Eagledad

You have some basic problems like not building a process for the vision. Another is the flaw of assuming that scouts will figure it out even without resources for a solution. As the program matures, the scouts gain enough experience to move the program, but it is difficult without any experience. Some support is needed to get momentum going. During our annual planning, all patrols are expected to provide equal input for ideas. That included the adults. Adults have a lot of experience and to ignore them is not doing justice for the program. Resources, scouts need to learn adults are great resources. Also, there is a saying "train for success, prepare for failure". For programs to mature to the next level, there is usually some kind of skills development required to move beyound the present level if for no other reason than building some confidience. Leading a planning session is not easy for adults, much less kids. But adults usually aquired some skills in their lifetime to lead successful meetings, where as the boys have not yet had such experiences. Are they getting any kind of training for leading meetings or are they just told to get in there and get it done. Even the SPL handbook has some guidelines to running a meeting. Train for success is not anti boy run, it is life. I usually tested my scouts on how much was being expected of them by asking them if they were having fun. If it wasn't fun, then I demanded we change. Scouting has got to be fun, all of it. Barry

I have never seen a full free time campout go well because the boys simply get bored. Sometimes the Patrols try it and wish they had planned something. But then our campouts aren't advancement sessions either, they are usually doing something a lot of fun that has them wanting to be in the sack after campfire. Thats not to say they don't have free time, I believe campouts should be at least 50% free time. If a scout wants to work on skills for advancement, that would be the time. Barry

Yes, these moms can be a challenge. One of our Den Leader moms caused so much trouble that we restricted her from troop activities. She was extreme and scary, but most moms are kind and just well meaning. We had one mom that love the idea of boy run and what her son was accomplishing from the program. But she was a classic helicopter mom and was always calling me. I give here credit, she knew to always asked me first instead of reacting to her instincts and she always followed my directions. She admitted her hovering problem and was always kind and opologetic. When he was 17, her son asked me to present and pin his Eagle at his ECOH. I told the family that was a tradition for the dad, but they insisted. I don't know who was honoring me more, mom or her son. Now that I understand there are younger scouts involved, the situation is much more complex. You seem to have a handle on it dfscott. Barry

Ah! I see. I was thinking this was a patrol of just older scouts, my bad. Barry

Well I have to admit there is something wrong here, the parents of older scouts should know by now to let the troop handle this situation. These aren't boys anymore, these guys are adults acting like boys. And I have to agree with stosh, it appears the adults are treating them like boys as well. The parents should be disappointed in their sons and want them to learn a lesson here. Barry

I don't know what it is about older scout patrols that pull this stuff, but they are at the age where it's not your concern. If they are going to learn from it, you need to just wait it out and let them come to you, or whatever they do. Like MattR said, we take a little extra for just such learning experiences. Barry

Why can't your younger scouts go on high adventure with the older scouts like in our troop? You keep presenting mixed age patrols as if they don't work. They have been working very well for over a hundred years. Same age patrols came as a result of Webelos crossing over in groups. The BSA only started that about 30 years ago. The only way same age patrol can mature is with outside patrol influence as you showed in your examples of summer camp. Growth comes from the more experienced members in mixed age patrols. It's pretty simple. All the scouts in the same age patrol have the same experience, more importantly, lack of experience. So growth generallycomes from outside the patrol in a more instructional teaching style. Growth in mixed age comes more by observing, which is less intrusive to the scouting experience. This is not to say there isn't a place for same age patrols. Your troop of first year scouts is an example of no choice in styles. Your scouts are forced to seek outside instruction for them to grow as your summer camp post proved. There are also times when NSPs function better as same age as well. But most unknowingly controlling adult also favor same age patrols because it keeps them closer to the scouts and their activities. Same age allows them influence their activities with their instruction and reflections. Most Eagle mills are same age patrols for this very reason. Control.

