Eagledad

Yes, well sort a. As you said, there many variables and they change. But the main objective is for the scouts to have fun. For that to happen, the adults have to enjoy what they are doing. So we build around making the program as fun for the adults as it is for the scouts. The Den leaders are only asked to plan and run three den meetings a month. That's it. The Pack plans one pack activity each month like a swimming party, campfire, roller skate night, pinewood derby, blue and Gold and so forth. Typically non registered parents plan all those activities. The pack does its annual planning every July so the CC can start recruiting as soon as possible. Also to help lessen the risk of burn out, just about every volunteer has an assistant that could take over if ever needed. That worked well for us during my first three years in Cub Scouts because we had three good committee chairmen transfer out of the state. Each time the assistant stepped in without missing a beat. We are pretty good at recruiting, so that helps us a lot. But some packs struggle getting volunteers leaving the adults to start taking on multiple duties. We teach pack leaders to instead scale down their program to save themselves from burnout. We encourage packs to focus first on high quality fun den meetings. Less than 50% of Webelos nationally crossover to troops. Boring den meetings were found to be the main reason that at least 70% of those scouts didn't continue on to the troops. The other pack activities are nice, but it is the den meetings that makes a fun rewarding program. So instead of a mediocre yearly agenda full of activities that wears out the adults. Focus "First" on quality Den programs, and then as the pack finds more resources, add the other activities. But don't take away from good quality den meetings. Fun den meetings start with enthusiastic adults planning and running those meetings. Do what it takes to keep the den leaders happy and enthusiastic with their responsibilities. As I said, to run a Pack program the way National presents it is way too hard for the average parent, so scale it down to make it workable and FUN for the adults. If the adults are enjoying the program, they will bring their kids. And isn't that really the point. Barry

You are asking a very good and very complex question. For one thing, many folks, including me, like to compare management for volunteer organizations the same as businesses. But over the years I learned the two are apples and orange from each other. A business has the time and money to train and groom its employees for long future expectations. Cub Scouts has five years “At Best†for training, grooming and leading, and then then they are gone. Businesses will eventually shutdown if they don’t create profit. But I have watched Scouting units doing the same wrong things over and over, without ever having to shut down only because they are fed new families every year which don’t know a good program from a bad one. Since there is little visible measurable profit to represent success in a pack, there is also little visible measurable failure. So the same old issues like burnout repeat themselves over and over. Businesses can sort out bad employees by asking them to move on. Asking bad volunteers to find another unit is very very rare because most folks would rather put up with bad volunteers than to be a confrontational bad guy. There is little incentive to be confrontational and demand better service in a volunteer organization. Despite some opinions on this forum, the BSA does provide pretty good training to manage a scouting unit. The problem is how closely a person chooses to use the training guidelines over their own instinctive approach. Some people are just terrible at scouting but love being the person everyone looks up to. There are very few mechanisms in the system to change that situation. I over the years have come to agree with you that burnout is the leading problem with struggling units, especially Cub packs. Cub Scouts is too long and too complicated for the average volunteer to manage. I say it again with capitals for emphasis: CUB SCOUTS IS WAY TOO COMPLICATED AND WAY TOO LONG FOR THE AVEAGE VOLUNTEER TO MANAGE. I learned in school that the average person is only motivated to give about 20 months of volunteer time to a volunteer organization. THAT IS LESS THAN TWO YEARS, and we expect adults to give us five years of enthusiastic service in the Cub program? Three is too much, but at least there is light at the end of the tunnel in the 3rd year. Five years is just a long dark cave with no end in sight. I advise adults to develop a program where adults are expected a maximum of three years of service. Use a retired Bear Leader to lead and run the Tiger program. Don’t recruit Tiger parents at all for anything and instead encourage them to observe and enjoy the program. Pick a Wolf Parent to assist the Cub Master for taking over the responsibility during their sons Bear year. Don’t encourage “any volunteer†to take on more responsibilities than the responsibilities they were specifically trained. I have seen so many Pack pile on their Den Leaders. Den Leaders should lead the Den and no more. CC should recruit none registered parents to plan and lead activities like Pinewood Derbies and Blue and Golds. If a pack can develop their program so that a volunteer joins knowing they are only expected to give NO MORE than three years of their time, then we find that the program not only become more manageable, it becomes more enjoyable for everyone. And when the adults are having fun, the boys will certainly have more fun. I did the research and found that packs where the adults had fun and weren’t burning out had a 90% crossover rate of Webelos. The reason is burned out adults don’t provide a fun program for the boys. The boys naturally have the same expectation for their future in scouting as the present. So if they aren’t having fun now, they don’t expect it to get any better next year. On the opposite side, happy adults who enjoy their volunteer work carry that into a fun program for the boys, which translate into boys looking forward to the next year’s adventure, including in the troops. And it all works. We created programs to help packs get to that point and the crossover numbers reflected the changes. Sadly I think National is working against us in the area of Cub Leader burnout because they keep adding responsibilities on the adults. But if the adults understand just how much they can do without getting burned out, then they can develop the program within those limits. Our pack worked pretty hard on that concept and our Tigers and Webelos crossover numbers were well above 90%. But the day I really appreciated how well our pack worked was when I attended the Eagle Court of Honor for one of my past Webelos. He said that while he had a lot of fun in the troop, Webelos in our pack was the most memorable time of his scouting career. That really says a lot more about the pack as a whole than my Webelos Den because the den was a result of a lot of work of the whole pack program. Hope this helps toward your question. Barry

Yes, troops usually see about a five year lag of membership change trends. I remember our membership committe predicting a negative trend in the troops as a result of Cub membership changes in 2000.

