Eagledad

Well as someone who has worked at both the district and council level, I will say you don't have near enough information on this troop to know if it is a bad troop. The best I could say from my experience that it is likely not a boy run troop. That in of itself is a good reason to look around, but it's not like boy run programs are the majority and easy to find. Most if not all troops don't follow all the rules, it's just a matter of where each unit feels they can enhance their program by crossing a line. Strict uniform code? Please! Very common and I even found over the years many leaders here justifying their so-called boy run program with full uniforms. All I can say is I have never seen a fully uniformed boy run program. And as far as condemning the retesting at conferences, go back to some recent young Eagle discussions and read how some say they will ensure their scouts are stamped into the eagle they think they should be. I am amazed how we sometimes turn things around to justify our desires. Barry

This sounds like the troop culture, so it's a Scoutmaster issue. What your son needs is a true Scoutmaster Conference where the SM has a heart to heart discussion about your sons experience, not a test of skills. He may not get that in this culture. So my suggestion is for him to request a BOR so he can explain his struggle there. But I think he is likely to get the "this is how we do it" answer. Honestly you have not described a bad troop, just one that has high expectations and accountability. It doesn't sound very boy run, but a troop like that may be rare in your area. I agree that your son needs to take a lead on this, but a parent also has a right to understand the program. You can be inquisitive without being a demanding helicopter parent. Yes, thinking about, I agree with others that your son needs to talk with SM. He could start by asking the SPL to help him. Barry

Correct. I said several times that when leaders try to keep parents away from the scouts that it leads to leaders being asked to leave and/or litigation. But those go without saying, so even have to mention them. There is a difference between making parents jump through hoops to keep them away and just trying to provide a safe environment. By the way, have the rules changes so that drivers have to get training and registration? What kind of training other than YP? Because I felt you turned it into a anti parent discussion. I was wondering, the adults are by the fire relaxing when one of the parents insist on going to talk with the scouts. How are you going to react and why? And that's what happens in my troop, so I have no idea why the comment. Because it's not important how your troop functions, it's important that everyone understands why.

When parents aren't allowed, secret is implied whether or not it is the case.

That is exactly right. It is not your problem. Adults do act as expected when they are given expectations. consistent bad adult behavior is directly a result of consistant bad unit leaders. Adults go do what adult go do and the scouts go do their thing. The SM shouldn't worry about the adults unless they do interrupt the boys part of the program, then the SM guides and teaches the adults how it works. But they will and do get it. Oh there is the occasional odd parent that doesn't follow the guidelines and they have to be treated different, but that isn't the usual normal behavior of parents. By the way, I have observed a little of the litigation side. I wasn't kidding when I said holding back from parents can lead to ligation. Go ahead and speak to those lawyers you refer to and they will tell you that the vast majority of the situations are caused by unit leaders not being open to the parents. I know that sounds a little funny, but there is something about being a scout leader that makes us feel like we can help boys grow by not telling their parents everything. It's all with good intentions of course, but it can backfire when mom finds out that something happened that they feel is important. I advise all leaders in training to never hold or promise to hold ANY secrets between scouts and their parents. A lot of leaders confuse being a mentor to being a best friend and it gets them in trouble. Barry

I've never seen it. What you say about parents is stupid. As if adults can't act as adults and there is no training or guidience given. I imagine you will come up with all kinds of silly strawmen barriers to keep the parents away, but in the end you just don't like adults watching your program and judging the way you run the troop. Why? So what does a troop of 50 scouts do with the parents after they have driven for four hours? Barry

Thanks Old Ox,but I was there before, during and after the traditions were forced to change. In the old days (ol about pre mid 80s) the Ordeal was kept unofficially secret by its members because it raised the level of its organizations mystic. True, officially it was not secret, but the traditions of keeping the Ordeal agenda a secret as well as change the method of the Call Out (TAP Out) was forced by parents who took offense at the appearance a secret organization. I remember the debate well. I appreciate you reciting the official stand, but the defense, but it doesn't reflect actual history of it's traditions. Which gets back to my point, keeping parents away from the troop program will not be tolerated very long in this day and age. Yes, I have seen the lawyer card raised more than once over similar situations. As I said, if adults can't run a boy run program with 300 ft seperation, then they won't be able to do it with 3 miles, 30 miles or 300 miles either. There is no reason a boy run program can't develop to full maturity with parents on a camp out. Barry

