Eagledad

Yah, that is pretty impressive. I look forward to future post. Barry

Well I know it seems compelling, but I don't think the economy has much play in the decline. I used to interview Webelos scouts and parents to learn why the families did or didn't crossover. I found the first response of families quitting weren't usually truthful because the reason was more complicated than a quick answer. Sports is typically the number one first reactionary or fake reason, but as I let them talk and open up about their Cub Scouting experience, the boys didn't enjoy the Cubs and just didn't see any fun in the future of scouting. The parents didn't want to hassle with it anymore. I have often said that Cubs is too long and burns out the adults resulting in a decline at all ages including Venturing. I could be wrong, but cost isn't that much different compared to other youth activities, so I have to believe these families are quitting for other reasons. As to what can be done to change scouting, I think there are some pretty good responses to changing scouting's image. Just how much marketing do we see on media for scouting anymore. How much recruiting is word of mouth? Barry

It was only a few days ago that Stosh suggested that Traditional Scouting was the wrong direction for running patrol method, so I'm not sure what this topic is all based from. We on the inside know where the program struggles and needs changes, but from the outside, the program as a whole is running against a big Pop Culture media ride where adventure requires little more physical or mental effort than turning on the TV and computer. Camping out doors is not appealing against video games. So scouting at the very least has an image challenge against technology. Go ask the average young teen what they would like to do next weekend and see how often fishing, hunting, hiking or camping comes up. At best you might get some biking in there somewhere. However, as I said, the culture is media driven. If National could and would spend the money required to saturate a young persons mind through media of a fun program that takes kids to part of the county they have never seen before, they might get somewhere. Barry

LOL, yah who knows how, where and when terms were made popular. We heard and learned the term back in 1995 by an backpacking guide. Not from scouting. But who knows where the they learned them. Barry

Probably true, but we learned term by LNT backpacking guides. Barry

Sumping is where the every single bit of food is consumed with the objective of leaving the cooking and eating utensils basically clean, basically. Then at the next meal time after a pot of water is brought to a boil, the cooking and eating utensils are dunked for sterilizing. Once sterilizing is done, cooking can be started using the boiled water. For the purpose of this discussion, sterilizing occurs first in the tasks of preparing and eating the meal instead of last and doesn't require additional water for clean up. It has drawbacks, like eating all the food even when it taste very bad (burned). Barry

Your system is good and appropriate, but has your crews tried sumping, because that method looses Zero water for cleaning? Our part of the country has been in a drought for several years and water can be hard to find in some areas. One gallon of water is pretty valuable. Barry

This is how I was trained and how we trained at least until 10 years ago. Sadly, it seems we have to tip-toe around the hierarchy to keep from offending each other anymore. We don't act like adults anymore because we don't have the maturity of adults, even in simple discussions like this. The SM reports to the CC because as was said, the buck has to stop somewhere. One of the suggestions we gave to all the units in our District is for the CC to attend SM Specific training so that they would have some understanding of the responsibilities they are responsible for filling. In my opinion. I also believe the CC is the most important person of the unit to attend Wood Badge because they need to understand the Vision and goals of the unit, as well as how to build a productive successful team. Which is the main objective of Wood Badge. How does the CC support the SM is they don't know objective of the program? I have found that most packs actually do function more under the CC being responsibile for the program by building a successful team including the CM who more or less does report to the CC. Troops don't do so well because the SM is seen as unit leader over everything. So they tend to be treated that way unless the SM is humble enough to respect the CC's responsibilties. Of course as others keep saying, the best units are the ones where the two leaders work closely together. Most of the time you find that adults in units where the two work well together are typically very unselfish. That is actually rare because volunteer organizations generally attract adults looking seeking attention and making a name for themselves. Barry

Nothing you said changes my point of taking care of the team and the members of your team. You write a lot of words excusing personal responsibilities, but it's as simple as the life motto of, "Do unto others as you would have them do to you." Barry

I don't see any of your sources conflicting with another. Some just get into more detail. However, maybe I'm wrong but I took this thread as a discussion of gray area between different adult leader positions, not a conflict with the Scoutmaster's (or Cub Master's) responsibilities. So in that light, what do the docs say about the Committee Chair and committee members? Isn't that really the gray area that Blw is suggesting? Barry

Come on Stosh, your troop has four scouts with you and your wife as the leaders, it's not typical. And it's not about whether or not adults were trained, it is about doing the right thing for group, which includes future replacement leaders. Trained or not, advising adults to not take responsibility for continuing a healthy unit is self-serving and a contradiction to servant leadership. It's just selfish. Also, training replacement leaders used to be part of training syllabuses, I'm assuming it still is. So we don't know if the trainers or the unit leaders failed. But the point is the same, take responsibility for present and future health of the unit. It's just the right thing to do. Barry

And here is what you said earlier:"Absolutely no difference. Now if Council/District would teach their adults appropriate leadership we wouldn't be having this discussion."" You basically said "It's not my problem". It has to start somewhere stosh, how about at home instead of waiting for someone else to tell us what to do. Barry