While I agree that marketing the BSA at the unit level is terrible, I would never put any of the blame of declining numbers on them. First of all, program marketing at the unit level today hasn't change much from the days when numbers were increasing. Second, units only provide the program that is given to them by National. They can't be blamed, negatively or positively, for changes that effect the program performance and public image. If the BSA desires to change its image, it will have to come from the top. Barry

Yah, that is pretty impressive. I look forward to future post. Barry

Well I know it seems compelling, but I don't think the economy has much play in the decline. I used to interview Webelos scouts and parents to learn why the families did or didn't crossover. I found the first response of families quitting weren't usually truthful because the reason was more complicated than a quick answer. Sports is typically the number one first reactionary or fake reason, but as I let them talk and open up about their Cub Scouting experience, the boys didn't enjoy the Cubs and just didn't see any fun in the future of scouting. The parents didn't want to hassle with it anymore. I have often said that Cubs is too long and burns out the adults resulting in a decline at all ages including Venturing. I could be wrong, but cost isn't that much different compared to other youth activities, so I have to believe these families are quitting for other reasons. As to what can be done to change scouting, I think there are some pretty good responses to changing scouting's image. Just how much marketing do we see on media for scouting anymore. How much recruiting is word of mouth? Barry

It was only a few days ago that Stosh suggested that Traditional Scouting was the wrong direction for running patrol method, so I'm not sure what this topic is all based from. We on the inside know where the program struggles and needs changes, but from the outside, the program as a whole is running against a big Pop Culture media ride where adventure requires little more physical or mental effort than turning on the TV and computer. Camping out doors is not appealing against video games. So scouting at the very least has an image challenge against technology. Go ask the average young teen what they would like to do next weekend and see how often fishing, hunting, hiking or camping comes up. At best you might get some biking in there somewhere. However, as I said, the culture is media driven. If National could and would spend the money required to saturate a young persons mind through media of a fun program that takes kids to part of the county they have never seen before, they might get somewhere. Barry

LOL, yah who knows how, where and when terms were made popular. We heard and learned the term back in 1995 by an backpacking guide. Not from scouting. But who knows where the they learned them. Barry

Probably true, but we learned term by LNT backpacking guides. Barry

Sumping is where the every single bit of food is consumed with the objective of leaving the cooking and eating utensils basically clean, basically. Then at the next meal time after a pot of water is brought to a boil, the cooking and eating utensils are dunked for sterilizing. Once sterilizing is done, cooking can be started using the boiled water. For the purpose of this discussion, sterilizing occurs first in the tasks of preparing and eating the meal instead of last and doesn't require additional water for clean up. It has drawbacks, like eating all the food even when it taste very bad (burned). Barry

Your system is good and appropriate, but has your crews tried sumping, because that method looses Zero water for cleaning? Our part of the country has been in a drought for several years and water can be hard to find in some areas. One gallon of water is pretty valuable. Barry

This is how I was trained and how we trained at least until 10 years ago. Sadly, it seems we have to tip-toe around the hierarchy to keep from offending each other anymore. We don't act like adults anymore because we don't have the maturity of adults, even in simple discussions like this. The SM reports to the CC because as was said, the buck has to stop somewhere. One of the suggestions we gave to all the units in our District is for the CC to attend SM Specific training so that they would have some understanding of the responsibilities they are responsible for filling. In my opinion. I also believe the CC is the most important person of the unit to attend Wood Badge because they need to understand the Vision and goals of the unit, as well as how to build a productive successful team. Which is the main objective of Wood Badge. How does the CC support the SM is they don't know objective of the program? I have found that most packs actually do function more under the CC being responsibile for the program by building a successful team including the CM who more or less does report to the CC. Troops don't do so well because the SM is seen as unit leader over everything. So they tend to be treated that way unless the SM is humble enough to respect the CC's responsibilties. Of course as others keep saying, the best units are the ones where the two leaders work closely together. Most of the time you find that adults in units where the two work well together are typically very unselfish. That is actually rare because volunteer organizations generally attract adults looking seeking attention and making a name for themselves. Barry

Nothing you said changes my point of taking care of the team and the members of your team. You write a lot of words excusing personal responsibilities, but it's as simple as the life motto of, "Do unto others as you would have them do to you." Barry

