Eagledad

Fun discussion, OP expresses a frustration of how the culture is changing (Barry's translation: No morality), and it's the same old responses; nothing is changing and everyone will be fine as soon as We force You to see it our way. I was driving by one of our local Young Women's Christian Associations (YWCA) and a big sign hangs from the building that says "We Fight Against Racism. That seemed odd to me, I don't know why. Of course there is very little "Christian" in the YWCA anymore. They used to be a sanctuary for all women struggling in one way or another. But Ironically they don't women who's religion believes homosexuality is a sin. AND I'm told that women aren't welcome if they are anti abortion. Very complexe because isn't the YMCA a sanctuary for unwed mothers? Or used to be anyway. And we are suppose to believe everything will be OK once the BSA gives in to allowing gay adult leader role models with the so called local option? Then the next battle will be to admit transsexual scouts. And then the trans adult leader role models. But we can take comfort in that it's not about sex. I saw a definition the other day for all this cultural non-change stuff: "State Religion" Barry

We had a mom and son visit us three times. I asked her the third time what they liked about the troop and she said she didn't like it much at all because it basically looked disorganized. But her son loved it because the scouts ran the program. He would have joined after their first visit, but she kept bringing him back hoping he would change his mind. They joined the forth visit. He and his two younger brothers all got their Eagles in our troop. Mom became our best recruiter and CC the troops ever had. Once she saw how boy run worked, she thought it was the best program in the world for boys growing up. Her middle son was also on the soccer team I coached. He is now a surgeon. Barry

I have personally recruited all my replacements. I also personally recruited all our committee chairs. Pick out someone you think would be good for the job and give them an opportunity to try their hand. Many folks are a little shy for volunteering, but will say yes when asked personally. Barry

The first year I was a CM, I ask a den of 5 Webelos why they chose the troop they were just about to crossover into. They all agreed that this troop had the best game of all the troops they visited. All 5 had quit within six months. Adults have to be partners in the process. Barry

I was a pretty strong SM with a pretty good boy run reputation at the district/counsel levels. Two weeks before the official handoff, the next soon to be SM took me out for coffee to request I give him two months of meetings and camp outs before I came back to the troop. He said he needed a clear break from Barry Scouts (said it just like that) because he could never live up to my style of Scoutmastering. It kind of hurt at first, but I also experienced a SM who hung around to long because he couldn't let go. The two months was perfect to get both of us use to our new roles. I think you need to invite the SM for coffee because you won't get anything done at summer camp otherwise. I'm sure he is a good man, but few are that good and you will be doing him a favor. I know it took our new SM a lot of courage to make that request of me, but it was the right thing to do. Barry

Satisfaction Q? The Golden Rule without with sense of the environment is a careless approach on this subject. Also I seem to be talking about youth and you go back to adults. I hate to drop names because we should be trusted in what we say here, but Moose needs more. I simply don't agree with your generalization Q. And one of several friends on the subject is a practicing child psychologist in both the private and public sides. He is also an Eagle Scout, was a SM, and a Silver Beaver. Hope that helps Mooose. But he says that issues with children's sexuality is often the parents and the government causing the problems. That and many other reasons why I feel we should not encourage these things with scouts. It's one thing for a messed up adult to look back and blame the parents. But add to that scouts? Also Moose, I work pretty close with a cross gender person who made that choice at age 61. He freely admits he was raised in a very abusive screwed up family and that is likely the cause of his choice. I'd like to hear his...her psychologist response to that. My point is that more than likely in my opinion the children have less choice than some would to want to feel good about this. Volunteers in scouting should not be put in a situation of encouraging harm to these children. Barry

I totally understand what you are saying LeCaster. In fact I stay here to bring some balance. But from my observation, it wasn't and isn't the discussions on th I & P forum that drove people out, it was the I civility in the scouting forums. There was a time not to long ago that parents and inexperienced leaders were basically told they weren't welcome. Once balanced and helpful discussions become the norm in the scout specific threads, I think the members will start building again. Barry

Ah, so the rule is determined by the number of friends and work associates. Does work assiates gives us higher authority than friends, and what about family members, how do they rate in your system of Giving opinions. And I must say, you think we don't have psychologist friends, family, scout parents, and work associates? The world is a politically correct mess right now. It's no place for youth scouting organizations. Barry

Isn't it interesting how we think our experience trumps everybody else's. From my personal experience with and around this subject, I can say with a clear conscience that encouraging youth along these paths is very dangerous and no business of youth scouting organizations. Barry

You assume too much. There are some here who clearly have a self serving agenda. Barry

So as a group, we think encouraging children to behave In unusual questionably healthy behavior is a morally good thing? Barry

Oh sure you can, even the small changes can be tracked. I'm sure this one is a no brainier. However, as you are showing, as long as the outside problems keep the focus, the real problems on the inside will not get enough attention. So it won't (cannot) get better. Barry

TAHAWK, between IOLs and WB, adults get enough exposure to patrol method to understand the intended structure. The problem with the WB Course previous to the 2000 course was that it was not intended to teach adults the process of patrol method. The patrol structure was only used as the basis for the adults to observe teaching techniques. The course was was intended for experienced adults who already understood how patrol method worked toward boy growth. The previous course was an advanced course designed for experienced scouters ready for advanced skills. But by the the late 1990s, most of the participants (as well as much of the staff) were not ready for the advanced skills being presented. They misunderstood and confused the lesson objectives. When adults don't understand the bigger picture of why the method works, they tend to copy and force it in there own troop exactly as they experienced it. That is what caused the failure of the course. As I was saying, the challenge for National is how to indoctrinate new adult leaders into a program that 3/4 of them have never experienced. The BSA program is being shaped by those adults. Barry