What do the job descriptions say? Barry

I'm also confused, how is this different from teaching the scouts to take care of their patrol or team members. (scratching my head on this one) Barry

You know, this is a good point. I don't remember if I intentionally did it for this reason, but I recruited and trained my replacement CM so I could be my younger son's Webelos leader. Good advice Slowderby. Barry

I see this as a different problem. Our troop relies on the scouts getting their guidance from documented resources because adult guidance is inconsistent and changes quickly. So the scouts are encourage to use the Scout Handbook. But what happens when the Handbook isn't always the best resource? The scouts fall back to what the closest adult recommends (requires) or another document. I remember once walking by a patrol and a scout yelling at me, "SM Barry, I can't remember the order of the three pot cleaning method?". And just as quickly before I could say it, he followed "Oh ya, look it up in the Handbook". I love it when a plan comes together. Of course Philmont and just about all the other High Adventure camps do it different because using three pots in the wilderness isn't practical. So now what is an independent thinking scout supposed to do? Barry

Right! As was said, " help them understand and work within the limits and capabilities of the troop." When we go down the path of lecturing other people of our personal values, we quickly find ourselves coming off insensitive and condescending of other peoples values. Just because we have a different opinion of the honor of Eagle doesn't mean we try to force the opinion on them. One of our first Eagles was scout who wasn't supposed to live past the age of four. He had been through 6 open heart surgeries by the time he joined the troop and had two more scheduled surgeries between age 16 and 20. His family put a very high value on every honor this young man accomplished in his life. There celebration for his Eagle was nothing less than a Wedding. Not far behind him was our Deaf Scout. His family was no less enthusiastic about his Eagle than the previous example for about the same reasons. When these families speak about their sons' accomplishment, they weep. They have grand dreams and don't want to be told that the celebrations to be equated to some quicky like running to the court house. In fact, they don't want your opinion at all. They just want to know the limitations of the troop so they can plan. Another one of our scouts has a family tradition of Eagles. It's almost a family trait and one the defines the men of this family. Your opinion isn't important. Allowing them to respect and celebrate the best they can within the limits of their dreams is all you have to do. So with respect we allow the families to deal with the details. We politely explain the limitations of the Troops and patrols then we stand back quietly and let the family do their thing. If they step beyond the limitations of the troop, then we with deep respect point out the limitations of the troop and then step back again. I have witnessed and participated in many ECOHs and have never seen an unreasonable request. I'm sure it occurs, but most families want to show as much respect for the troop as the troop has shown them. In this case, it appears it's prideful unit leaders that are the problem, not the family or scouts. Barry

That being said, Eagle can be very very important and personal for families for a variety of reasons; as important as a wedding in some cases. We have to be very careful to respect the families in these things and help them understand and work within the limits and capabilities of the troop. Barry

So how does Philmont instruct their crews now? It used to be boil a pot of water, dip all the eating and cooking utensils and then use the the water for cooking. Barry

Sorry, Troop Committee Chair. But I think you have have added more explanations to the whole situation since my question. Barry

Well I'm not an expert on laws, but if a SM called me to ask my experience with a scout wanting looking to join their troop, I would be clear in what they should expect without being critical or denigrating of the scout. As some already said, some units are better with these scouts than others, they need to know what to expect. All that being said, I'm with CP, it sounds like the ASM couple is being vindictive. We have had our share of challenging scouts and I'm sure we don't know the whole story because working with them is complicated. It's curious that looking for another troop is the easier solution. However, whatever you decide to do, I personally would ask for the floor at the next committee meeting and present your side of the story. I would also ask that the DE and a District Committee representative be present. Dealing with difficult adults can be wearing and it needs to be nipped in the bud. By the way, does the CC know and understand the situation? Barry

Actually, you originally stated that you (the adult) are the the judge of all three requirements and could take over the scouts program when you (the adult) judged any requirement is broken. I remember because that seemed pretty convenient since Safety, Acting Scout Like, and Fun are very subjective.Is the adult the only judge of the adult created conditions? Which leads to the question: are Safety, Scout Looks, and Fun, adult discretion or adult control? Barry

Yes, that's fine if that is their choice. My experience is that young scouts don't like missing out on stuff the other scouts are doing. Barry

There is very little you can really do about the way the troop has it set up presently. The BSA doesn't encourage this practice, but a surprisingly large number of troops administer their rank advancement program the same as yours. It is easy and takes the burden of responsibility off the troop. Sadly, it also reduces the quality of scout skills in the troop and doesn't give the scout much practice with independent decisions making for his own advancement process. He is basically stuck with a system that drives most of the scouts at the same speed. And what if the scout misses camp for whatever reason? During training I guided troops to develop a program that doesn't get in the way of a scout's personal ambition. But as I said, a surprising number of troops do most of their advancement at summer camp and MB college. There is one way you can help fix the problem. Become the Troop advancement chairman and develop the troop program to where scouts can advance at their speed. Basically get the scouts to work with Patrol leaders and older scouts to schedule meeting times before or after a meeting, at a patrol meeting like the one the set up for the MB, or during free time at camp. You can be an important difference here. Barry