit activities. The forum is a wonderful resource of information, but there is also a barrage of ignorance and narcissism that clouds the simplicity of dialoged on this forum. I generally do all my own maintenance on cars, motorcycles, lawn equipment and so on, and when a “how to fix…†question is asked in those specific forums, the answer is usually, “start with manual and then…..â€Â. So why are questions specific to the Troop program not approached in the same manner? Why does National not encourage handbooks to basic common how-to questions? I challenge any of the adults on this forum to read those handbooks and find what is lacking for a group of scouts to use with minimal guidance to have a positive scouting experience. It has been discussed before that only around 25% (give or take) of BSA troop level volunteers today had a scouting experience as a youth. That behooves a national program like the BSA to encourage a simplistic guide where both the scouts and adults have the same expectations of the Troop program. In a boy run program, the adults don’t have to be the only members of the program that have a clue. Imagine if references to the Patrol Leaders Handbook and SPL Handbook started the replies to questions asked on this forum, there would be a lot less debate and self-posturing for providing ideas and solutions to common situations. Of course experience can always enhance performance to the basic guidelines of handbooks, but printed guidelines in any organization provide a common starting place and consistency to insure confidence of the subject. I am thankful that National is still publishing the PLHB and SPLHB because they help me so much in how I work with the youth and adults, but I wonder why they even bothers since they don’t encourage a reference to them. They are a great way to bring the adults and scout to one mind in working the program. Barry

I've suggested many times over the years in this forum that Troops purchase the PL Handbook and SPL Handbook for their scouts and adults. When I was the District Scoutmaster Specific teacher, I personally gave all the Scoutmasters a copy of each book. There is very little missing from those two handbooks that a Scoutmaster needs for developing a quality boy run program. The best part about them is they can both be read in an hour. The SM Handbook is the best sleeping pill money can buy. Barry

Wow, this is almost identical to what I taught to Troop leaders during our Council Junior Leadership Training Course and Council Adult Leadership Courses. It is well laid out and basically supports what most experienced boy run leaders on this forum suggest. And excellent resource and checklist for a troop trying to become more boy run and patrol method. Thanks Sentinel. Barry

Interestingly, my highest priority of concern is the PL leaving all the food in the church meeting room floor without making sure it was taken care of. Maybe I didn't understand CNY correctly, but it sounds like the food was just left on the floor for church to figure out. That wouldn't go over very well in our church and it certainly is not showing good servant leadership at the patrol, troop and community levels.

Without getting into quoting the Committee Handbook, the committee’s only proactive responsibility is to provide a Scoutmaster who believes in the Troop vision and builds a program toward that vision. All other committee actions are reactive to the Scoutmaster's program. I’m a little uncomfortable with your troop because it appears your committee is very proactive toward the process of reaching the vision and I don't see where your SM even fits in your program. Take it from someone who used to have the responsibility of fixing broken units, “a program cannot serve two mastersâ€Â. I think your unit adults need training to understand each others roles better. If you were in our district, I would request the District Trainer give the Scoutmaster Specific and Committee Specific courses to your unit requesting all the volunteers to attend. Then I would ask the group to sit down and define the program vision and the specific responsibilities in the process for reaching that vision. Barry