Eagledad

I have had to aggravatingly deal with more than one first year scout parent on this very issue. I'm at a loss to why they want their 11 year old son to earn this badge at their first summer camp. So I can fully appreciate the camp wanting some prier BSA documentable proof the scout is qualified to sign up for the badge before the troop arrives to camp. It saves time and hassle in the long run. Barry

The problem with all that Horizon is understanding how doing any of those actions (non actions) benefits the scouts. The perception of scouting is easy in that by going camping grows a boy's character. But when the adults get into the nitty gritty parts of the program, they lack the vision and wisdom as to why allowing a scout to fail develops positive growth. I've use the example several times of the Uniform method; how many adults can give a scout an explination for uniforming that makes sense to him? A parent does everything in their power from the day their son is born until now to protect him from struggling, now you want the parent to change that habit? Adults have to be willing to understand what they are doing and why they are doing it. Then they have to be willing to continually change so the unit doesn't develop habits and traditions that hold older scouts to expectations of young scout maturity. Honestly, we are asking a lot of these parents. We are asking them to change everything they know about raising children and start learning how to develop adults. So you can't just simply say, "Ah, chaos is part of patrol method, ITS OK!". That simple explanation not only doesn't make sense, it also makes you look incompetent for taking their son out into the wilderness. A better explanation is something like, "It's not chaotic to them, It only looks chaotic to us adults because scouts react slower to situations that are new to them while the reaction is obvious to us experienced parents. You will see them get faster and better as they practice more.". Scouting is the real world scaled down to a boys size so that they scouts learn real world actions to real world situations in a safe environment. Safe meaning that it is not only ok for a scout to make a mistake, mistakes are actually welcome because we know human nature drives us to learn through adversity, not security. LOL, I actually taught a course for helping unit adults get past their fears of giving scouts the independence to make their own decisions and live with the results. I developed that course for a new troop that had no adults with previous scouting experience (all women). They wouldn't even allow their scouts to perform opening ceremonies because they feared that failure of not doing a perfect opening would hurt the scouts (their sons') self esteem. We need to help adults understand the goals of building character and how every action contributes to that goal. Once they get on track to understanding how independent thought and decision making leads to better character and decision making processes, the adults jump on board accepting the challenges of a patrol method program. Barry

It's an interesting visual of Scouting, I counted a full third of the participants at the last WB course I staffed to be grossly over weight. I think grossly is being fair. Obesity seems to stick out at multi-unit scouting events (at least in Oklahoma) and I worry about the image it leaves on the public. Fitness is one of the three Aims; does scouting have some unique attraction with out-of-shape adults in a program that is supposed to set the example of taking care of ones self both mentally and physically? I don't know, but we lost a Council leader at Philmont a few years ago as a result of his health and I know some very good scouters who can't sleep overnight in tents because of issues associated with their weight problem. It is a difficult subject to even discuss. Barry

OK, we have different philosophies, "We don't do advancement at Troop meetings". I didn't do advancement at troop meetings when I was a scout in the 60s and 70s, and we don't do it now. It wasn't just you stosh, a few others mention doing advancement as well. Advancement is for "Advancing" in rank. Rank is each scouts responsibility to do outside of troop meetings. Advancement is left to the scouts and patrols to figure out. The scouts arrange that at their patrol meetings or on camp outs if the PLC builds it into the agenda. We believe scouting is an adventure, the same adventure for new and older scouts. If maturity or skills have to be adjusted for the general activity, then the scouts make arrangements for those considerations like reducing a backpacking hike for new scouts to a shorter distance and a more experience patrol, but how would that change the troop meeting? And honestly we are a pretty active troop and it is rare that not all scouts can partcipate at most levels. Before you assume some answer to slam us old timers that do more traditional scouting, we just don't do it your way. All our scouts participate in the same activities. I don't even believe in sending younger scouts to a different summer camps. Patrol Method works best when everyone participates together. And it works very well. We don't even have age restrictions on our high adventure treks. If the scout has the maturity and skill to participate, he can sign up for the trek. Only Philmont and BSA Boundary Waters sets that limit for us if we participate in their treks. But we do our own Backpacking and Canoeing Boundary Waters treks anyways, so age rarely restricts young scouts in our adventure treks. Barry

