Eagledad

Yes, that is another example of bad form. These are examples of pride vs humility. My scouts would say that I'm big into humility because the trait is required to be a cheerful servant to others. I was delighted to see Sentinel express a form of humility when he said they would have to just agree to disagree. He didn't give up anything, he just bowed out when the discussion had reached it's end. At some point when it has become obvious we can no longer further our opinion and be a cheerful servant at the same time, we humbly relent, but without giving up our opinion or beliefs. Agreeing to disagree is the humble out. The hard part is not letting our pride drag us into a place where nobody benefits. That is why I’m big into the scout law. I enjoy good intellectual or civil discussions because they allow us to express ourselves without feeling intimidated. Sometimes we are wrong, can we learn that without getting put down. But a civil discussion does require a great deal of discipline, and as you point out an eloquent use of words is not necessarily intellectual. But the main point of humility is that your every action toward others is for the good of the others, not yourself. How would these discussions flow if every attempt of our words was to serve the audience? Maybe it would allow us just enough pause to just consider what the other person is actually saying. Do I fail in my attempts to make a point, most certainly. Stosh's misunderstood my words so badly that it would take a weeks worth of typing to correct his misunderstanding. It easier to just let him have the last word. There was a time that this forum was a great resource to help scouters improve their programs and it had a huge following of many hundreds. The forum lost that following when several folks started intimidating others through condescending attacks. I think I'm being fair in saying that. I would like to think we could back to day when the scouter forum was the great resource of helping unit leaders. That is why I'm still here. Barry

Well done CP. Simulating an aggressive condescending tone to represent to the forum exactly the attitude of those he claims to be offended by. Even better, CP cleverly models a hypocritical threatening nature of being unfriendly, patronizing, and aggressive at the weak when adults are supposed to be the scout’s best models for showing scout law like behavior in all situations. In fact, quite cleverly CP represents what some might suggest is the bullying style tendency of hiding behind a key-board while being aggressive. CP is just showing us an example of what Sentinel is saying that if leaders want to flex their adult muscle against the weaker less mature youth, there is little to stop them except being in control of their emotions. Certainly CP doesn’t really believe the scout law shouldn’t be in play at all times. Of course mature adults of character can converse their opinions without trying to belittle and intimidate a point of view. So we can certainly assume that CP wouldn't act in the way he suggest because the action could be misunderstood as aggression and create more harm than the youths act that offended him. For those of us who had been approached by lawyers representing parents who thought the unit leaders style of guiding their son was less than, oh let’s say less than scout like, we can relate to the humility of the consequences of emotions directing actions. Personally CP, I’m more impressed with adults who can express their opinion with impact without using dissenting dialoged. But we can assume you were doing it to show us how complicated this subject can be. Good job. By the way CP, I’m sure you would agree that we would both enjoy meeting in person and learning more about each face to face as equals. Expressing one’s opinion face to face, that is the real test of a man of character, wouldn’t you say. Barry

Umm, yes. Getting scouts to gang up with you is how to ease the lonelyness. I concede I am not expert in behavior psychology, but I learned through the years that giving these scouts responsibilties that gave them a positive image from the other scouts changed they way they acted out toward others. Worked in most cases, but not all. Barry

You are right, most of the time the bully is the loneliest guy in the room and doesn't know of any other way of easing that pain. We have had a few scouts that behaved badly just to get some attention from the adults. Barry

While I like what you said, sometimes bantering occurs during the build of the trust. The difference between bantering and bullying is the motivation of the heart. That can be measured by the scout law. Barry

This subject comes up now and then and I don't usually get too involved because it embarrasses me to see many of us have lost common sense and have become helicopter adults. There are some scouters who actually believe in their heart that singing happy birthday to a scout hurts him more than the bond of his brothers congratulating him. Barry

What are the SMs saying now? The question was being asked and is still being asked by many thousands of SMs because it is part of the Law and Oath. Barry

Pot roast with potatoes, carrots and onions in the Dutch oven is very nice. Needs to cook all day, but it is easy (dump everything in with water and a package of onion soap) and very good. Barry

I moved to two 1.5 hour meetings a month when I was a Webelos leader. But I had 16 scouts and needed to divide the meeting up into several activities so that scouts didn't have time to get bored. It worked very well for me. Barry

Man has not proven that humans came from a frog, dog or even a monkey. Just because man can simulate it in ideal lab conditions doesn't mean otherwise. It's interesting NJ of how we think differently, when i read how God created the earth and gave responsibility to man, I don't see mans arrogance. Instead I see God as the perfect engineer who created everything in a logical sequence for a self perpetuating life. It's just that free will corrupts. Free will without omniscience is like rust taking over machinery. Barry