Stosh, you have what, 5 scouts? If a troop can't do boy run with 300 ft separation, then what's the point. Scouts certainly don't know the difference. You have always been anti parents on camp outs since you been here. Yes I find that strange. That is a wrong attitude in this day and age. Just look at OA as the model that had to change when they were accused of being a secrete program. It's impractical to expect a troop to move 50 scouts around with all ASMs. It's even more impractical to say no to parents who want to see the program in action. In fact, it is suspicious. That's a different situation from helicopter parents and adults wanting to play Boy Scouts. If you can't run a boy run program with parents in the area, then maybe you aren't as good as you are always bragging to be. Barry

I'll repeat myself stosh, unit leaders who try to keep parents away from observing the programs usually find themselves being asked to leave. Council doesn't want to risk even the hint of an abusive situation. I would and have given warnings to leaders who had the attitude of keeping parents away. Litigation is knocking at your door. Barry

Thanks Calico As a Cub Scout Leader, I didnt have a lot of respect for Den Chiefs as a result of our experiences with them in the pack. There was no training back then and our Pack simply did not know how to use them. So when I became a Scoutmaster, I neither encouraged nor discouraged scouts to take on the responsibility. However, another adult who came from a different pack experience convinced me that with the proper training, Den Chiefs were quite valuable to dens and packs. She wanted to guide the Den Chief program in our troop. She told me she would insure our scouts and the Den leaders would be trained together to learn of each other expectations. So we got into the business of Den Chiefs. I also felt that first year scouts were too immature for the responsibility, so we waited until the scouts were 12. Anyway, from our experiences, I started to notice that Patrol Leaders with a Den Chief experience were initially much better leaders of their patrol. I observed Patrol Leaders with the Den Chief experience work side by side with PLs who didn’t have the experience and I found that the Den Chief experience gave the boys confidence in dealing with groups as well as individuals for working as a team. Nothing scared them and they had their patrols functioning quickly. After a couple years of watching the advanced leadership skills from scouts with Den Chief experiences, I started encouraging scouts to consider the responsibilities and I took their experiences a lot more seriously in the leadership development. Enough so that I included the value of Den Chiefs in our Council Youth Leadership Development training when I became the Council Youth Leadership Chairman. One of the advantages a Den Chief gets for practicing leadership is he is automatically respected as the dominant scout simply by his age and stature of being a boy scout. New Patrol Leaders often struggle to get footing when they start because they are suddenly leading peers who are older and more experienced or are their best friends. Den Chiefs struggle less encouraging the Cubs to follow direction where as a new Patrol Leader sometimes lack any confidence. By the time a Den Chief gets a Troop POR, he has developed the confidence to lead without the fear of lacking respect of the peers. As stosh says, leading is serving and Den Chiefs learn that rather quickly. Of course there are also the benefits of Den Chiefs bringing in new scouts and all that, but I’m more anal about scout growth and I grew to find the Den Chief experience to be a very good step in a scout’s growth. Barry

The reason 20th Century Wood Badge was created because the old course was taken out of context by unexperienced adults using the format as a model for their own program. Adults who lacked a scouting experience as a youth started guiding their scouts to run a Wood Badge lite troop where the adults ate with the patrols and the Kudu horn was blown at openings. It became enough of a problem that National blew up the old Wood Badge course and started over with a whole new curriculum. This adult is trying to do the same thing. My experience is that this isn’t helicopter parents wanting to hang around and watch and protect their kids, it’s the kid in the adult wanting to play Boy Scout. Most every troop has them, but the leaders are responsible for teaching these adults how boy run program works and why they don’t use some of the ideas that would interfere with the vision of the program. While it is true the role modeling is the primary method for boys to learn and grow in the troop program, the objective is for the "scouts" to be role models for scouts. The troop leadership needs to guide the adults as to how giving boys independence of making choices without the influence of adults creates an environment of growth and trust. A patrol of adults standing next to them doesn’t allow for scouts to feel that independence. I disagree that the troop should discount the parents and keep them away. Units that I’ve seen do that usually end up kicking out a few adults including the Scoutmaster and starting all over. There is fine line between a program that encourages enough distance to give scouts room, and a program that forces parents away from the activities. Council leaders also discourage it because of the abuse risk. And let me just say once parents start to feel suspicious of the troop leadership, threats of litigation aren’t far behind. A better approach is allow the parents to attend the activities, but at a distance the boys don’t feel the pressure of making decisions based on what they think the adults want. It’s really not that hard. 100 feet, 200 feet, even a half mile in some activities. Even at summer camps our troop typically puts the adults in a completely different camp site to give the scouts their distance. It might just be across the road, but it is enough for the scouts to feel independent. Be respectful to this adult, but tell him no thanks and teach him why. Barry