We started using a method I learned from another Scouter who taught me a lot about boy run scouting to use what we call adventure crews. Now he actually does use Venture Crews in his troop, but we discussed a way of using his method without our troop needing to start a crew. The way it works is that any scout or adult can start an adventure patrol for the purpose of doing a single activity. Once the activity is through, the crew dissolves. This is how we organize our High Adventure Crews, but adventure patrols can be used for anything. We had one scout organize a crew to do a service project for a nursing home. We had another one for spending a weekend at Six flags. There are no age requirements other than the restrictions set by the BSA like a Philmont crew, so most of our crews are mixed age with all ages. There must be scout crew leader and he must present to the committee a description of the activity with a list of adults who will be part of the crew. We found that getting adults first separates dreamers from those who will actually move forward with the activity. Scouts stay in the regular patrols and must have crew meetings outside their patrol activities. Works very well and we averaged about four crews a year when I was SM. I’m not sure how many they average now. As for OA, our troop had the most active scouts of any troop in the OA. I’m not sure why because I didn’t push it at all. But I can say our most active older scout leadership generally were the active scouts in OA. My last SPL was at the same time in some leadership on a Venturing Crew and also in OA all at the same time. And to top that off, he planned a week long back packing trip for his crew in Montana, which had always been a dream of his. He was an amazing scout, but I shouldn’t have been surprised, he went to MIT the next year on a full scholarship.

Been there and done that with my younger son. He didn't go for the Eagle and I supported him with his decision, but it wasn't without the struggles you are experiencing now. All I can say is that I can look myself in the mirror today because my now 26 year old son still looks back at his scouting experience with great fondness and has zero regrets with his choice of earning the Eagle. Barry

I am so very impressed. You are going to make a great Scoutmaster. I admit that I’ve grown frustrated with some members on this forum who talk all day long of a patrol method and boy run, but separate advancement, rank and even uniform as something the adults must control to maintain some kind of imaginary integrity of the program. That means they don’t understand or really trust boy run and patrol method. You in short said, if the adults build the Patrol Method part of the program correctly, everything else will follow and the adults should not have to interfere in any of the Eight Methods for scouts to grow to their full maturity. That is exactly right. Does anyone here have the courage to never push a scout to any rank? Could they possibly never even mention the word Eagle trusting that the program will do all the talking for them? That should be the goal. We shouldn’t need to worry about the quality of Eagles if the program builds quality scouts. Not all scouts want to be Eagles, so why should they have to suffer under the dreams of the adults? Shouldn’t every scout be the best he can be of his dream? The adults’ responsibility is to develop a program where scouts are free from adult influence of making independent decisions. If a scout chooses to be a Tenderfoot for the next three years, it shouldn’t be the adults concern so long as he is continually growing. The adults’ only concern is to insure that the program has the structure to challenge “all†boys at “all†ages to work and reach their dreams. If you were to interview 11 year old boys and ask them to honestly say what they want from the troop, you might hear 1 boy in 20 say “Eagleâ€Â. But adults put so much pressure on boys to be Eagles, they say Eagle just because they know that is what the adult wants to hear. Now, if you interview a 15 year old in a mature boy run troop and ask him his desire of the program, at least half will speak of the Eagle. The reason is because a good troop constantly challenges a boy to grow and that growth teaches boys to look farther ahead to dreams he once never thought possible. These troops don’t send 11 year olds to leadership development training so they can be a 12 year old Patrol Leader. They let the scout grow in little steps through a fun program to develop the confidence of working as part of the team and learning skills that give him independence to survive by himself in unusual situations. I have often said that the best way to measure the quality of the troop program is by observing the older scouts. Do this at your next summer camp. Older scouts are the results of how the program develops the younger scouts. To many adults think of scouting as being over at age 14, but in reality that is the when it becomes the most fun and most rewarding for the scouts because that is when they get to be adults. That is also the hardest part of the program for adults to develop. The most successful troops are obvious in that scouts are excited to be in the program because they feel good about themselves. The troop should be the one place where the introverted scout is recognized by his abilities that contribute to the Patrol. His weakness should not be a restraint on his quest to his dream.. My challenge to all here is develop a program that creates Eagles without EVER EVER mentioning the “E†word to a single scout in the context of him reaching that goal. The program should take a boy to “his†dreams, not his “leaders†dreams. I can assure you such a program will make more Eagles than you could ever dream. But more important, all your scouts will be the best men of character and citizens of integrity. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Yep I agree. I find these advancement/skills/Eagles threads "very" interesting. Leaders here blather on and on to how a boy run program should work. But once they get into the details of advancements and skills, there sure is a lot of adult directing. And what is so amazing is they don't see it. This includes myself, but I learned while working at the district level that once we start judging other programs, we automatically become hypocrites. Barry