Our troop has not run a Summer Camp, but we have done other things like it and it does take a bit of planning. Program is easy because it is basically the same thing as camp outs, but more of it. We try to find the right property that can handle some of the activities like hiking, biking and fishing. A lot can be added if you are near the right areas like horse back riding, boating and shooting sports. All depends what activities the troop wants and where you go. But by far the biggest logistical challenge is food and meals. When you start to realize how much food needs to be keep at safe temperatures for a week, you understand the day to day planning required for safe food handling. Very difficult to be handled at the patrol level and requires a team to plan and execute. However, I have never known a troop that didn't come back from its own summer camp that wasn't excited to do it again. There is a certain level of bonding and growing maturity with all the scouts and adults that is hard to reach at Council camps. It really pulls a troop together. Barry

What? So why are the younger scouts left out of the fun stuff? Barry

Jungle boots are what our crews used also. The Academy boots are cheap and held up ok 15 years ago. Take duct tape just in case. A couple scouts did fine with running shoes, but they wore wool socks. I was worried about their ankle support. I have sinced used low top fishing hiking shoes and the are the best. But these aren't typical water shoes, the are high quality hiking shoes designed for water, mud, rocks and tough hiking. My shoes have been on two Boundry Water treks on the Canadian side, as well as other tough hikes around the world. I just recently used them to hike up a 2000 ft muddy trail in Hawaii with my wife. I admit we have never used two different types of shoes for Northern Teir like CP suggest. Never even thought about it. But I can't see doing a trip without any shoe getting wet and muddy, so I don't see the advantage. Some portages are only 30 seconds long and can get backed up with several crews waiting to cross. When it's your turn, everyone behind your crew expects you get out and move out fast. Not a lot of time or space on those entry points to change shoes, but we have not tried it either. The key to comfortable feet are the wool socks. I like to use thin Coolmax liners as well. No matter how wet they get, the feet feel dry. Take two pair, one to dry while wearing the other. Have a great trip, Northern Teir is a lot of fun. Barry

I can't tell if you are being clever or or nieve, but that is not at all what he said. Barry

Only Seven percent of all ASMs I polled at Wood Badges admitted they had read the whole Scoutmaster Handbook. Sadly the truth is most adults don't really care about the details of building character, they just know it's part of scouting and would rather leave the details to the SM. When you explain it, they start to fall asleep. Character is the SMs job, the rest are fine with the SM telling them what to do. But, it is important that the SM be able explain why they are doing what they're doing so that there is buy in to the SMs program. Does that make sense? That is why the SM is the gatekeeper of the vision. As long as the SM can consistently repeat the same vision and explain how what they are doing it is going in a positive direction toward the vision, the other 95% are perfectly happy to follow the plan. The reason for knowing and understanding the Aims and Methods is so the SM can explain the roles of scouts and adults in a scout run troop. After every election, I explained to both the PLC and ASMs that the adults were responsible for: scouts fitness, citizenship and character (three aims). The way the adults achieve the Aims is by the scouts actively: using the the Scout Oath and Law, using patrols, camping outdoors, advancing, a mature relationship with adults, reflecting on personal performance of Doing A Good Turn, leadership and uniform. In other words the "Eight Methods". As long as the scouts take personal responsibility for the Eight Methods, the adults will not interfere with their program. Pretty simple really. That is how I taught and defined the roles for the adults in the boy run troop. The adults are supposed to be passive to the scouts actions as long as the scouts are working toward "growth" in the Fitness, Citizenship, and Character. "Passive"means stand back and stay out of the scouts way. The scouts are on the other hand working "actively" with the Eight Methods. That is where the line is drawn. But, for that to work successfully, the SM has to be able to define how each of the eight methods work toward any or all of the three aims because many challenges will come up In the grey area. In fact I challenged each PLC that if I (SM) couldn't explain how a scout activity or action worked toward any Aim, I would let them take it out of the program. It also protects the scouts from the adults. If the troop has a low performing SPL and the adults start bulking, the wise Scoutmaster points out that character spawns from adversity, not prosperity. The other thing not being discussed here is the factor of maturity. It doesn't take much reasoning to understand that a 17 year old Scout is more capable of making decisions because they have more experience and wisdom. So the responsibilities or roles of the adults and scouts boy changes as a scout grows from his experiences. A responsible adult isn't going to drop off a new NSP by themselves without training, but a patrol with scouts of several years experience in most cases shouldn't be a problem. But boy constant growth and maturity "requires" that the adults grow and mature with their responsibilities well or they will find themselves in the way and restricting scout growth. Just like we wouldn't give an 11 year old SPL the same responsibilties we give a 17 year old, we also wouldn't restrict the 17 year old SPL with the same independence we gave the 11 year old. The adults have to continually grow and adapt to the scouts growth. I've said before, as adults we screwed up a lot, but we were humble And made adjustments so as not to keep repeating those mistakes. Guiding the adults to change and adapt along with the scouts can be a difficult responsibility for a shy SM who struggles with directing adults. But the SM is the guard of the vision, he/she must keep that in mind. I've gone way too long, hope this helps. Barry