These things happen and you just have to chalk it up to a learning experience. What is the parents beef? You may not have handled it the best, but their son behaved badly. I like qwazses reply, but I have personally witnessed two SMs get in a fist fight over something more trivial, so I think you handled him fine by letting heads cool. Now a scout can receive both a SM conference and BOR without having to sign the book. You presented both as pass fail, but scouts can receive several SMC and BORs between rank advancements. Don't look at them as pass/fails, but as opportunities to listen and guide. I personally asked my scouts why they felt I should sign off the SM Conference requirement forcing them to justify advancing. In this case, I would have even suggested he take some time to think about it and call me when he was ready. Barry

This is how we do it. But I've implied several times that we don't use rank to drive the program. Each scout has different dreams, ambitions and desires from the scouting program, so rank would actually limit many scouts from parts of the program like leading a project. I would be surprised if a scout in our troop had reached 1st Class without leading some kind of project. We also used service projects to train new adults to how a boy run troop works. They are basically guided to the skill of stepping back instead of stepping forward. Because we do so many service projects of some type, the Eagle projects tend to be pretty big and complicated. I personally don't like that because it can be a lot more than the intent of what the project is trying to prove. But the scout usually get them done. I guess because they have done so many in the troop.

As a SM, I was not so concerned with the skills of new scouts as I was their confidience to camp their first overnight without an adult in the tent. I agree with Stosh, have fun. You want enough structure so that scouts aren't sitting around bored, but not so much structure that, well that they are bored. I beleive the GTSS allows scouts to boat with their parents. At least that was how we interpreted it 20 years ago. There is also fishing, hiking, biking, whiffle ball, fire building and on and on. Call the park service and ask them if there is any service project they could do. Our Webelos built owl houses with material provided by the park service and then had to hike in the woods to hang them up. But the thing about nature is that some kids get so little of it, just being there can take a boy to all sorts of adventures. I remember our Webs having great fun playing in the stream chasing crawdads. So much fun to do, so little time. If you want to insure that the trip has a scouting flavor, do a small Flag ceremony in the morning and evening. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

“â€ÂBrownie troops and Cub Scout dens can do the very same drive the following week and show the same level of leadership. What are you doing in your units to make these projects eagle worthy? CMM/SMMâ€Â†“â€ÂTotally AGREE! - There's a big difference between a service project and an Eagle Project. One being leadership. Stoshâ€Â†“â€ÂAnd what makes one assume that by shear determination of his personality, this young man didn't lead? "He's a remarkable young man." Stoshâ€Â†Always entertaining Stosh

Just curious, since you are starting all over, how many messages are you showing at the top of the page? Barry

Servant leadership is not an expectation? Barry

Until recently, you would hav seen "Eagledad" on my car.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm trying to give you and opening to explain how your style is different from the example you presented. Your answer is training. All troops train stosh. Personally I don't know how scouts can perform a duty without knowing what their duty is. I'm very confused why you seem to shy away from expectations. We all have expectations all our life. Most adults who struggle with leadership development today don't struggle with expectations, they struggle with accountibiltity. It’s easy to say we train them then send them off in the woods for six months and wait to see what happens. But I know that isn’t how it works. Those of us who have been there and done that have styles and techniques for developing a program the gives scouts’ Maximum growth. What does stosh do to get maximum growth. Without using personal examples or experience, how would explain your preferred style of leadership development. Maybe a little less vague than train them than send them off without any expectation. Barry .