I think this concept is so very important and requires experience for most adults to understand. I certainly was humbled to learn and understand it myself. Just like everyone else in the world, all scouts are different in their goals, ambitions, desires and habits. Some scouts want to be the best and on top of the world, but most are satisfied with lesser objectives. If the adults judge success or failure of all scouts by the level of performance of the top performing scout, then the majority of scouts will never succeed with those adults. You see some of that here in the forum with the Eagle discussions. Kind of an ‘Eagles in other troops wouldn’t be worthy in my troop†attitude. At the same time, if the adults set only mediocre expectations for all the scouts, then you find the more ambitious scouts getting bored and moving on because they aren’t challenged mentally or physically. This is the main cause of troops who can’t maintain the older scouts. Many troops build their program around developing scouts’ skills (basically first class maturity), and leave it at that. Once scouts reach that maturity, they are only expected to take on the responsibility of making sure the younger scouts reach that maturity. Well that means the scouts repeat the same-ol same-ol over and over and the program never matures above the 13 year old level. Many adults call it babysitting because it has the appearance of scouts just leading scouts around keeping them out of trouble. But in reality, it is just a program that won’t mature beyond the prepubescent stage of life. Older scouts don't leave because they don't like working with younger scouts, they actually enjoy it a lot because it is an adult responsibility. Older scouts leave because they are so terribly bored. Adults need to grow to the concept that a mature program is one where there is no one set expectation for all scouts. Focus needs to be on individual growth with individual challenges and individual expectations. The “natural leader†who gets his greatest satisfaction needs to be challenged to grow in leadership skills that enhance his dreams for himself. A scout who is in a leadership positions but doesn’t have the same skills or vision should NOT be held to the same standards of that natural leader. Instead he should only be held to a standard greater than when he started and has obtained growth. He should be expected to grow. As Hedgehog points out, scouts should feel safe that while they will be challenged, failures are normal experiences when striving to succeed. A scout who puts out effort will never be considered a failure. Folks here would be amazed by how many scout leaders have approached me asking how to remove a poor performing scout from his POR. Since I don’t have personal experience with their situation, I only ask them if the scout has shown any growth from the experience. I don’t know if the adults expectations are reasonable, but surly there is something the adult can find in praising the scout efforts. If not, then it is the adults fault for allowing the scout to be in such a position. Once your scouts develop a trust that the troop culture is one where failure from hard work, as well as success, are considered positive growth experiences, then the troop program will mature. Boys who normally don’t risk losing their self-confidence by failing in front of their peers will take that scary step forward in the unknown to at least give it a try. Once the program reaches that level of maturity, scouts will stay in the program because it is the one place in their lifestyle where they actually can achieve dreams. Barry

Do a search on Coke Bottle Rockets. Cheap and easy. It is an outdoor activity, but I did it in one meeting with my Webelos. It is a much fun to watch as it is to participate and you can shoot off as many rockets at the same time as you have launchers. BArry