I don't see any of your sources conflicting with another. Some just get into more detail. However, maybe I'm wrong but I took this thread as a discussion of gray area between different adult leader positions, not a conflict with the Scoutmaster's (or Cub Master's) responsibilities. So in that light, what do the docs say about the Committee Chair and committee members? Isn't that really the gray area that Blw is suggesting? Barry

Come on Stosh, your troop has four scouts with you and your wife as the leaders, it's not typical. And it's not about whether or not adults were trained, it is about doing the right thing for group, which includes future replacement leaders. Trained or not, advising adults to not take responsibility for continuing a healthy unit is self-serving and a contradiction to servant leadership. It's just selfish. Also, training replacement leaders used to be part of training syllabuses, I'm assuming it still is. So we don't know if the trainers or the unit leaders failed. But the point is the same, take responsibility for present and future health of the unit. It's just the right thing to do. Barry

And here is what you said earlier:"Absolutely no difference. Now if Council/District would teach their adults appropriate leadership we wouldn't be having this discussion."" You basically said "It's not my problem". It has to start somewhere stosh, how about at home instead of waiting for someone else to tell us what to do. Barry

What do the job descriptions say? Barry

I'm also confused, how is this different from teaching the scouts to take care of their patrol or team members. (scratching my head on this one) Barry

You know, this is a good point. I don't remember if I intentionally did it for this reason, but I recruited and trained my replacement CM so I could be my younger son's Webelos leader. Good advice Slowderby. Barry

I see this as a different problem. Our troop relies on the scouts getting their guidance from documented resources because adult guidance is inconsistent and changes quickly. So the scouts are encourage to use the Scout Handbook. But what happens when the Handbook isn't always the best resource? The scouts fall back to what the closest adult recommends (requires) or another document. I remember once walking by a patrol and a scout yelling at me, "SM Barry, I can't remember the order of the three pot cleaning method?". And just as quickly before I could say it, he followed "Oh ya, look it up in the Handbook". I love it when a plan comes together. Of course Philmont and just about all the other High Adventure camps do it different because using three pots in the wilderness isn't practical. So now what is an independent thinking scout supposed to do? Barry

Right! As was said, " help them understand and work within the limits and capabilities of the troop." When we go down the path of lecturing other people of our personal values, we quickly find ourselves coming off insensitive and condescending of other peoples values. Just because we have a different opinion of the honor of Eagle doesn't mean we try to force the opinion on them. One of our first Eagles was scout who wasn't supposed to live past the age of four. He had been through 6 open heart surgeries by the time he joined the troop and had two more scheduled surgeries between age 16 and 20. His family put a very high value on every honor this young man accomplished in his life. There celebration for his Eagle was nothing less than a Wedding. Not far behind him was our Deaf Scout. His family was no less enthusiastic about his Eagle than the previous example for about the same reasons. When these families speak about their sons' accomplishment, they weep. They have grand dreams and don't want to be told that the celebrations to be equated to some quicky like running to the court house. In fact, they don't want your opinion at all. They just want to know the limitations of the troop so they can plan. Another one of our scouts has a family tradition of Eagles. It's almost a family trait and one the defines the men of this family. Your opinion isn't important. Allowing them to respect and celebrate the best they can within the limits of their dreams is all you have to do. So with respect we allow the families to deal with the details. We politely explain the limitations of the Troops and patrols then we stand back quietly and let the family do their thing. If they step beyond the limitations of the troop, then we with deep respect point out the limitations of the troop and then step back again. I have witnessed and participated in many ECOHs and have never seen an unreasonable request. I'm sure it occurs, but most families want to show as much respect for the troop as the troop has shown them. In this case, it appears it's prideful unit leaders that are the problem, not the family or scouts. Barry

That being said, Eagle can be very very important and personal for families for a variety of reasons; as important as a wedding in some cases. We have to be very careful to respect the families in these things and help them understand and work within the limits and capabilities of the troop. Barry

So how does Philmont instruct their crews now? It used to be boil a pot of water, dip all the eating and cooking utensils and then use the the water for cooking. Barry

Sorry, Troop Committee Chair. But I think you have have added more explanations to the whole situation since my question. Barry

Well I'm not an expert on laws, but if a SM called me to ask my experience with a scout wanting looking to join their troop, I would be clear in what they should expect without being critical or denigrating of the scout. As some already said, some units are better with these scouts than others, they need to know what to expect. All that being said, I'm with CP, it sounds like the ASM couple is being vindictive. We have had our share of challenging scouts and I'm sure we don't know the whole story because working with them is complicated. It's curious that looking for another troop is the easier solution. However, whatever you decide to do, I personally would ask for the floor at the next committee meeting and present your side of the story. I would also ask that the DE and a District Committee representative be present. Dealing with difficult adults can be wearing and it needs to be nipped in the bud. By the way, does the CC know and understand the situation? Barry