What I read is that stosh scouts perform better at PORs because they are given expectations, is that right? Barry

As I've said before, around 75% of volunteers never had a youth scouting experience. The BSA has evolved toward adults being ignorant of the youth perspective of scouting. Nobodies fault, but how do we fix that?

Well actually the PORs are supposed to develop and encourage character, fitness and citizenship. I had a discussion with my dad about leadership and Eagles and he said that when he was a scout in the 40's, the Eagle represented character more than it represented leadership. Being a Scout in of itself represented leadership. Character was so important that judges were used by some councils for EBORs. Who knows why the BSA started requiring PORs as part of the Eagle requirements, but it has really muddied the water. If we were each asked privately the traits of leadership, I'm sure the answers would differ a lot. As a result, scouts outside of our troop transfering from other troops have been set up to fail. I'm not sure judging character was all that much easier. Barry

And I think that pretty much explains your cynical view of the scout program. You are out to prove Stosh Scouts is the best program, not Boy Scouts. You make it up as you go along then call it Scouting. Oh, you aren't the first, Kudu has a big jump. But Stoshs and Kudus come and go and leave little for others to follow and carry on. Remember Stosh, the saying goes that one man’s “boy run†is another man’s door to being the puppet master. What is rule number three of your three basic rules? "If the SM doesn't like the way scouts do the first two rules, the SM takes over." From my perspective, "THAT IS NOT BOY-LED, it is called SM-LED! The SPL is a position for assisting the PLs to run their programs. They come off as the scout in charge by outsiders because they stand in front of the troop during assemblies. But a mature troop guides and teaches their SPL to serve the PLs by helping them grow from their experience. The SPL can be a teacher, guide, mentor and cheerleader. The SPL should be a senior scout who has the experience and knowledge to help the PLs grow in areas like leadership, followship, meeting organization, group organization and servant leadership. In most cases the SPL should do most of the teaching by simply setting an example. The SPL should run his meeting exactly the way the PLs should run Patrol Corners. The SPL works personally with the PLs exactly the same as they should work with their patrol. The SPL is a servant to the PLs and needs serve exactly the same way the PLs are servants to the patrols. A good SPL will let the situations come to him and then attend to the situation by guiding the scout to create a solution and act. Most new PLs struggle with leadership because while their position gives them the authority, they may not have yet earned the respect of his fellow scouts as being the leader. That is where the SPL should help the PL grow in the position by using tools like conflict resolution, rosters, and delegated shared tasks among the team. I found my new SPLs struggle to just stand and wait for situations, they want to dive into everything because they know the answers and have yet to develop the patience to let the other scouts figure it out. Hmm, sound like adults, doesn’t it. But the SPL is a growing position just as much as any other POR. Who should the SPL use as an example of his responsibilities, the adults and more senior scouts. Where many Troops fail with the SPL is they put an inmature scout in the position who doesn’t have the skills to help the PLs grow in their positions. So yes many times they end up dictating what the SM tells them because neither the SM nor the SPL really know what to do. But that is not a flaw of the SPL position, it is a flaw in the adults not yet understanding scout growth. These are common skills that just about all troops and ALL adults have to learn to develop. How do we adults learn? By doing and then evaluating the results and changing to do it better next time. Kudus and Stoshs are rare, the rest of us aren’t born as perfect scout leaders. We have to humbly learn and grow. The SPL like the JASM are wonderful growth opportunities for scouts who have reached that level of maturity. When the adults start to use the positions from that perspective growth instead instead of requirements for rank, then all the PORs seem to step up in growth and the troop as a whole becomes much more mature. A troop is only as good as its senior leadership. You can observe that in every troop. Look for it at next summer camp. You will see what I mean. But the real trick is that true growth comes from the young scouts observing the older scouts in action. Barry

We try to keep the Den Leaders out of the pack activities committees like B&G, Pinewood, summer swim, and so on. And in most cases the chair of each activity recruits a couple assistants for the purpose of heading the activity the next year. Traditionally in our pack the 2nd year Webelos parents plan and run the B&G with help of the 1st year Webelos parents. You are right, planning the same basic annual Pack calendar makes it a lot easier. Barry