Just checking! You passed. Lol

Yes quite so. There are two truths that most experienced leaders agree on: troops work to a size that fits the SM style of leading, and every SM has a different style that works for them. Also, each SM has different personal goals for their scouts, which is how they measure the success of their leadership style. As a scout in the 60s and 70s, we used mixed age patrols. I never saw a patrol of scouts all the same until I became a scout leader in 1992. All my patrol leaders had their drivers license and they took very good care of us. We all aspired to be like them. Our troop of 6 patrols was very boy run. Each patrol camped out of sight and sound of each other. That is a big deal now, but not back then. In fact most troops were like this in our area. So it makes since that as adults we tried to build the same troop for our sons. But National had just started this NSP patrol thing and was making mixed age patrols a challenge for us. Plus, our new troop of 18 scouts had 12 Webelos, so we gave same age patrols a try. Right off the bat we found that even with a troop guide that NSPs require more adult intervention for growth than we want to give. We found that without the constant. And consistent wisdom of older scouts, young scout growth either stagnates or comes from somewhere else, adults. National placed Troop Guides (TP) in the program to fix the problem, but we found over the years that TG direction is not natural growth for younger scouts and eventually peaks out at the limits of TG (6 months on average). From our perspective, TG direction is more class room style teaching where mixed age was more observational and natural to human behavior of boys this age. TG style of growth is more intrusive where growth from observing is more intuitive from our perspective. For several reasons, we had mixed age patrols working side by side with same age patrols and NSP patrols and clearly the growth of scouts in mixed age patrols advanced the fastest in character, confidence, skills and importantly for us, a servant attitude. As I said before in the discussion, we eventually developed had a high retention rate in our troop with 45% of our scouts being 14 and older. Our personal goals drive many of our decisions and mine are leadership development and character. I think anyone who follows me on these forums will agree that those two qualities are on the top of my list for developing a program that helps boys build habits that lead to making moral and ethical decisions. If your goal is a program of building character leadership, you share my passions. As adults, I think we made mistakes 50% of the time, but we were always trying to change those parts that work so as not to repeat the mistakes. To do that, the program has to have a vision of success to compare daily performance. Our troop had a reputation in district and council as wild cat troop that didn't follow the rules. Not that they thought we were bad, just the opposite, we averaged 2 new scouts a month from other troops. Some of those were local, but many were were transfers moving in town and were sent by the DE because of our reputation for fun and adventure. By the way, we had no desire to be a fast growing troop, our goal was about 25. But it didn't work out that way. However, as a district and council trainer, I took great pride in that weren't doing anything outside of BSA boundaries. It was the other troops that had fallen in bad habits which made our troop look so different. Eventually someone in council asked if I would created and lead a course of how to be a more "boy run" troop. In the end, the course wasn't much more than a review of Aims and Methods, and how to apply them. Short quiz: how many reading now can recite the four Aims and seven Methods? Lol The reason most troops struggle to define boy run is because they don't know or understand the program basics. I was once honored to be invited on a forum way back when with other scouters who had successful boy run programs. These guys made me feel small in their wisdoms on the subject. One of these guys said something that I have found to be very true, the best boy run leaders typically have an above average knowledge of the present BSA program and are students of Baden Powell, Green Bar Bill, seton, Beard and other source of traditional patrol method wisdoms. I used to poll our Wood Badge courses and found that less than 20% of SMs had read the whole SM Handbook. Less than 7% of ASMs had done the same. Not that I can't blame them, the handbook is a top notch snoozer. But I think it is indicative of adults with a higher level of passion. I guide new SMs to use the PL and SPL handbooks instead until they got comfortable. For me, it's not about mixed age or same age, it's very much about best growth with the resources of the moment. That is why I can explain the performances of different styles of patrols depending on circumstances. I did the same thing in Cubs to triple our retention rate. But after all the time and effort to build a prducing patrols using the BSA program and modifications to improve their performance, I have concluded that National implemented three program changes that I believe have caused the most damage to the troop program: NSP, First Year First Class (FYFC), and Venturing Patrols. I believe those changes are the reason adults today struggle to inject boy run in the program. Don't take that as being anti National, I am not. They are just pragmatic conclusions from years years of applying and observing the scout program at the unit, district and council levels. I also beleave that we can't go back to the great days of traditional scouting when boys were truly given independence to learn about their boundaries of making good decisions because we have too many generations of adults who only understand the newer less boy run program. But I'm here because I love this scouting stuff and I want to help other scouts and scouters have experiences as rich as mine. There will always be those few who want better than a mediocre program, so I'm here to share our mistakes as well as our successes to help them work toward a better performing patrol method program. And I will also be a balance for those who think they are the end all to scouting and feel they have to demean everyone else to make there point. If a pragmatic case can't be made, then it's just another egocentric theory. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Sheesh, we get. You have demeaned, belittled, demonized any scouter who beleaves in mixed age patrols. You make up scary hyperbole of adults with successful troops and now demonize them to the point of bullying. If you converted anybody, it was long before your story of the scary mean old boy run mixed age patrol adult leader trolls under the bed. If it helps you feel better about yourself, I concede that stosh scouts is better than traditional scouting. Ok that is silly, nothing is better than traditional scouting; but your juvenile bullying is embarrassing for scouters in an adult scouting forum. MOVE ON! Barry