Nice post Hedgehog. Barry

Behavior is shaped by the culture. Of course there lazy scouts just like there are type "A" scouts in all aged based, mixed age patrol method troop method programs. But if the culture somewhat supports older scouts sluffing off the work to young scouts, that is what they will do, But do all troops do that? No of course not. My experience is that this kind of culture comes from an adult driven program because the adults drive the program leaving older scouts to just sit around. Which is also the reason I don't care for age based patrols. Scouts grow by watching others and when most of who they watch has the same experience as themselves, the adults have step in one way or another to push more growth. But there is a different problem with old scouts when making dramatic troop program changes I didn't mention to Sentinel because I didn't want to throw a lot at him at once. But since the discussion was taking a tall tails route, I better add my experience. Basic rule is that older scouts don't change. Pretty much the culture that a scout learns before puberty is set in after. I have yet to see a program successfully change a culture like going from troop method to patrol method with the older scouts buying in. Especially going from adult run to boy run. Change comes from the younger scouts. This has proven out to be so consistent that now I suggest to troop leaders plan at the beginning to split the program with the younger scouts functioning under the new program and leave the older scouts alone as best they can so they stay with the program. There is some value with the older scouts helping out as leaders, but in general, they will rebel and the adults will find them a drag on the program. Every set of leaders gives the older scouts a try and I’m all for that. If they can find a way of doing it, we all gain from the knowledge. But usually the adults eventually just go to the younger scouts to make the change. Its due to our natural instinct. By nature we human learn most of our behavior by watching others around us until we reach puberty. Then after puberty we go into survival mode using what we learned. We are built that way to survive back before we had schools and teachers. We instinctivly watch our parents to learn how to be productive (or not) adults. Same goes with the troop culture, what a scout learns before age 14 he uses after age 14, good and bad. "They know they can dupe the young guys!" For Pete sake Stosh, somebody might actually believe you. Barry

It is important that you keep the adults from back sliding, but what is back sliding. The only way a dramatic change can happen is for the adults to want it to happen. And for them to want it to happen, they need to know what they want to happen. I’ve helped a few troops through this process and the first thing was getting the adults to identify just what they want. What is the vision of the patrol method the adults want to see from the scouts. If the adults are not of the same mind, they will eventually be confusing the scouts by opposing each other. Also, if the adults don’t know where they are going, how will they know if the scouts are going in a positive direction? Boy run troops can look completely chaotic from the outside, so if you didn’t know what you were looking at, you might be incline to yell stop. And it is OK for the adults to change a little bit as well. You might start out thinking new boy patrols is the way to go only to see that they don’t like to camp out because it’s not any fun. Something has to change. Age base patrols, mixed age patrols, which works better? Are the scouting growing, are they having fun? I usually ask the troop to issue Patrol Leaders Handbooks and SPL Handbooks to the adults and scouts so that they all had the same program plan. Then the scouts are asked to run the program from the books with the adults observing. When the boys run into a kink in the road, they sit down and discuss it with the adults and together come up with a solution using the hand books as best they can for a guide. The books give the scouts independence from the adults, but also give the adults kind of a picture of what they can expect from the scouts. Now whether or not you use those books for a different plan, it is very important “to start simpleâ€Â. I can promise you that the program you start with today will not be the program you see a year from now. A lot of changes will be made to reach your vision. Usually it’s the adjusting more than the adults. I’m not really sure what you mean by patrol method, but that usually means to get each patrol to function independently. Basically the PL should be leading the patrol with as little input from outside the patrol as possible with the eventual goal of becoming completely independent. One last thing that many adults don’t respect at the beginning of these kinds of changes, “The adults need to learn more faster than the scouts so as not to get in the scouts way.†The adults will find that challenge to be a lot of work at first. They need to evaluate if the patrols are progressing toward the vision or regressing. Does age based patrols encourage more growth or mixed age patrols? Why? What needs to change for better performance? I watched a troop lose 15 of its 30 new scouts in the first three months because the adults just weren’t ready for the troop to become that big. They tried to force the old program to work with triple the number. They had to evaluate where the program was failing and adjust to meet the needs of the scouts and to progress toward the vision. If you have the will to see this through, you will reap the rewards of watching hundreds of boys growing into men of character and leaders of integrity. There is very little in life that tops that. You will love this scouting stuff. Barry

Yes he could, so why would an adult ever need to a scout he is out of uniform?

How would a scout know? Barry

You use one personal experience to shut down a troop for one flaw in their program. You guys need to walk a mile in the DE's shoes and really see how programs are run. I can assure that every program including the great Stosh has red flags. There is no worse action than over reaction. You don't know enough about this troop to shut it down. Barry

It's interesting to me that you don't view rank advancement as fun. Or that "fun" doesn't include rank advancement. Barry