I guess I'm a bit more methodical on this. As a numbers person, I know the BSA has internal problems that far far out weigh uniforms and local option (uniforms?). For the past 15 years posters have been proclaiming that allowing gays would change the trend of lowering numbers. Yet, there was no evidence to suggest it. However, we can track declines by policy changes, specifically in Cubs. I haven't seen the numbers the last two years, but I'm quite confident that allowing gay scouts didn't fix the declining trend. Now we think, the local option will do the trick? I'm with the guys who want to get back to the adventure. While I don't think allowing patrols to camp without adults will change most troop programs, it is indicative of National going back to the outdoors. And, a simpler cub program that the average adult can manage on a couple hours a week will help reduce the burnout problem that is killing us. The BSA looses more than 50% of 2nd year Webelos. 1st year Webelos and Bears aren't that far behind. And most of that is attributed adult leader burnout. All that being said, I'm not confident a new executive chief can even see the real problem in two years, much less fix it. A bold move would be to shake up the lower ranks National a bit to find those with a passion for the vision again. Barry

That's exactly why the old WB was closed. Participants will get plenty patrol method modeling in the courses, but that's not patrol method is really about. It's easy to teach the mechanics and structure of Patrol a Method, but understanding the results is very different of a gang of boys stuck together is not something that can be seen in a few hours by adults pretending to be scouts. if you as a new adult who had never seen a Boy Scout patrol had just spent two days being in a patrol with a PL, APL, and all the other patrol positions, what are you going to do when you get back to your troop? I learned in a class in college that group must work together about 35 hours before group dynamics "starts" take effect. That is barely a camp out for the average troop. From the stories I've heard, likely the only course where adult participants experienced some patrol method was the old WB course at Philmont because they were stuck together for seven days. Most troops don't realize that summer camp is the most intense patrol method for their scouts. Ever notice how the worst of everyone comes out about Wednesday of camp? That is why adults who experienced scouting as a youth have a leg up. They know the routine of boys living together. It's noy just about the PL holding control and everybody working together in ideal conditions (WB, IOLs, SM Fundamentals). Patrol method is finding your character when your not in the mood. You kind of have to be there to get it. I don't know the answer of how to prepare clueless adults with minimum skills to manage 50 boys in the woods with the objective of developing them into moral decision makers. What skills do they really need to know, knots or servant leadership? They can build patrols, but are they doing patrol method? It is said, and I agree, that a SM needs about three years to be a productive scout leader. How long does it take the rest of the adults? I've staffed just about all adult traing classes since the early 90s and none of them really prepare adults for patrol method because it has to be seen in action. Barry

You have no idea how valuable you are good. The original Woodbadge course was designed to teach SMs better teaching techniques, not scout skills. But as the course started accepting low experienced scouters, the WB staffs forgot the original objective. As a result, the course was doing negative training in the later years before it scrapped the course in 2000 for the course we have now. The problem the BSA is facing now is how to bring the present generation of adult leaders up to a working speed for helping boys developing character through an outdoor program. At issue is about 75 % of new scouters today were not boy scouts as a youth. WB today is not designed to teach adults the patrol method or experts in scout skills. It is designed to teach how to build working teams for managing scout units of all ages. But adults aren't comfortable with taking boys in the woods without better training. I think the BSA Hasn't found yet how to get new adults up to operation status. The experienced scouter is becoming more and more valuable. Barry

i guess this is the wrong discussion to mention how I think the tiger program has wreck the whole BSA program. Until the BSA aloud gay scouts, Tigers was the number one cause of cub adults and scouts quitting. I saw the problem back in 1995; it's just Seattles last straw. Barry

Where all the scouts woods tools trained? If they were, I might have let them go and showed up a little later to offer my services for the fire. I do think we have ranted about boy run to the point that adults are afraid to do anything, which causes more problems when the program stalls. What's important is for adults to evaluate there actions and measure the results, just like we suggest to the scouts. In my opinion the adults do it wrong more than the scouts. But if they change to try to do it better the next time, the program moves forward and matures. Barry

It sure was for me. We could measure a lot of growth from the uniform method. It is a great tool for developing maturity because it is so challenging for both the scouts and adults. Like any of the methods, you just have to know your goals and how to apply the tools toward those goals. I really really don't believe the uniform is the make or break of a youth program. Barry

Good to here that some things don't change. Barry

Use to be the best youth leadership training a scout could get, is NOAC still that way. Barry

No, when he met his second wife. LOL It's true. Barry

Both the BSA and GSUSA are going (actually GSUSA has been there a long time) progressive and 4H is not. Barry

Liberal atheist "dad". And a proud democrate. As you can imagine we don't get much into political discussions because they never go well. We have scouting in common. Interesting story, he was a Scoutmaster at the age of 15 because all the men were at war. He became a liberal when he personally met Elenaor Roosevelt. I know what you are thinking, how could we be so different. Me a visionary and him so gullible. LOL Barry

LOL, I'm trying to figure out how you would convince my liberal democrate atheist dad that your religion has anything to do with the biology of a man born to want a man. Barry