Go to any gay pride parade. Barry

Agree 100 percent. In fact I tell troop leaders in training that the quality of a troop is measured by the older scout part of the program. We not only had a 75% retention up to 16 year olds, we average one older scout from other troops switching to our troop. Reputation travels far. I also worked all around using NSPs and eventually only used them their first six months if we had more new scouts joining than two per patrol. The BSA looses more scouts in the first 6 months of a boys troop experience than any other age. We suffered over 50% losses of new scouts our first couple years, but eventually brought that number up to over 90% retention after learning how over the years. In fact, the reason National created the NSP program was to raise the first year number up. I did some research around 2005 to see how much the NSP had improved the national retention rate of first year scouts and found it had not changed it at all. It's a difficult problem to solve, but NSPs turned out not to be the fix. It sounds like TAHAWK went kind of the direction we eventually found. I personally believe the NSP has caused more damage to true boy run patrol method than any other program change made at the Boy Scout level because if forces the adults to get more involved. Like TAHAWK, I don't like talking about our program because it comes off bragging. But I do think both of us want to help others have the same success with true patrol method programs like we experienced. Barry

No way around it, NSP has to be more adult run for the scouts to grow. The BSA added troop guides to help the problem, but they don't make up for experienced patrol mates. Adults have to step in our the boys quit. Even stosh admitted this as he talked about working with his four scouts the last year. Barry

TGs were created 1990 (1989?) to replace the older scouts of the traditional scout program. I've never seen a good TP that was 14 and younger TP. I've never been less than impressed with a TP that was 16 and older. I grew to respect ages and stages. Barry

ah, I see what you are saying, traditional scouting was adult run. Still, it was successful for a long time, how do you account for that stosh? Barry

Stosh, you didn't answer the question, how do you think Scouting stood the test of time with mixed age patrols? Barry