I will tell you how we did it, you can pick and choose what works for you. By the way, if I were you, I would include the Tigers. Anyways, we met with all the Tiger families as soon as we recruited them and asked two families to sign up for one month to call and brief the families of the schedule. We actually had them meet us at the lake on a Saturday morning and provided equipment for them to fish and cooked them breakfast. If was intended to start them off with a fun activity while getting to know them. What I didn't expect were the memories of watching parents fishing with the sons for the very first time. It still brings tears. After eating, we met for a few minutes to ask the parents to pick their month to call, and them give a few very basic expectations or rules to set up their meetings, thing like we don't advise meeting at a home, and so on. Very brief meeting because we didn't want it to take away from the morning experience of fishing, pancakes and sausage. You can find something else, but starting off like that sure hooked a few families on the fence. We had no trouble getting enough dads to volunteer cooking and help fishing. We got one Tiger coordinator who was typically at one time was a Den Leader. I wanted a veteran that new the pack and scouting system. That person would go to all the committee meetings to keep up with the pack schedule and represent the Tigers. The Tiger Coordinator was the go to person for anyone that needed to ask a Tiger question. This was a huge burden taken off of the CM because I didn't have to keep track of who was the contact at that time. The coordinator was really their CM to some degree. They also helped the Tiger group build their schedule of the meetings which usually just meant communicating with the two adults who were responsible for communications that month. The coordinator just kept things running smooth. We gave the Tiger parents a few typical ideas of go-see-its and ask them to figure out which one they wanted at what time. We asked for an 2nd meeting as well, which could be a Pack meeting if they chose. All that we asked was that they not meet at a home because we found that the scouts go play in one room while the parents hung around in the other. while we didn't ask them to achieve a lot at the meetings, we did want the boys and adults together so they got to know each other better. Our objective was for two families doing the calling just so they would meet with the other parents and get to know their names. They were responsible for arranging the two meetings, but that was an easy task for two familes. Now we did ask the Tiger familes to participate in Blue and Gold, Pinewood Derby, and any other fun Pack activity like roller skate party. The main objective there was to expose the parents to how the pack works (fun stuff), so that when we did ask for volunteers, they had an idea of how small a job it really was. I was told a few years later that this idea worked very well because the adults weren’t nearly as apprehensive about volunteering as they might have been if approached early without really seeing the responsibility. About March, the Tiger Coordinator and I would go through the list of parents and try to pick out two good leaders. Part of the coordinators responsibility was to observe the parents enough to learn their styles. I then would find a moment to talk with them and ask them to consider the job. I let them think about it for a few days, then I would call them to schedule some basic trainings for Wolves. The training was really intended more as the committment. So by April, we typically had our Wolf leaders and we introduced then at our May campfire. I’m sure there is more here, but our objective was letting the parents ease their way into the program by letting them set up the go and see its and meetings to their schedule. We tried to take away every excuse parents typically had for not joining. The coordinator would follow by calling the parents responsible to make sure all was going well. There was never a need for the coordinator to call the whole list, just the parents for that month. If any issues came up with familes, the coordinator would bring it to me the SM or the committee. That rarely ever happened. I hope I’m not making this sound like a big job for the coordinator, I tried hard for that job to never be more than 1 hour a week, if that. We found that by January, the group had bonded enough to really start to enjoy the program. It was fun, but not overly appressive to their schedule. I found that every family we had by January typically started as a Wolf the next year. So if you can get them through the first four months, you got them for four more years. Oh, I guess five with the Lions. Sheesh. Now because you have Lions and Tigers, some of this may not work. You will have to figure out a plan. But trust me, leaders down the road will be thankful for your experience, whatever the results. As I said, I calculated Tigers double the work in the pack, I can’t imagine how the Lions are adding to the equation. I wish you the best in this because I know how much of your heart you are investing. Barry

I find myself in a strange place to be used as reference line of how one believes in their god. Specific to your statement, I don't sweat the small stuff, but I am in Pack's camp on this. Barry

Only two meetings a month worked very well for us. Just as you pointed out earlier, these parents are very busy and are actually relieved to not be so obligated. We invited the Tigers to fun pack activities so they were introduced to the pack as a whole, but we didn't invite them to typical Pack meetings until April so that they started getting used to next years routine. I usually had the next years leaders picked out and trained, so they started acting the position to get a feel for it. You got it right in looking at these early programs in the big picture of whole program, but don't let your fear of low recruiting drive your pack plan. You may not realize it yet, but in the Cub years, you are not recruiting the boys, you are recruiting the parents. That means the program MUST appeal to the parents schedule and lifestyle for them to give you their son. That is why requiring one meeting and one go-and-seek works so well for the five and six year olds. Our pack was one of two packs that split. The other pack followed the meeting every week and Pack meeting every month plan. They typically lost 60 % of their tigers by the end of the year. We retained 95 % of ours. And, we did not require anything from Tiger parents during their Tiger year. Burnout is a real problem, so delay adult responsibilities as long as possible. I am on record saying that I think the Tiger program run the way it is now is the Number ONE cause of families quiting the scouting program through the ages of 11 years old because it burns out the adults. Barry