Sadly you had to finish with hypothetical make believe to impress your point because you don't beleave the rest of your post can hold your opinion. There is no mention of age based patrols in the BSA or Baden Powells scout's because there wasn't any need for the definition until 1990 when the program was change to add New Scout Patrols (NSP). Until then scouts joined troops individually when they qualified by age, not in groups of Webelos the way it is now. That is when the terms aged based and boy run became descriptive terms of the troop program. You may find old timers like me who were in same age patrol before 1990, but it was rare. So scouting not only survived with mixed age patrols for almost 80 years, the organization became legend. Now you may may want to debate what defines a tradition scout program, but for me it was up until age based patrols were introduced in 1990. I don't know why you feel you have to demonize mixed age patrols to impress your point. I respect that your style of leading lends itself better with same age scouts. However, I don't respect your style of trying make your point. Can't you just say I'm more comfortable with same age patrols and let that stand for your opinion? I have a lot of experience with both mixed age and same age patrols so I can discuss with the best of them on both sides. Barry

Stosh, your theory for a successful patrol method program is based off the premise of using same age patrols. However, same age patrols are not the designed structure of the traditional patrol method in Baden Powells scouts nor the BSA. How do you explain the long standing successes of traditional scouting without same age patrols? Barry

In all my years as a youth and adult in scouting, I've never heard of that happening. In fact, I found the opposite more the reality when I worked with older scouts on JLTC (NYLC) courses. As much as "boy run" is given credit for patrols excelling past patrols in adult run troops, adults are, more often than not, the catalysts for scouts thinking out-of-box. Some boys need to be shown how to look at the world outside their window, some boys just need permission. Whatever the reason, show me scouts who follow their dreams and I'll show great adults somewhere in the shadows. Experienced SMs know what I'm talking about. Barry

Lol, All I read is nothing is changing and everyone will be fine as soon as you see it my way. Barry

So you are a Bob White! Lol

Interesting idea. I know a lot of troops have elections before the new scouts join because their votes can mislead the results. Your idea would actually set an example for new scouts. Barry

It's contriversal because there is an illusion of getting more from the course than intended. It's a course of learning how set realistic goals to move toward a vision and building a team to help achieve those goals. But many hope to be converted to experts in scout skills and patrol method. That is not what the course is about. As the course ASM for Troop Guides, I was responsible for approving all the participants tickets, so I can give some advice. Ticket items are supposed to toward your vision of your responsibility. I find that many participants don't really know what their responsibility is. Some are new and just haven't been given any expectations or title, so I advise they sit down with the person who is guiding them. Some participants have several responsibilities at different levels of the program like Eagle94, so they aren't really sure where to apply the tickets. I suggest they see themselves two years down the road and consider the applying the tickets in that direction. Also folks don't see themselves in the big picture of the program. A CM considers assisting the Webelos leader because the den struggles. I suggest they instead recruit assistant leaders at all levels and getting them trained. A much smaller ticket item in terms of effort, but much more important for overall unit performance. I tend to push people to think big in terms of their future, but small in tickets toward that future. Same goes with scouter who already feels over burden; I have a thing for burnout, so I guide those adults to change or tweek their responsibilities to be less stressful. Yes, changing task to make your life easier can be a ticket item. I fact, I try to guide most ticket items toward that direction. I dont like and didn't allow ticket items that forced control over the scouts like getting all first year scouts to first class in one year. I instead ask them to build the program so a scout is not hindered to advance at a pace of his choosing. Another common ticket is changing a part of the program without approval from the unit leaders like changing the patrol age structure without discussing it with the SM. As for how to approach WB, the two groups of adults who struggle the most are the adults who think they all ready know it all and want to keep reminding everyone of their knowledge. As I said, this is not a scout skills patrol method teaching course (50% of our participants are cub leaders), so even the best of us can learn about setting goals and building functional teams. The other group that struggles are the adults that think they have a better way and want to debate every subject in the course. Some folks have a chip on their shoulder because some Wood Badger in their past was a little uppity. I advise both these folks to relax and not be so tempted to influence other participants own personal experiences. WB is an enjoyable course if you are willing to open your mind. Most course teams are very good, but they are only as good as the course director. Once in a while, well it's a shame really. Don't over think WB. It's not the end all course it used to be. In fact it really is more the beginning all if done correctly. And if you don't get to be a Bob White, well that is still ok. Barry