Running the Tigers how you say the Lions are designed to be run are the suggestions I give National for the Tiger program back in 1998. Our Tiger program was very successful after we changed to those methods. But I still think both the Lions and Tigers need to be run that way, not just Lions. Tigers are no more mature than Lions. I have to smile a little at your comment of Lazy/misinformed Lion Cub Scout Leaders and Parents because those same adults were the cause of the Tiger program program as well. I guess they are a very loud group, but totally misinformed. I'm with you guys in spirit because I spent A LOT time trying to improves these programs. Dealing with National on the Tiger program was like paddling up Niagara Falls. Barry Barry

LOL Barry

All true stosh, but most people truly want to believe in God. The problem is that as badly as they want to get closer to God, they are afraid to read the Bible because they might find that God does not approve of some things they like in their lives (my wife questions my Harley all the time). I have deep compassion for these folks because they have put themselves in a tough spot. Ironically God, through the Bible, shows them how to deal with all that. But that first step is so hard. Barry

There are two types of people who use the bible for gain, those that want to serve the masses, and those that want to serve themselves. I have found that those who serve themselves only use the parts of the bible that suits their purpose. The Google search engine makes it very easy to pick and choose only those scriptures that give an advantage. But the meek only have themselves to blame, reading the bible has become a thing of the past. Predators take advantage of their ignorance and serve their will on them through their emotions because they don't have enough knowledge to resist with reason. Barry

In some classes I took in college, I learned that the average volunteer in volunteer run organizations give less than two years. Two years! And the BSA wants how many from us. I can't understand where National thinks this idea will work. I know that I was complaining about the Tiger program to them before the added more volunteers and more time requirements to that age group in 2000. I was the District Membership Chairman at the time and our pack leaders were really angry. I calculated that it took as man hours to manage the Tiger group as all the other age groups combined. Barry

What I will admit is that we only have to read the Bible to know when we are doing it wrong. Barry

Wow Fred, if we could go back into the archives, you would find several of my post that are almost word for word identical to yours. Only difference is that I was talking only of the Tigers because we didn't have Lions. I even predicted the loss of Troop age scouts (which came true) as a result of you guessed it, BURN OUT. What was my proposed solution, to add a kindergarten age and separate the first two years from the Wolves Tigers and Bears like the Girls Scouts do in their program. I hope you feel a little vindicated from my response because I feel vindicated reading your post. It's not like I didn't warn National about this several times. Many folks thought I just hated the Tigers but they couldn't see results of bringing in boys at such an early maturity. It changes the whole dynamic of the pack and burns out the adults along the way. The other problem that you will see is a greater loss of Webelos as a result of the burned out leaders. I spent more time trying to fix our Webelos leadership than I spent recruiting any other age group. One other thing, you kind of hinted at that recruiting at the first year is critical because you get most of your scouts and volunteers, so there is some concern that if you don't get your scouts at that age, your pack would suffer. But we had a pack that decided to not recruit at the Tiger age for the same reasons we are talking about here. I watched that pack and they did not suffer a numbers drop after five years. So, I conclude that the main problem of loosing scouts at the 5 and 6 year age is the maturity of the scouts. If you can recruit in the 2nd grade like the BSA use to do, that is a solid maturity where you will most likely keep the scouts and not risk as high of burnout with the adults during the Webelos age. I like your idea of splitting the meeting, but of course I suggested years ago, so I would. Give it a try, I would if I were in your shoes. I did a lot of different ideas from the BSA Tiger and WEbelos model to keep our scouts and we retained 95 percent of both age groups. National has this one wrong, so do what you have to do to get it right. Barry

Humans in the loop, ya I think that's fair. Barry

If one is supposed to have faith that God is omniscience and omnipotent and omnipresent, then one can consider that God is in control in what each individual requires for their individual growth. The hard part is making the first step to just do something. While many folks are critical of people using wrong interpretations, I find more often people are giving credit to God for their decisions without ever opening the bible. Things like "God says we are to love everybody, so I choose to.......". I consider ignorance more dangerous than misinterpretation because those people blindly follow their emotions without any balance of objectivity. Barry

I agree, it is risky. But maybe Moosebyterians could become the new hope for us all. Barry